Your Top 20 Favourites (or Best) in ENGLAND

[Peter Pallotta]

Brian, Sean - I've been focusing my reading in my recently received Confidential Guide on England. Oh, you lucky bastards! To this outside observer of all things golfing related, it seems certain that for sheer density and variety of wonderful courses and great courses and courses to play everyday there is no place in the world that comes close to England. I want to play St. George Hill and Swinley and Deal and Walton Heath, yes, but I also want to play Little Aston and Delamere Forest and Camberly etc etc. I'm happy that someone gets a chance at all of these, even if that someone isn't me.

Peter

[Duncan Cheslett]

You're so right Peter, we are so lucky.

Imagine my bewilderment then, when the highlight of many English golfers' year is a trip to Turkey or Thailand!

[Adam Lawrence]

You're so right Peter, we are so lucky.

Imagine my bewilderment then, when the highlight of many English golfers' year is a trip to Turkey or Thailand!

It isn't really that bewildering. We all want what we can't have, and by the time February or March comes around the appeal of golf in shorts with guaranteed sun on your back and an ice cold beer at the turn isn't so hard to figure out.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sheehy

I thought if we compare best to best in England that our top 20 would be quite similar.  I count 13 the same and you haven't played Formby or St Enodoc...so a possibility of 15...very like of mind.  While I can understand Little Aston, Saunton and Burnham not being included, I am very surprised by the exclusion of Rye and Ganton.  Where we wildly differ is New Zealand.  I like the course and really enjoy the day there, but I don't think its terribly close to top 20. 

Ciao

West Sussex is the champion all you fellas regularly seem to miss off these lists....

[Paul Gray]

Temporary hijack in play - As I'm waiting until Christmas to get my copy, can anyone tell me what lowly mark Hayling got? I know Tom played it quite a few years ago and it wasn't too great then and it's currently not as it should be so I'm expecting the current mark to be a fair bit below where we could be at.

[Paul Gray]

Ally,

Like some others on this list, West Sussex was one I only played once. Whatever frame of mind I was in at the time, it didn't blow me away, but I recall seeing a lot of very cool stuff - it's just a bit different to the other Heathland courses in Surrey. I need to get back there...

Cheers,
B.

Most notably the fact that it isn't in Surrey. 

[Sean_A]

Stoneham over Burnham and Saunton? Kington will raise some eyebrows too. No Berkshire? No Hunstanton? I must admit I always had the Doak scale pretty much on it but thats weird.

Cant say I have heard of anyone saying Stoneham being in the top drawer, not in many top 100s let alone 20.

Wentworth is still top 20 in England, not in says its not top 60 GB & I. That cant be right. If you have Stoneham above Wentworth you need sectioning!

Adrian:

Perhaps I'm slightly too enthusiastic on Stoneham, but its position on this "top 20" is exaggerated because I'm the only one who saw it and I was very pleasantly surprised.  That is exactly why such rankings are so ridiculous.  If you look at Saunton's ratings from the four of us [7 7 7 6] vs. Stoneham [7 - - -] you do not get upset at all, you just think I've got Stoneham one point too high.  Most of the other courses you mentioned get a 7 from at least one of us, but more 6's than 7's.  They are all worth playing.

Wentworth is another story.  None of us have been back since they tried to make the finishing hole look like the TPC at Sawgrass, or any of the other changes, so we don't really have a rating for it.  I did not have it in the top 20 in England before the changes -- it would have a hard time scraping into my top 50, to be honest -- so I am not too concerned that we are missing the boat.  

Tom

Did GCA.Com cause you to revise many scores? Stoneham is now a 6 in the guide.

Ryan

Stoneham is fresh meat for this edition.

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

The thread lists it as a 7 which a few found surprising. The book (which arrived in the UK within a week if ordering) lists it as a 6, which I was questioning whether there was a rethink?

