[Gene Greco]

    In another thread it was mentioned that Augusta National was conceived by Alister McKenzie and Bob Jones to be the St. Andrews of America.

     However, it was further concluded that with all the changes made at AGN by various golf architects that this was no longer the case.

      What course then would select as the St. Andrews of America if not AGN?

[ian]

I must beat Pat to this; but is not the National Golf Links of America the first great North American course. The one that set the standard for all golf courses in the early years of American Golf Course architecture.

[Steve_L.]

I'd consider Pebble Beach (arguably) as the St. Andrews of America.  It is probably as iconic as any of the american courses, is accessible to the public (albeit for a ton of $$), and has a coastal/seaside location...

To me - a private club precludes this description - but it might be worthy of the "Muirfield of America"...

[CHrisB]

I'll vote for Pinehurst--8 courses, with the flagship #2, which like TOC is playable by all levels of golfer, has a set of greens that is unique in the world of golf, and where it is very hard to lose a golf ball.  The ground game is (usually) alive and well there, and the village of Pinehurst is pure golf through and through.

[mike_beene]

Yankee Stadium

[Forrest Richardson]

Mike_Beene has it. Tremendous answer. But I would agrue that Oakmont is the testament to the American ideal -- it is pure innovation, change, daring design, tough-as-nails challenge and was created in response to golf's arrival here.

[Norbert P]

I struggle with this great question and am ambiguously affected that nothing seems to compare in its entirety.

 What has...
  the divine intervention?
  The spirit?
  The history?
  The accessability?  (In January)
  The pride of its local town?
  The shot values?
  The endless discussion?
  The strategies?
  Its natural randomness?
  The mysteries?
  The reverance?
  
  And what is the most endearing feature that should be emulated?  All of them perhaps?

[Tim_Weiman]

Forrest Richardson:

You are right. Mike Beene is correct. But, if we can't go with such a classy answer I'll settle for either Pebble or Pinehurst.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tim -- Those two would be low on my list. I will place Pinehurst above Pebble. If you are trying to replicate the public access and ski village atmosphere, then Pinehurst and Pebble fit the bill. But neither show an American spirit to the degree that some other courses exhibit.

[jim_lewis]

There is no St. Andrews in America. Pinehurst, the courses and the village, probably comes the closest. That's why I live here. But, comparing any place to St. Andrews is akin to asking which member of your club plays most like Tiger.

[GeoffreyC]

There really is nothing like St. Andrews anywhere.  Its a great cultural city with museums, university and social atmosphere created by friendly people. The course is public with locals getting a nice break in price and in addition there are other excellent courses (New and Jubilee) associated with the Links Trust.

Perhaps the closest we have here might be Bethpage Black! Its near enough to a wonderful cultural city with museums, universities and warm friendly people  .  BB is a public course with a break for NY State residents and it has excellent courses associated with it (Red in particular). I wish BB had a ballot for times but instead you sleep in your car.

[ForkaB]

Geoff is probably closest to the "truth," but the real answer is "None of the Above."

I have often wondered why when golf was transplanted from Scotland to America it was (sadly) transposed from a highly inclusive game to a largely exclusive one.  Anybody have any theories on this?

[THuckaby2]

That's a hell of a good question, Rich.  In Scotland you have private clubs, but in the vast majority of cases everyone tends to belong, it's kept cheap, etc... and it's ALWAYS been that way, right?

Perhaps in the US it was the money required to build the earliest clubs... someone had to put this up, and those someones were rich... thus exclusivity became the order of the day... buy in coming at such a high price...

We need George Bahto on this.  Did CBMac (the evangelist of golf) design anything but courses for exclusive private clubs?

I guess that was just the reality of early 20th century America...

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Rich -- When in doubt, I always blame the equipment manufacturers.

[TEPaul]

Rich said:

"I have often wondered why when golf was transplanted from Scotland to America it was (sadly) transposed from a highly inclusive game to a largely exclusive one.  Anybody have any theories on this?"

Rich, you little dirty devil you--after about two solid years of asking dumb and contrarian questions and begging for a quick an easy education on anything and everything architectural from any and all you finally asked a fascinating question--just fascinating.

Have I got an answer for you--quite a few of them actually!

But let me ask you first if you've ever actually read C.B. Macdonald's wonderful book of a particular time "Scotland's Gift Golf"? ("Scotland's Gift Golf was a gift made to me by the kind and geneous Patrick Mucci who must have been in one of his rare 2% correct mental frameworks when he made the gift).

Seems to me there is clearly--clearly some answers to your question in that book as to the whys and wherefors. The interesting thing is it can sort of be seen just how much C.B was the one who actually did bring golf to this country lock, stock and barrel in an organizational sense, architectural sense etc. But the thing that seemed to concern him the most (and actually may have been the reason he sort of withdrew back to NGLA in the end) was that the "spirit" of the game emanating almost exclusively (in his mind) from St Andrews would not transport or translate well to the United States and particularly through the vehicle of the USGA which he practically formed. His work on the initial Rules Committee for the USGA to try to meld seamlessly everything about rules and the game and it's Scottish spirit somehow through that vehicle did not work to his satisfaction although he appeared to be uncharaceristically resigned to the fact and very early on actually. Essentially he could see that Americans were just going to adapt the game somehow to their unique Americanness and their culture. He didn't like the thought of that but he did seem to be peculiarly resigned to the fact that even HE could not do anything about it--even as hard as he may try.

