David Fay on Opening of Masterpieces to Non-Members

[Will Lozier]

JR Potts, I agree with you. You describe the American private golf club culture very well. Personally I prefer the Australian/British model, but that isn't to say that I'd want American private clubs to be forced to do something they don't want to do.

I do find Patrick's xenophobic view of the 'general public' to be quite amusing though.

Chris,

What you and the other cretins don't understand is the vast difference in the legal systems.
Forget the tax ramifications.
If a member slips in the shower and breaks his arm, or slips going down a set of steps from a tee/green and breaks his arm, will he sue the club ?
If a "general public" golfer experiences the same fate, will he sue that club ?
You bet he will.
So why would a club want to expose themselves to the additional liability associated with allowing the general public unfettered access ?

Many clubs ceased hosting "sweet sixteen" parties due to the liabilities associated with them.
And, those clubs employed uniformed police officers from the same town as additional security, and still the problems and liabilities persisted.

You bozos don't have a clue with respect to what you're talking about, never having experienced the problems private clubs face when outsiders, the general public or special event attendees, are granted access.

And since "sexual harrassment" seems to be in the news, you should know that the club's can be liable for the conduct of an outsider, a member of the general public you glorify, should they make inappropriate comments to the wait staff.  Now, I know you'll claim that never happens, but, that's just your ignorance talking.

The sexual predator was just one example, amongst a myriad number of examples, where the clubs exponentially magnify their risks, by admitting the "general public"

You and especially the "Marks" have never sat on a Board of Governor's and had these problems confronting you.
You just rant against the present arrangement with a complete lack of understanding regarding the problems associated with your raison d'etat.

You just want what somebody else has and you want it without paying for it, or you want it at a deep discount.

I'm surprised the "Marks" have had the time to type their responses since I thought they'd be spending all of their time in Zuccotti Park.

Patrick,

To be so bitter about a simple suggestion that private clubs open their doors a little more, you must have been somehow abused yourself given your hysterical fear of the "general public" and the scum that you must keep out.  Why so glum chum?

A school teacher/coach like myself with a good bit of experience in the industry as a professional and caddie was treated INCREDIBLY WELL with a simple phone call by the likes of Lahinch, RCD, Swinley, Alwoodley, Kennemer, etc. etc. when I lived overseas - and I am incredibly grateful!  While I prefer that model rather than our own (I do realize most of these clubs need a good deal of public play), I do respect your right as a member of a private club to only allow guests and sparingly at that.  But, I think a lot of us DO WANT TO EXPERIENCE THESE HALLOWED GROUNDS ONCE WITHOUT PAYING A SUM OF MONEY WE CANNOT AFFORD TO DO SO ON AN EVERYDAY BASIS.  I don't see why you consider promoting this idea "class warfare"!?!?  That is paranoia at best.  

Just lighten up!  All this name calling gives you 1%'ers a really bad reputation and makes you sound like the stereotype of an arrogant American.  You CAN'T be THIS angry about anything golf-related given how lucky you have been in this realm of your life.  

Cheers

[Mike_Young]

That said.....if i were a member of such a club i would not employ the mind set that you have that i paid it and screw those who cant. I would hope that a scratch handicap school teacher from another city would be able to experience my club and go away and talk about it (free advertsing that many clubs need right now). As i said before they are merely golf courses.....not gold plated Picassos.....they are there to be seen and be played by people who love golf. Voila!

Dean,
I think that can happen on a daily basis and does but it is done via invitation from a member right?  

Mike, how many private clubs have you played in the British Isles without a member in the group? Maybe you havent but i have American friends who do it every year......there ate members of those clubs who have paid good money to be members but are willing to share. Perhaps it is just a different mindset over there. Ps. I have no skin in this game guys......i have a private golf club membership in the US that cost me a good chunk. If 4 of younwho are public course players but have a hcp certificate and dress correctly wanted to pay a daily rate for an unpopular tee time at our club i would absolutely welcome it and would also enjoy a cold beer in the clubhouse to discuss your thoughts.....good or bad. Good thing we are all different i guess!

Dean,
I think you sum it up best by just saying it is a different system.  IMHO the players I see in Britain are more apt to enjoy the game and want to play whereas over here we have so many that want to go to said club for the connection or the teeshirt.  Our golfers often play for different reasons than the Brits.  All countries are different.  In the US we silently know that but often portray that all want to be like us.  That's not necessarily so.  Whether it be golf or governments.  