[Marc Haring]

Here's mine:

1.   Sunningdale New
2.   Royal St Georges
3.   Royal Birkdale
4.   Sunningdale Old
5.   Berkshire Red
6.   Berkshire Blue
7.   Swinley Forest
8.   Saunton East
9.   St Enodoc
10.   St Georges Hill
11.   Walton Heath Old
12.   Walton Heath New
13.   Woking
14.   Rye
15.   Burnham and Berrow
16.   Royal Ashdown Forest
17.   Worplesdon
18.   Saunton West
19.   Hankley Common
20.   Alwoodley


I've been lucky as in nearly every case I managed to get on FOC. Couldn't afford it now.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Her's mine arranged in groups of five but not ranked 1-5 in each group.

Royal Birkdale
Woodhall Spa
Ganton
Sunningdale New
Sunningdale Old

Walton Heath
Brancaster
Notts
Royal St Georges
Royal Cinque Ports

Royal Lytham
RAF
Swinley Forest
St Geroges Hill
Hunstanton

Little Aston
Woking
Formby
Blackmoor
Burnham and Berrow

plus one
Northumberland

[Mark Pearce]

plus one
Northumberland

I have to say I didn't expect to see The Northumberland on one of these lists!  I'd love to know when you played the course and what about it raised it (nearly) into such exalted company?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark,
I really threw it out there exactly for this reason to get some attention to the course.
For one how rare to have a Briad/Colt design inside a racetrack and to me the place was just charming.
good holes, great routing and a joy to play.
Normally race track related golf courses are poor and ill designed, this is not one of those.
Inside the top 20, well no ,not really but one of those true true Hidden Gems, so much so that I am going home next summer to play in the Logan Trophy there in July.
http://www.thengc.co.uk/....The clubs website.

[Sam Krume]

As many have listed on here, but for my tuppenceworth, here goes ( in no particular order)
The Addington
Royal Cinque Ports
Walton Heath (Old)
Swinley forest
Perranporth
Rye
Hoylake
Hankley Common
Saunton (East)
Brancaster
Ganton
Sunningdale (New)
Royal Ashdown Forest (Old)
West Hill
woodhall Spa
Royal North Devon
Burnham & Berrow
Pulborough
Siloth
The Berkshire (Red)

[James Boon]

I'll have a go!

Royal St George's
Sunnngdale Old
Swinley
Royal Birkdale
Sunningdale New

Berkshire Red
Alwoodley
Walton Heath New
Royal Cinque Ports
St George's Hill


Berkshire Blue
New Zealand
Hoylake
Royal Worlington
Brancaster

Walton Heath Old
Worplesdon
Royal Ashdown Forest
Woking
Woodhall Spa

All of the above I consider to be places I would get really excited about if offered a game. The top 10 would have me giddy. There are quite a few guys out there that have dual memberships at Sunningdale and Royal St George's. For me, that is as good a golfing life as one could ever hope for. It emphatically ticks every box. A nice compromise might be a Berkshire / Deal one two. I personally think the Berkshire offers an overall experience that is pretty much the equal of any in England and it is not mentioned anywhere near enough on this site. I expect the following courses to make there way on to this list when I play them:

St Enodoc
Formby
Kington

Brian,

No Notts? You are dead to me and no longer welcome this way... 

Cheers,

James

[Jon Wiggett]

In no particular order of the courses I have played:

1. Birkdale
2. Ganton
3. Alwoodley
4. Lindrick
5. Notts (Hope Mr. Boon is happy )

6. Odgen
7. Deal
8. L&St.A
9. Formby
10.Walton Heath Old

11. Hoylake
12. St Enodoc
13. Rye
14. Little Aston
15. Royal St Georges

16. Little Aston
17. Moortown
18. Brancaster
19. West Lancs
20. Seaton Carew.

Jon

[Jim Nelson]

I've had the good fortune to play a number of English courses in the last couple of years including:
Sunningdale Old and New
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath (old)
Royal St. Georges
Royal Cinque Port
Sauton East and West
Burnhan and Barrow
Royal North Devon and
St. Enodoc

The breadth and depth of the quality of English courses is outstanding and I would willingly go back and play any of these courses multiple times.  When I mention this to golfers in the States, I get blank stares.  Why would you go to England to play golf? seems to be the consensus view.  In the US, there is no buzz about English golf at all.  Seems curious.  Do you not want the pesky visitors?   No funding for the English Golf Tourist Board?  I feel like I have just scratched the surface and look forward to more English golf adventures.

