Your Top 20 Favourites (or Best) in ENGLAND

[Adrian_Stiff]

Stoneham over Burnham and Saunton? Kington will raise some eyebrows too. No Berkshire? No Hunstanton? I must admit I always had the Doak scale pretty much on it but thats weird.

Cant say I have heard of anyone saying Stoneham being in the top drawer, not in many top 100s let alone 20.

Wentworth is still top 20 in England, not in says its not top 60 GB & I. That cant be right. If you have Stoneham above Wentworth you need sectioning!

Adrian:

Perhaps I'm slightly too enthusiastic on Stoneham, but its position on this "top 20" is exaggerated because I'm the only one who saw it and I was very pleasantly surprised.  That is exactly why such rankings are so ridiculous.  If you look at Saunton's ratings from the four of us [7 7 7 6] vs. Stoneham [7 - - -] you do not get upset at all, you just think I've got Stoneham one point too high.  Most of the other courses you mentioned get a 7 from at least one of us, but more 6's than 7's.  They are all worth playing.

Wentworth is another story.  None of us have been back since they tried to make the finishing hole look like the TPC at Sawgrass, or any of the other changes, so we don't really have a rating for it.  I did not have it in the top 20 in England before the changes -- it would have a hard time scraping into my top 50, to be honest -- so I am not too concerned that we are missing the boat.  

I don't think it is better for the changes and I don't like 18 now (though it was not very good before) but the middle section has some great holes, in fact I like it round to 13. When I do my evaluation of a course I kinda rate each hole out of 10, Wentworth does not have many poor ones, lot of good ones, probably is lacking a real star hole. You wont convince many that Stoneham is better though. How many courses are in the book?

[Tom_Doak]

How many courses are in the book?

If I've counted right there are 286 courses covered in Great Britain & Ireland ... including 123 in England.  There were only 22 that I haven't seen myself; I don't know why I bothered to include these other guys 

[Sean_A]

Thanks Sean, looks nice. Despite TD's ranking, I'm keener to play Blackmoor and Liphook before Stoneham. And probably North Hants & Hindhead as well.

Ryan

Yes, I would say Liphook and Stoneham are a dead heat for quality, which is very good.  Where Stoneham really shines is its routing (give it better greens and Stoneham would be a in the class of the great heathland courses in London).  Liphook easily wins the more interesting greens battle - so pick yer poison.  Hindhead is for me definitely a notch below and North Hants another notch lower.  Don't know about Blackmoor, but its been high on my list for some time.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Alwoodley had three 7's and a 6 -- as did a half-dozen other courses that would be tied for 20th spot.

Formby had two 7's and a 6 -- Ran has not been there, or else he forgot to vote on it.

P.S.  I do NOT intend to rank courses within the book, if someone wants to do the math they'll have to do it on their own.

How can you have a Top 20 with only 19?

(a)  I'm not making a top 20 ranking, and
(b)  There were six courses tied for 20th, I didn't list them all.

 

[Thomas Dai]

The one course in my list that probably won't feature in others is Remedy Oak but I loved it.

Ryan,

Interesting that you should mention Remedy Oak. It's a course that gets mention but not much on here. Could you tell us a bit more, a separate thread maybe?

How did you get on at the Channel Course at Burnham & Berrow? Playable okay or lots of water?

atb

[Adam Lawrence]

I like Remedy Oak - it sits on a beautiful piece of land and has some excellent holes - but it is very flawed. The owner and his son decided to finish the course off themselves, without any professional architect helping beyond doing the routing, and the result is some greens that are different in a good way, others in a bad way. The course does not live up to the property imo.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I like Remedy Oak - it sits on a beautiful piece of land and has some excellent holes - but it is very flawed. The owner and his son decided to finish the course off themselves, without any professional architect helping beyond doing the routing, and the result is some greens that are different in a good way, others in a bad way. The course does not live up to the property imo.

Adam thats exactly what I heard from two or three sources. It should have been a contender. I did the routing at Sweetwoods Park and was another that should have been better.