[Dean Stokes]

No Brian, the payment is not the green fee.  The green fee is just a number that helps the Club pay part of its operations.  The club assumes that the MEMBER is paying the greens fee so there's a balance in that cost.  The rest of ithe Club's operations are subsidized by dues, member use and other member payments.

My club opens up two times to outside groups per day....and the members/club have decided that the inconvenience to them is worth $500 per guy....and those times are filled every day.

"Put up or shut up."

"put up or shut up"...... That is classic.....why would i live in Seattle and be on a trip to see my sister in Chicago and pay a yearly membership to join a club for one day.......why couldnt i pay a daily fee for a guest pass and be a member for the day like i can at very very good high end clubs abroad? You can go to the UK and do that on a course where people have 'put up'. Why not here?

[Jud_T]

Dean,

Why can't you rent a Ferrari for a day for the same price as a Honda Civic?

[JR Potts]

But, I think a lot of us DO WANT TO EXPERIENCE THESE HALLOWED GROUNDS ONCE WITHOUT PAYING A SUM OF MONEY WE CANNOT AFFORD TO DO SO ON AN EVERYDAY BASIS.  I don't see why you consider promoting this idea "class warfare"!?!?  That is paranoia at best.  

Will, I don't mean to be flippant, but who doesn't want that?  And that goes to the heart of my comments - we all want things that cost money...money that we don't have.  However, golf, like those other things, is a privilege.

Every month I think that there's better use for the money I am writing over to my Club.  Every month I wonder if I would have to get up at 5am and get home at 7pm every day if I could eliminate that cost - but, since golf at my club is a priorty, I keep waking up and keep writing that check - even if it sucks doing so.

[Mark Pearce]

No Brian, the payment is not the green fee.  The green fee is just a number that helps the Club pay part of its operations.  The club assumes that the MEMBER is paying the greens fee so there's a balance in that cost.  The rest of ithe Club's operations are subsidized by dues, member use and other member payments.

My club opens up two times to outside groups per day....and the members/club have decided that the inconvenience to them is worth $500 per guy....and those times are filled every day.

"Put up or shut up."

Are you deliberately failing to understand the other side of the discussion?  Or is this more evidence of the difference in systems?  In your case I suspect the former but stand to be corrected.  

In the UK the "green fee" is the sum paid by the visitor (a visitor is unintroduced, an introduced non-member is a guest) for the privilege of playing.

[Mark Pearce]

Dean,

Why can't you rent a Ferrari for a day for the same price as a Honda Civic?

For the same reason you can't play Muirfield for the same visitor fee as you can play Newbiggin.

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

Why can't you rent a Ferrari for a day for the same price as a Honda Civic?

Wow......not even worth answering Jud........charge more for a daily ticket at Sebonac than at Castle Pines then if that is what point you are driving home.

[JR Potts]

Are you deliberately failing to understand the other side of the discussion?  Or is this more evidence of the difference in systems?  In your case I suspect the former but stand to be corrected.  

In the UK the "green fee" is the sum paid by the visitor (a visitor is unintroduced, an introduced non-member is a guest) for the privilege of playing.

Yes, I can't for the life of me see the logic in the other side of the argument so maybe I don't understand it.  I think a lot of it is rooted in the fact that may espousing the open nature of private American golf don't have the slightest understanding of the financing, operations and expenses of that endeavor.

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

Why can't you rent a Ferrari for a day for the same price as a Honda Civic?

For the same reason you can't play Muirfield for the same visitor fee as you can play Newbiggin.

Wow again.....was that so difficult Mark??? How can you be a private club member in the US yet relish the UK system that allows you to play fabulous high end private clubs where people have 'put up', without 'putting up'......but you dont want it here when you have 'put up'.......

[Jud_T]

Dean,

The funny bit is that if you weren't such a dick about it, you might well get invited to the hallowed grounds you covet at the accompanied rate no less.  Guys, stop typing, go join a club and beg your pro to make a call on your behalf, at whatever the going rate.  Otherwise it's so much mental masturbation...

[Will Lozier]

But, I think a lot of us DO WANT TO EXPERIENCE THESE HALLOWED GROUNDS ONCE WITHOUT PAYING A SUM OF MONEY WE CANNOT AFFORD TO DO SO ON AN EVERYDAY BASIS.  I don't see why you consider promoting this idea "class warfare"!?!?  That is paranoia at best.  