[Adam Lawrence]

Funnily enough the authorities just launched a body called 'Golf Tourism England' this year, and it made its debut at the International Golf Travel Market event (the main global gathering for the golf travel business) in Italy last week. So I think we can expect more England-wide promotional activity in the future.

Previously such promotion has been confined to regional bodies - the collective marketing groups such as 'England's Golf Coast' (Lancashire), 'Atlantic Links' (the south-west), and there's a Kentish one as well, whose name I have forgotten.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Previously such promotion has been confined to regional bodies - the collective marketing groups such as ... and there's a Kentish one as well, whose name I have forgotten.

 

[Ed Tilley]

I've had the good fortune to play a number of English courses in the last couple of years including:
Sunningdale Old and New
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath (old)
Royal St. Georges
Royal Cinque Port
Sauton East and West
Burnhan and Barrow
Royal North Devon and
St. Enodoc

The breadth and depth of the quality of English courses is outstanding and I would willingly go back and play any of these courses multiple times.  When I mention this to golfers in the States, I get blank stares.  Why would you go to England to play golf? seems to be the consensus view.  In the US, there is no buzz about English golf at all.  Seems curious.  Do you not want the pesky visitors?   No funding for the English Golf Tourist Board?  I feel like I have just scratched the surface and look forward to more English golf adventures.

This is not just in the States. Even in England itself most golfers are completely unaware of the depth and variety of quality of golf on offer. Most would still automatically assume that Scotland and Ireland are much "better" countries for golf when this is so obviously untrue. Why this perception continues when just about every top 100 ranking list will have almost half the courses from England I do not know.

As an exercise I looked at the top 100 rankings on top100golfcourses.co.uk. I've split the courses by country in each tranche of 10:

   England   Scotland   Ireland   Wales
0-10           3          4          3         0
11-20   3          4          3         0
21-30   4          3          2         1
31-40   5          5          0         0
41-50   6          1          2         1
51-60   5          0          5         0
61-70   3          3          3         1
71-80   4          5          0         1
81-90   4          3          3         0
91-100   6          1          3         0
Total         43        29        24         4

The answer to the question "Why would you go to England to play golf?" is pretty obvious from the above. This also doesn't take into account the sheer variety of quality courses in those 43 - links, heathland, parkland - that Scotland and Ireland simply don't have. Obviously, there is the romantic element of golfing in Scotland and Ireland, and also the trophy courses (RCD, Ballybunion, TOC, Turnberry) that people want to notch up - including myself. However, if English people don't get it then we can't expect anyone else to get it!

If the English tourist board want a start they could publish that table.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think other issue is that there are a number of courses around London especially that don't really need or want that many more visitors, thanks. Sunningdale surely doesn't need any more, I suspect that's true of some of the other top places.

[Brent Hutto]

I've visited Deal (from USA) for a week each in 2006, 2010 and 2013 and found the people I met to be quite friendly and welcoming. There is a certainly a difference in affect and personal style evident in the south of England which is different from that in the north (as well as different from Scotland) but my perception was not of being less welcome but rather not being quite as solicitous and effusive.

For my part I've not experienced courses like Walton Heath, Royal Cinque Ports, Formby or Ganton to be any less appreciative of me as a visitor than was Royal Dornoch, Brora or Pitlochry. I will say that on my recent trip to Wales the folks I encountered at Harlech and especially at Aberdovey were positively delighted to welcome overseas visitors. A group of members I encountered at Aberdpvey were the most interested of any British residents I've ever met to hear about my part of USA and to share their own recollections of visiting America themselves in the past.