[Martin Toal]

I like Remedy Oak - it sits on a beautiful piece of land and has some excellent holes - but it is very flawed. The owner and his son decided to finish the course off themselves, without any professional architect helping beyond doing the routing, and the result is some greens that are different in a good way, others in a bad way. The course does not live up to the property imo.

RO is a pleasant course, but I think its potential to have been great was wasted with some badly conceived holes.

These include the par-5 second, with water in front of the green, but the design of the hole forces almost everyone to layup and thus negates the value of a good drive, the par-4 8th, a silly hole which is either a driver over the water or a 7 iron lay up, the 18th a 90 degree dogleg twisted to create a spectacle beneath the clubhouse.

I am sure these holes looked great on paper, but I thought they really spoiled the course.

[Adam Lawrence]

I like Remedy Oak - it sits on a beautiful piece of land and has some excellent holes - but it is very flawed. The owner and his son decided to finish the course off themselves, without any professional architect helping beyond doing the routing, and the result is some greens that are different in a good way, others in a bad way. The course does not live up to the property imo.

RO is a pleasant course, but I think its potential to have been great was wasted with some badly conceived holes.

These include the par-5 second, with water in front of the green, but the design of the hole forces almost everyone to layup and thus negates the value of a good drive, the par-4 8th, a silly hole which is either a driver over the water or a 7 iron lay up, the 18th a 90 degree dogleg twisted to create a spectacle beneath the clubhouse.

I am sure these holes looked great on paper, but I thought they really spoiled the course.

Oddly I thought the second was among the best holes on the course (but I did get home in 2 the first time I played there). The others I agree with.

[Martin Toal]

I like Remedy Oak - it sits on a beautiful piece of land and has some excellent holes - but it is very flawed. The owner and his son decided to finish the course off themselves, without any professional architect helping beyond doing the routing, and the result is some greens that are different in a good way, others in a bad way. The course does not live up to the property imo.

RO is a pleasant course, but I think its potential to have been great was wasted with some badly conceived holes.

These include the par-5 second, with water in front of the green, but the design of the hole forces almost everyone to layup and thus negates the value of a good drive, the par-4 8th, a silly hole which is either a driver over the water or a 7 iron lay up, the 18th a 90 degree dogleg twisted to create a spectacle beneath the clubhouse.

I am sure these holes looked great on paper, but I thought they really spoiled the course.

Oddly I thought the second was among the best holes on the course (but I did get home in 2 the first time I played there). The others I agree with.

Adam

But not everyone is as accomplished at the game as you. 

I think the water is too close to the green, so unless you hit a great drive, drawing around the corner, then it really isn't an option in 2. Time I played, all 4 of us hit drives ranging from pretty good to rather week, but all then aged down into the same divot infested area, the only difference being that the besotted drives hit shorter clubs to do so. I didn't think it offered a decent risk-reward.

Bearwood Lakes' 16th suffered from the same problem although not with water as the choke point, and the club us renovating the hole to offer more options.

[Adam Lawrence]

I like Remedy Oak - it sits on a beautiful piece of land and has some excellent holes - but it is very flawed. The owner and his son decided to finish the course off themselves, without any professional architect helping beyond doing the routing, and the result is some greens that are different in a good way, others in a bad way. The course does not live up to the property imo.

RO is a pleasant course, but I think its potential to have been great was wasted with some badly conceived holes.

These include the par-5 second, with water in front of the green, but the design of the hole forces almost everyone to layup and thus negates the value of a good drive, the par-4 8th, a silly hole which is either a driver over the water or a 7 iron lay up, the 18th a 90 degree dogleg twisted to create a spectacle beneath the clubhouse.

I am sure these holes looked great on paper, but I thought they really spoiled the course.

Oddly I thought the second was among the best holes on the course (but I did get home in 2 the first time I played there). The others I agree with.

Adam

But not everyone is as accomplished at the game as you. 

ROFL!

[Ryan Coles]

The one course in my list that probably won't feature in others is Remedy Oak but I loved it.

Ryan,

Interesting that you should mention Remedy Oak. It's a course that gets mention but not much on here. Could you tell us a bit more, a separate thread maybe?

How did you get on at the Channel Course at Burnham & Berrow? Playable okay or lots of water?

atb

Didn't bother. Took Shaun's advice - it was a howling gale in Bristol so probably borderline unplayable at Burnham.

[Ryan Coles]

I played Remedy Oak rather than over analysed it, but trying to put aside that it was a beautiful day and the pine trees looked stunning against the blue sky and that it was in exceptionally good condition, I though it was a great site for inland golf.

Fun, challenging but not a slog. Good set of par threes and some real heart in your mouth do or die shots. The 2nd was my favourite hole, I loved it albeit I was always going to have a go for the green in two. I hit a great one iron straight at the flag and was posing and holding the finish as it splashed into the water, but it's a very pretty hole and with a good drive, worth a go.

Not many courses without heather will better it. I suspect that they are lowering their expectations from the members only set up a few years ago. Not played Bearwood Lakes, but I doubt there are better parkland courses in England. 

[Sean_A]

Anymore updates, new lists?

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sean,

I notice Formby doesn't make your list, yet your photo-tour gave the impression that it was a favourite of yours.

I only ask because I'm just leaving to play there this afternoon with Ken Moodie and I've been reading your thread in anticipation.

Delighted to see that Reddish Vale is still there - I'll let you know whether I agree with your assessment that it is preferable to Formby!

 

[Sean_A]

Duncan

Haven't you heard?  I am downsizing my golf.  Smaller courses, smaller green fees.  I definitely think Formby is better than your lovely bit of the world.  Formby is great, Reddish Vale is not.  So what?  Reddish Vale is plenty good enough for me and thats all that matters in my downsizing trend.  That said, I am very happy to return to Formby on their dormy deal.  Maybe Spangles will organize this as a GCA.com trip next spring 

Have fun.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ah, I understand Sean. And agree entirely that 'Value for Money' must play a large role when assessing courses. I thoroughly enjoyed my day at Formby - it is clearly a great course.  The green fee is four times that of Reddish Vale. Is it four times better?  No.

Can I afford to pay over £100 for a round of golf with any regularity?  Again, No.

Keep up the good work highlighting lesser-known and affordable gems. Just as much enjoyment can be had eating a really good burger or rack of ribs as a haute cuisine meal. 

So long as it's really good...

[Mark Chaplin]

Recently a GCA'er was booked to play at Swinley Forest at 3pm for £160'ish. I thought his schedule a little tight and suggested pushing the tee time back to 5pm. The result was four hours of light, an empty course and a green fee of £90. Not exactly a bargain but far better value than the full green fee. It's always worth checking for twilight deals.

[James Boon]

I am downsizing my golf.  Smaller courses, smaller green fees. 
Ciao

Sean,

A very worthy idea, and one which I feel should be copied.

Looking through your list, pretty much all of the course could be argued to fall into this, or the fringes of this description in one way or another. Except perhaps Ganton? Your thoughts?

Cheers,

James
 

[Sean_A]

I am downsizing my golf.  Smaller courses, smaller green fees. 
Ciao

Sean,

A very worthy idea, and one which I feel should be copied.

Looking through your list, pretty much all of the course could be argued to fall into this, or the fringes of this description in one way or another. Except perhaps Ganton? Your thoughts?

Cheers,

James
 

Boony

I have to indulge myself occasionally    That said, if some crackers come along, I can see Ganton and most of the other expensive courses falling by the wayside. That, however, doesn't mean I don't like them or never want to play them again.  Remember, a 20 favourites list can easily be 40 

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

To answer both Mark's and James's comments simultaneously, I am holidaying in North Yorkshire the last week in August, and have my eye on a round at Ganton. Midweek twilight rate (after 4pm) is £45.00 as opposed to £80.00 earlier in the day. That's doable.

The other query I would have about Sean's list is Alwoodley. That is quite expensive at £85.00 (£50.00 after 4pm)

Why is late afternoon golf seemingly so universally unpopular that it is discounted?  It's my favourite time of the day to play!

[James Boon]

Here is my revised list, not in a strict order, rather a top group, then the next group down and so on...

Notts (Hollinwell)
Royal Cinque Ports
Walton Heath (Old)*
Ganton
Burnham & Berrow

Alwoodley
Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster)
Silloth-on-Solway
Aldeburgh*
Beau Desert

St. Enodoc*
Swinley Forest*
Hunstanton
Cavendish
Painswick

Liphook
Berkshire(Red)
Royal Worlington*
Woodhall Spa
Huntercombe*

Those marked with * are those I’ve only played 18 holes around. I’m flagging this up as I had previously only had one round at Woodhall and it was in my top group, but a recent return visit has shunted it down somewhat.  Little Aston* and Kington* just miss out on the only played them once and need to return to get a real feel for them.

Sean,

Yes, we will let you off the occasional indulgence!  

As you say, not being on the list doesn't mean I dont want to play them. For instance I feel I should love Kington, and possibly will when I get back there, but for some reason it doesn't quite make my list yet.

Cheers,

James

Here is my list, not in a strict order, rather a top group, then the next group down and so on...

Notts (Hollinwell)
Royal Cinque Ports
Walton Heath (Old)
Woodhall Spa
Burnham & Berrow

Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster)
St. Enodoc
Swinley Forest
Beau Desert
Liphook

Berkshire(Red)
Moortown
Hunstanton
Huntercombe
Cavendish

New Zealand
Royal Worlington
Hankley Common
Saunton East
Painswick

A few big hitters don't make the list as on the one play they didnt really do it for me. I think next year might be a good time to make a real effort to see Alwoodley, Ganton, Royal St Georges, Rye and Sunningdale!

Cheers,

James

[Ryan Coles]

Stoneham over Burnham and Saunton? Kington will raise some eyebrows too. No Berkshire? No Hunstanton? I must admit I always had the Doak scale pretty much on it but thats weird.

Cant say I have heard of anyone saying Stoneham being in the top drawer, not in many top 100s let alone 20.

Wentworth is still top 20 in England, not in says its not top 60 GB & I. That cant be right. If you have Stoneham above Wentworth you need sectioning!

Adrian:

Perhaps I'm slightly too enthusiastic on Stoneham, but its position on this "top 20" is exaggerated because I'm the only one who saw it and I was very pleasantly surprised.  That is exactly why such rankings are so ridiculous.  If you look at Saunton's ratings from the four of us [7 7 7 6] vs. Stoneham [7 - - -] you do not get upset at all, you just think I've got Stoneham one point too high.  Most of the other courses you mentioned get a 7 from at least one of us, but more 6's than 7's.  They are all worth playing.

Wentworth is another story.  None of us have been back since they tried to make the finishing hole look like the TPC at Sawgrass, or any of the other changes, so we don't really have a rating for it.  I did not have it in the top 20 in England before the changes -- it would have a hard time scraping into my top 50, to be honest -- so I am not too concerned that we are missing the boat.  

Tom

Did GCA.Com cause you to revise many scores? Stoneham is now a 6 in the guide.

[Paul Gray]

For what it's worth, I was so impressed with the improvements at Stoneham this year that I now have it leapfrogging both Hayling and Liphook to number 1 spot in Hampshire. It suffered for years because of trees interfering with both strategic options and generally turf quality but the extensive tree removal program has got it very much heading in the right direction.

[Sean_A]

Sheehy

I thought if we compare best to best in England that our top 20 would be quite similar.  I count 13 the same and you haven't played Formby or St Enodoc...so a possibility of 15...very like of mind.  While I can understand Little Aston, Saunton and Burnham not being included, I am very surprised by the exclusion of Rye and Ganton.  Where we wildly differ is New Zealand.  I like the course and really enjoy the day there, but I don't think its terribly close to top 20. 

Ciao