Will, I don't mean to be flippant, but who doesn't want that?  And that goes to the heart of my comments - we all want things that cost money...money that we don't have.  However, golf, like those other things, is a privilege.

Every month I think that there's better use for the money I am writing over to my Club.  Every month I wonder if I would have to get up at 5am and get home at 7pm every day if I could eliminate that cost - but, since golf at my club is a priorty, I keep waking up and keep writing that check - even if it sucks doing so.

JR,

That is exactly my point.  I don't begrudge anyone who has the ability to join a great club nor their right to keep their course off-limits (for the most part).  I would even say that such a course might not have the same mystique if it were easier to experience.  I just don't see why Patrick needs to insult basically everyone who has such a desire to experience (if only once) courses that many of us don't have the means to enjoy every day.  I have great regard for the golf culture overseas and think that visitor play here could be beneficial to all - clubs included.  I also would argue that this debate is relative to the current wealth gap in America, which I see as a huge obstacle to our country being "truly great."

Cheers

[Cliff Hamm]

This entire discussion really comes down to the difference in golf cultures.  One culture has less exclusivity than the other.  The British Isles certainly have exclusive clubs but they don't have the same 'bar the doors' mentality of American clubs.  They also, I suspect, don't have triple digit initiation fees.  Golf is golf over the pond.  Private golf is status here.

That in essence is the problem.  If you allow the huddled masses onto your private enclave you lose that sense of high status and exclusivity.  In the US it's not just about the golf.

BTW..I wonder how many private clubs the ex linebacker coach at Penn State played...

[Dean Stokes]

And now Jud continues the lowering of the tone by abusing a fellow member on this site.....good work Jud. You asked a daft question that was answered with an equally daft answer by Brian before i could. Why call me a dick? Very sad. I have a private club membership Jud and i enjoy it. You like JR are completely missing the point of this debate and seeing it only from one side. I see both but then i have experienced both cultures and systems. Enjoy your membership.

[Jud_T]

Dean,

What exactly is your beef? You have a membership.  I assume you have experienced reciprocal play.  If you want to open your club to the general public, stand up at the next board meeting and say so.  Otherwise, what the hell are we talking about?

[Will Lozier]

This entire discussion really comes down to the difference in golf cultures.  One culture has less exclusivity than the other.  The British Isles certainly have exclusive clubs but they don't have the same 'bar the doors' mentality of American clubs.  They also, I suspect, don't have triple digit initiation fees.  Golf is golf over the pond.  Private golf is status here.

That in essence is the problem.  If you allow the huddled masses onto your private enclave you lose that sense of high status and exclusivity.  In the US it's not just about the golf.

BTW..I wonder how many private clubs the ex linebacker coach at Penn State played...

Well said Cliff!

As for the PSU coach...I would bet that he is a member of a private club.  Better watch your back Patrick.

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

What exactly is your beef? You have a membership.  I assume you have experienced reciprocal play.  If you want to open your club to the general public, stand up at the next board meeting and say so.  Otherwise, what the hell are we talking about?

I have no beef. We are discussing the differing systems between US private clubs and private clubs abroad....quite simple......i get to play many high end private clubs due to friends i have and i feel very fortunate. I merely like the system abroad better that allows us gca fans to see private clubs abroad without being invited! I think it could work here if the members allowed it. I am not angry, upset or whatever you think i am. If we were at an event together i would discuss this at length. How many Americans would go to Ireland if they couldnt play Ballybunion, Lahinch etc with their own group without being invited? Not many i suspect. This is merely a discussion on systems. I see no reason for you to call me a dick on a public forum. Why does this topic make you so upset?

[Jud_T]

I apologize if I was out of line, but I'm not sure where all this is going besides the "occupy Seminole" movement. 

[Dean Stokes]

I apologize if I was out of line, but I'm not sure where all this is going besides the "occupy Seminole" movement. 

Thank you for the apology. When you are sat enjoying a Carlsberg in the clubhouse after 18 holes at Royal Liverpool or Southport and Ainsdale, without playing with a member and without being a reciprocal.....have another think about this thread and how glad you are to see those 'private' clubs for a daily green fee. They didnt make you join for life but you got to experience a great private golf club for the day. Thats all we are talking about here.

[Jud_T]

Dean,

I agree, but that doesn't mean I expect U.S. clubs with entirely different cost, legal and tax structures to fling open their gates and allow greens fees that are below their break even cost.  The U.S. also isn't so reliant on the clubs for tourist $$s.

[Dean Stokes]

And now Jud continues the lowering of the tone by abusing a fellow member on this site.....good work Jud. You asked a daft question that was answered with an equally daft answer by Brian before i could. Why call me a dick? Very sad. I have a private club membership Jud and i enjoy it. You like JR are completely missing the point of this debate and seeing it only from one side. I see both but then i have experienced both cultures and systems. Enjoy your membership.

What was the daft answer I gave?

The same one i gave that obviously wound Jud up.....it was actually the correct answer to the ferrari/civic question......i was more thinking about what my dad used to say......"ask a silly question get a silly answer". i felt the question was silly as it was such an obvious answer. Apologies to everyone anyone want to tee it up?

[Mark Pearce]

Wow again.....was that so difficult Mark??? How can you be a private club member in the US yet relish the UK system that allows you to play fabulous high end private clubs where people have 'put up', without 'putting up'......but you dont want it here when you have 'put up'.......

Dean,

I'm completely lost.  I have no idea what the "was that so difficult?" line is about.  I don't have a "side" in this discussion, I'm trying to understand something that's a mystery to me, but, if I did, it would be yours (subject to understanding the economics better).  Moreover, what on earth gave you the idea that I'm a private club member in the US?  I am a member of two private clubs but one is in Newcastle, England, where I live and one is in Crail, Fife, Scotland.

[Dean Stokes]

Mark, that was not meant to be for you! You are on my team i think it was for JR who is constantly telling us to put up if we wish to see a private course for one day as a visiting group......which we are willing to do....only just for one day - also at a premium!

[Jud_T]

Mark,

If you're a club member in the UK and are coming to the states, you can have your pro write a letter or make a call and get you on all but a handful of courses, particularly if it's not in high season.  If you wish to begrudge the fact that you have to pay a premium greens fee for this service, there are plenty of more reasonable public options available. 

[JR Potts]

Mark,

If you're a club member in the UK and are coming to the states, you can have your pro write a letter or make a call and get you on all but a handful of courses, particularly if it's not in high season.  If you wish to begrudge the fact that you have to pay a premium greens fee for this service, there are plenty of more reasonable public options available.  

Amen again.

Mark - you don't understand the United States at all - and that's not a critique.  I clearly don't understand the UK.  If a private club were to open up its doors to the public, first, it could lose its non-for-profit status.  Second, it would be legally tenuous for it to discriminate.  While we can agree that discrimination based on color, creed, etc are bad, there's also good discrimination when attempting to keep a level of service, standards and conditions. In the US, a lot of these clubs aren't just golf clubs but there are social clubs and "homes away from homes" for many.  Just as you likely don't invite ANYONE into your house, these clubs don't just invite anyone in as they are perceived as their homes (dinner locations, locations for their kids, recreation locations).

That's why, as Pat aptly points out and as I flippantly say, "put up or shut up", it's easier to accept members from other Clubs as they are theoretically "pre-vetted."  

Finally, Dean, you're changing your tune more than the politicians in Washington.  So now you're willing to pay a premium?  My bet, you can get on most anywhere if you're willing to pay.  There are outings at most Clubs (fundraisers by private parties) and anyone with a charitable bone has run across numerous opportunities to play most anywhere at a litany of charity events.  So, is it that you want and think you deserve access or cheap access?

I'm sorry to say this but nobody on this board wants the average American showing up at any of their private clubs to play on a daily/weekly/monthly or even yearly basis.  Pat has said so much in his own way and I tend to agree.

And I haven't even gotten into the financing ramifications.  Many seem to think the greens fees makes up for the individuals "club footprint" that day.  This isn't even close to true.  What does it cost to staff a course for play, to pay of the massive clubhouses, the staff, the tax bill, the pool, the gun club, the holiday events, the management, the inventory, the merchandise, the driving range, the carts, the equipment, the HVAC upkeep, etc.....all to make that guest a "member" for one day.  US Clubs don't have the benefit of an extra 200 years of payments and are burdened with labor issues, tax issues and expectations a whole lot different than what's going on in the UK.

If you're going to merely look at the greens fee and ignore the other factors that go into a round of golf and a "member for a day" experience, I paid around $1,600.00 per round of golf this year at my club.