C.B's feeling about the spirit of the game emanating from St Andrews and his delightful years there in the 1870s while at college was that the less questions a golfer or an organization had to deal with in any context the better it was and the heathier the spirit of the game would be too.

C.B was also, to me anyway, a strange combination of a real elitist on the one hand but one that apparently had a sort of democratic feeling about golf itself. Not golf's organizations, mind you, just the game itself and the sort of undelying essence of it and how it should be played by any and all!

But it's a wonderful question Rich. Those are some things I feel C.B might have felt but I have my own ideas about that question of yours and what some answers may be so if you're interested--I'm ready--my little contrarian amigo.  

[THuckaby2]

TEP:  I read Scotland's Gift, but it was several years ago... can you sum up CBMac's reasons for why it turned out that way?  Is it other than just the financial reasons I postulate above?

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

When you start drawing Social Security in a few years and can afford it, perhaps you'll do a Mucci and buy me that MacDonald guy's book.  Sounds interesting.

Until then, let me posit the following:

1.  Most Americans, having arrived across the pond mostly because they were scum and/or owned nothing in Europe, developed an rapacious lust for the abundant land that was here (and only nominally "owned" by the Native Americans......)

2.  Once having acquired land (and having seen how it could be easily confiscated in their old countries), Americans tried their damnedest to hold onto it.

3.  Because of the abundance of acreage, the concept of "common" land was largely irrelevant.

4.  Without the concept of "common" land, there could be no concept of a "club" based on common residence and common ownership.

5.  So, "clubs" developed on pieces of land that were owned or acquired by individuals, rather than communities, and were developed for the benefit of those indivuiduals, rather than communities.

Of course, it was probably very different in the GAP region.....

[Mike Benham]

Yankee Stadium

If so, why does George S. want a new stadium?  

Maybe the Met's could move and then they would have AAA ball in the Bronx ...

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Good post--you're actually getting fairly warm. You may want to think about modifying that remark that everyone who came over here from Europe is scum but we can talk about that some other time.

You're pretty handy with that term "common" aren't you? Well guess what--the word may work and sound great over there but over here it sounds like scum--extremely poor connotations. In that sense Winston Churchill was very correct when he said;

"The British and the Americans, two peoples separated by a common language."

If you can find a word that sounds better than "common" to sell a more democratic concept of golf to Americans go for it. You know Americans--they'll buy anything if you call it something that sounds good.

See---the GHIN handicapping system sounds good to Americans--it sounds sort of sexy and sort of naughty. But that CONGU system you cow turd avoiders have over there sounds like some ape in a zoo who forgot to wipe himself--Americans would never go for something that sounds like that. And if you try to make Americans play monthly tournaments to get a handicap I swear to God you'll get a 1 iron (Americans love anything associated with that number) in the chops, a Big Bertha upside the head and a heaven wood up the you know what.

[Norbert P]

If you can find a word that sounds better than "common" to sell a more democratic concept of golf to Americans go for it. You know Americans--they'll buy anything if you call it something that sounds good.

  Tom, does the word "Communal" sound more American to you?   I think the word should be "Cheap" golf.  Us Americans will buy into that.

  I think Richard makes an astute point with the possessionary mindset.  The pawls of Manifest Destiny. Advance, acquire and lock it in.     "You kids get off my yard!"

  Dobereiner writes an interesting article about us Americans always needing to emulate the best and then lock onto that ideal with narrowminded pursuit. (He used iceberg lettuce as an example - no kidding).  

 Semper Fi !

[Willie_Dow]

Back to the "Subject:", I would propose Kittansett.

It has the setting, on the bay - the wind - the rain - and all one could ask for a round of golf.

[mike_beene]

and George S would move the Open to the Stadium Course at Hyde Park if St Andrews refused to put in skyboxes.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Easy answer.  The St Andrews Club next to Gulfstream!  (To say nothing of the New York St Andrews Club).  :-)

[Pete Lavallee]

I think that Rustic Canyon has many of the qualities we all love about The Old Course;

Severely contoured greens that force the golfer to position himself correctly in wide faiways to gain the best angle of attack.

An out and backrouting where only one hole, the 4th, doesn't go in roughly the same direction.

Several driveable par 4's. I can't get over the similarities between the 12th at both courses.

Totally accessable by the public, at a reasonable price.

A course that looks easy to score on but can prove quite the contrary.

A place where knowledge comes through patience and familiarity.

Bunkers where the ball can only be advanced with a sand wedge.

A relative abscence of long grass or rough.

Tight lies in the fairway, to pinch off those low running shots, and make the L-wedge around the green almost useless.

[TEPaul]

"Tom, does the word "Communal" sound more American to you?"

Slag:

Eeehaaahooohwell, no not really--s...can that word too. I guess it could work OK in some circles in America but definitely not in the world of golf. "Communal" is too apt to make the ultra conservative bastions of OUR CROWD think about things like the social revolution of the 1960s and unreconstructed hippies with head-bands and long hair who actually think they can make the world better for the oppressed and disenfranchised and such. You know we can't let that happen or our piece of the pie would be smaller and it would be harder to afford our private country clubs.

How about "elitarian" golf? A combo of "elite" and "egalitarian"?--sort of a middle of the road concept word (the political middle always wins these days). And nobody would know what it means anyway because its a contrdiction in terms but it sounds good.  

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