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John_D._Bernhardt

Routings
« on: January 03, 2002, 08:24:17 AM »
Many consider Muirfield to be this best routing in golf. Many talk about use of land forms for great routing. I would think you would want to have a combination of land use with different angles to the wind. ie holes running in as many directions as possible while being in harmony with the land. What are your general thoughts on great routing in a technical sense and can a course with 14 or more of the holes going generally in the same direction but back and forth be a great routing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_Overdorf

Re: Routings
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2002, 08:29:50 PM »
John,

If I may wade in on this one, it can be safely said that a good (or great) routing must necessarily be based on flexibility, variety and individuality in the nature of the holes in the design.

Flexibility, in this matter, refers to the degree of difficulty experienced in the character of play of sequential holes in that the player does not experience  a strong degree of "sameness" and repetition during a round. Few things have a negative impact on the players' psyche equal to several bland par fours  repeatedly requiring a drive and a chip or a routing design that virtually dictates a player bottleneck through a series of holes particularly early in  the play of a nine hole loop.
 
Variety closely follows suit in the sense that directionally, well conceived golf course routing design must decree that par threes and par fives should be designed to play to varying points on the compass. Combining this with a broad diversity of length and playing characteristics within the category of par is an exercise in providing a constantly thought provoking process within the individual designer and player while considering sun and wind exposure through the 18 hole round.

The individual nature of holes within the design concept has a capacity to establish identity in the sense that features may be inserted into the routing design to achieve a desired impact in the overall sequence of play. ;D

One of the major processes in the designer's mind will be the thought and consideration of what will be remembered in the play of his particular course, whether from the visual impact or the impressions of the player's compatriots.

The bottom line of the conscientious, talented designer is: "How can I achieve this within a better budget"?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2002, 09:12:17 PM »
Bill, I'd like to say thanks for a very enjoyable, clear and  succinct commentary on routing.  Nice to see you posting... 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2002, 09:44:02 PM »
Another element of routing, I think, is that there must be a variety of strategy within the 18 holes.  The par 5's must be one or two risk/reward holes and one or two 3-shot holes. Par 5's which are three shot holes need something to keep the second shot interesting.  The par 4's need to have a couple of short exciting holes mixed in with the solid lengthy par 4 holes.  I clearly remember Broadway Golf Club in the Cotswolds, which has #3 a 290 yard hole with an elevated green encompassed with bunkers, followed by #4 at 450 yards with a stone wall across the fairway at 300 yards but not much else to stop a long iron run up shot.  Great variety is a hallmark of great routing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2002, 07:00:25 AM »
How courses are routed is a very interesting topic. I have been contemplating this of late and am amazed at an architects ability to turn raw land into a golf course. When I think of 200 acres of land I'm wondering how the process begins. Do architects look for green sites first, natural features that can be incorporated, entire holes, etc.. How does this begin for those who have been involved?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2002, 09:10:56 AM »
Ed,

One only needs to walk a piece of land in the sand hills of Nebraska or a true dunes-links land to realise that greensites and fairway features jump out at you.  I have found nothing more stimulating in this hobby than walking a remarkable property over and over, and finding 100s of natural features that take your imagination to places that are exhilerating.  But, connecting the features in the best possible route based upon the configuration of the land becomes the real puzzle.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2002, 09:55:21 AM »
RJ,
 I agree in certain settings picking out features is easy. For example at Bandon Dunes there are so many golf holes,greensites, and natural features it would just be a matter of deciding what to use and hooking it all together. Not that I could. And in no way is that meant to diminish what Kidd and Doak did there that I like so much.
 A better example of the difficulties I find in routing a course is when the property has trees and brush covering a lot of the land, where a hole cannot be seen in its entirety from one spot. While walking the land does one have a topo in hand and mark interesting features down and then at the end of the day see how they can utilize natural features and greensites most effectively from everything they've jotted down?
  I can see how if I was designing a course I could find a hole here or there (ie even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes), but finding great holes and fitting them all together in a coherent routing is amazing to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

Re: Routings
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2002, 10:23:18 AM »
Ed;

How does a routing begin? It is my understanding and my experience that it can begin in any number of ways and ways that some might never imagine. Even a single architect may go about it differently on different sites. It is interesting to know and note, though, if various architects do develop set ways of going about this, as Donald Ross might have in a long and highly productive career--particularly with topo routings.