[Ed Tilley]

A part of the problem is that the English aren't all that fond of the yanks - the Irish and Scots seem to have much more of an affinity with them - and vice versa - something about the Celtic connection - "My father was O'Reilly from Mayo - etc etc" -  I imagine a large part of the appeal is visiting the birthplace of their ancestors.

Then there is the problem of logistics. The Heathland courses are great but hard to get to from central London and are you really going to base yourself in Ascot or Woking? I guess places like Deal, Sandwich and Padstow are handy but will yanks be welcomed with open arms the way they are in Ireland and Scotland? Not to the same extent, I don't think.

You can argue about the quality of golf til your blue in the face, but I can see why the overall experience for visiting Americans (the significant majority of the target market) is viewed as inferior.

To be frank I couldn't care less if any more Americans want to come over and play golf in England - I am much more concerned with why English people don't realise what quality they have on their doorstep. The more americans that come, the higher the price.

I may be completely ignorant and wrong, but I was under the impression that the predominant ethnic grouping in America was still WASPs - and certainly the wealthiest. The key to that groups heritage is in the letters A and S. Also, 88% of overseas visitors to the UK in the latest statistics visited England (54% London, 34% rest of England, 8% Scotland). The argument that Americans don't feel welcome and therefore visit Scotland and Ireland doesn't stack up when you look at actual non golf tourism figures.

I think the trophy course element is the big issue. How many US people want to go back home and tell their buddies "I played at Walton Heath and Hankley Common", or "St.Enodoc and Saunton" or even "Birkdale and Lytham" rather than "Turnberry and TOC" or "Ballybunion and Lahinch".

[Ed Tilley]

I've visited Deal (from USA) for a week each in 2006, 2010 and 2013 and found the people I met to be quite friendly and welcoming. There is a certainly a difference in affect and personal style evident in the south of England which is different from that in the north (as well as different from Scotland) but my perception was not of being less welcome but rather not being quite as solicitous and effusive.

For my part I've not experienced courses like Walton Heath, Royal Cinque Ports, Formby or Ganton to be any less appreciative of me as a visitor than was Royal Dornoch, Brora or Pitlochry. I will say that on my recent trip to Wales the folks I encountered at Harlech and especially at Aberdovey were positively delighted to welcome overseas visitors. A group of members I encountered at Aberdpvey were the most interested of any British residents I've ever met to hear about my part of USA and to share their own recollections of visiting America themselves in the past.

I may be biased being half Welsh but I would argue that the Welsh are comfortably the friendliest and most welcoming British people.

[Mark Pearce]

As an ex-Londoner living in the North East of England and married to a Scot I'd say that the further you get from London the more welcoming the British are.  There is a slight twist to this around Edinburgh, which rather fancies itself as London's Scottish sibling.

[Mark Pearce]

A part of the problem is that the English aren't all that fond of the yanks - the Irish and Scots seem to have much more of an affinity with them - and vice versa - something about the Celtic connection - "My father was O'Reilly from Mayo - etc etc" -  I imagine a large part of the appeal is visiting the birthplace of their ancestors.

Then there is the problem of logistics. The Heathland courses are great but hard to get to from central London and are you really going to base yourself in Ascot or Woking? I guess places like Deal, Sandwich and Padstow are handy but will yanks be welcomed with open arms the way they are in Ireland and Scotland? Not to the same extent, I don't think.

You can argue about the quality of golf til your blue in the face, but I can see why the overall experience for visiting Americans (the significant majority of the target market) is viewed as inferior.

Nonsense.  There's easily as much extra-golf to be had around Woking/Ascot as there might be in, say, Dornoch (lovely though Dornoch is).  If the main purpose for the trip is golf I'd say that the Surrey/Berkshire heathlands are far more accesible than many Scottish or Irish courses.  I don't think accessibility or welcome is the issue, it's simply that these courses do not have the international reputation of the most famous Scottish and Irish courses.