I have only asked this specific question of only one architect however. His answer was' "I go on a golf walk". And so that's what we did for three days! There were no requirements necessarily to starting the process--well let me amend that, there was a preliminary clubhouse site and that's where we started but there was no thought to a returning nines necessarily. It was funny, though, after a golf walk on one section, when he said; "How about that we happened to get one idea with nine holes and returning without trying to.

I like the "golf walk" idea since a flow seems to unfold naturally but sometimes the balance can get screwed up pretty fast, not that that really matters on some courses. But it's overcoming the obstacles and stumbling blocks that fascinatings to me and where one really learns things, I think!

I'm sure sometimes when there is something really significant that an architect wants to use and how to get to it and away from it might be complex if that's the place where the routing process starts!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Routings
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2002, 11:22:36 AM »
Great routings in my mind are like great baseball pitchers -- they constantly keep you guessing. They do not permit you to easy discern patterns that you can anticipate with ease.

They vary in terms of length, direction and placement of bunkers / hazards. Great routings maximize the element that matters most in golf -- the mind. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2002, 07:40:51 PM »
Matt,
 
Great point about the mind being the key to the effectiveness of a routing. When I think about the courses I consider challenging and fun, it is because of what you pointed out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

Re: Routings
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2002, 05:23:37 AM »
Matt:

I agree with Ed that's a super great point you made about a good architect maximizing the player's mind!

That's the real reason so many good archtiects talk up "strategies" and the more of them and the better they are the better the course and the better the test for the player and theoretically the more enjoyable it should be. Really good options and choices are synonymous with good strategies (to be determined at will by the player) since options create interesting strategies.

And this is also the reason that we talk so often about the dullness and boredom of so many of the "center directed" narrowed down courses we find out there today. They don't really let a golfer use his mind--they simply point out to him what he must do and generally one dimensionally. What's the fun and interest in that? It very well might be physically challenging but not particularly interesting or challenging to the player's mind! And that is exactly what Behr is referring to when he advocates a designer offer a golfer something that can give him "freedom". He means "freedom of expression" to plot his own course and his own strategies!

The modern process of design has gotten so one dimensional and so imbued with "shot dictation" that some clubs and some architects even print up little books with yardage figures all over them from everywhere and to everywhere and they even go on to explain to the player hole by hole exactly how to play the golf course.

What fun is that? Does that challenge the players mind? Hardly! Just about the opposite in fact!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Routings
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2002, 07:18:55 AM »
I disagree with Matt's interpretation of what a routing should do.  I think it is the individual golf holes that play with your head not the routing.

A routing should maximize use of the property, create a natural flow/walk around the property and do this using the criteria outlined by Bill Overdorf.

For example- If you are required to play a big draw held up by a hard left to right wind to attack a pin on one hole and then go to the next hole and discover that you have to ride that wind with a fade to get around the corner of a dogleg is that an example of the routing playing with your mind or the individual golf shots required by the golf hole?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Routings
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2002, 07:58:46 AM »
GeoffreyC:

You're so right about that and it's a very accurate distinction on your part but with some of these fellows you have to latch onto the first thing they say and just sort of work it from there. You have to watch carefully the distinctions you make too with what they say cuz some of them think you're only trying to diss them and imply they know nothing about architecture.

But you sure are right that routings aren't golf holes, just a bunch of them, and a routing shouldn't play to heavily on a player's mind! Except for really really good routings like Merions! That routing has holes that play on my mind sometimes way before I get to them. And sometimes I even make decisions on various holes and hit various shots on them only because I can't get those holes out of my mind that may be a long time coming!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »