David Fay on Opening of Masterpieces to Non-Members

[Bruce Hardie]

I think Mr Mucci is moving the goalposts now, from the vanishingly unlikely sexual predator taking advantage of access to kids in the club pool, to the more general liability for incidents involving a visitor to the club.

Most US states impose specific requirements for the tort of negligence:
-Duty
-Breach
-Cause in Fact
-Proximate (Legal) Cause
-Damages  (from http://randazza.wordpress.com)

It appears that no data is kept on the number of cases sought, how many are struck down either prior to or during a trial or how many are settled, and I suspect that is just how the lawyers like it. Which is why Patrick and others in similar positions see potential law suits everywhere and decide that it just isn't worth the bother. Risk management is hard. However, all of the above criteria apply to the myriad of non-member visitors that come through the gates each day. Delivery drivers, cleaners, garbage collectors etc. could all injure themselves or others on the grounds with the same potential lawsuit liabilities. Do you prevent them from arriving? Or do you look at the criteria with a steely eye and decide that you have done your best to cover them off for everyone on the grounds, whether or not they are members. If you can't do that then your risk profile is already too high.

[Mark Chaplin]

Rye which is one of Britain's most exclusive clubs was sued two or three years ago when a member slipped in the shower. So yes even the upper classes will sue their club.

Cretinism refers to a person whose condition results in severely stunted physical and mental growth due to untreated congenital deficiency of thyroid hormones.

Calling someone a cretin is thus mocking a disability and highly offensive, please withdraw it.

[Mark_F]

What you and the other cretins.

You bozos

Horseshit.

Otto,

If you are at all indicative of the average icon golf club member, there is no wonder you want to keep it to yourself.  You don't want the vast majority of decent people seeing what a bunch of ill-mannered, boorish charlatans you all are.  Thank heavens you only comprise 1%.  

If a member slips in the shower and breaks his arm, or slips going down a set of steps from a tee/green and breaks his arm, will he sue the club ?
If a "general public" golfer experiences the same fate, will he sue that club ? You bet he will.
So why would a club want to expose themselves to the additional liability associated with allowing the general public unfettered access ?

How about just making the club available to disabled golfers then?  You wouldn't have to worry about them slipping in the shower, you could just hose them off in their wheelchairs behind the pro shop.   If you further limit access  to double amputees or Thalidomide victims, you won't have to worry about them slipping down the steps and breaking a limb, either.

And since "sexual harrassment" seems to be in the news, you should know that the club's can be liable for the conduct of an outsider, a member of the general public you glorify, should they make inappropriate comments to the wait staff.  

A club can be liable for the great unwashed making an inappropriate remark, but 15% of the USA's population are on food stamps? No wonder you are absolutely stuffed as a nation.

You just want what somebody else has and you want it without paying for it, or you want it at a deep discount.

That isn't true at all.  The only thing I want that someone else has is Peter North's cock.  I would happily pay for it, and given that he used to do gay for pay, I would only expect a 10% discount.

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

So what you're really worried about is that if you let the "general public" onto the USA's finest courses, they might behave much the same as you have in this thread?

[PCCraig]

What the "general public" (not my term) needs to understand is that probably 95% of private clubs are open to them becoming members, all they need to do is pass a general screening and write a check. "Private" golf really isn't as exclusive as many on here are making it out to be.

If I were a club president or GM and David Fay told me that I should open my course for the public to see I would politely direct them to a stack of membership applications.

[Dean Stokes]

What the "general public" (not my term) needs to understand is that probably 95% of private clubs are open to them becoming members, all they need to do is pass a general screening and write a check. "Private" golf really isn't as exclusive as many on here are making it out to be.

If I were a club president or GM and David Fay told me that I should open my course for the public to see I would politely direct them to a stack of membership applications.

Pat, there are over 22000 clubs in tis country.....show me how many clubs have 'stacks of membership applications' please....as opposed to the clubs with stacks of requests for their over inflated initiation fees back please.

[Dean Stokes]

Question - these initiation fees - when you leave a club, do you get that back with interest? When you die, does your next of Kin get it back or have the option of taking over your membership?

Neither. You will be lucky to ever get anything back and if you do it will usually be 80% with no interest. Many golfers add themselves to the wait list to get out the day they join so as to increase their chance of just getting out! In fact the equity model reLly works no longer so most clubs have now gone to oa non equity deal where you pay your initiation and it allows you to be a member for life but you get nothing back if you leave.

[Mark Pearce]

Frankly, if members of these icon clubs behaved like Pat Mucci on this thread they wouldn't have a problem with any ordinary golfer wanting access.  Fortunately my experience would suggest that Mr Mucci is not representative at all of the gentlemen that are members of these clubs.  Which begs the question: is he really this objectionable in real life or is his participation on GCA some odd form of role-play?  I strongly suspect the latter.

It would, of course, be great were he to acknowledge that his abusive use of the term cretin was inappropriate but I suspect hell will freeze over before Pat Mucci apologises on a GCA thread.

[JR Potts]

What the "general public" (not my term) needs to understand is that probably 95% of private clubs are open to them becoming members, all they need to do is pass a general screening and write a check. "Private" golf really isn't as exclusive as many on here are making it out to be.

If I were a club president or GM and David Fay told me that I should open my course for the public to see I would politely direct them to a stack of membership applications.

Exactly!  Amen P. Craig!

To those who complain, I say, "put up or shut up!"  .... Or get  better friends.  

[Jud_T]

What the "general public" (not my term) needs to understand is that probably 95% of private clubs are open to them becoming members, all they need to do is pass a general screening and write a check. "Private" golf really isn't as exclusive as many on here are making it out to be.

bingo.  it's all supply and demand and the equation has shifted markedly to supply in the past 3 years.  If everyone and their brother didn't think Augusta National was the sh*t, they'd be having a ladies luncheon scramble in no time....

[Mark Pearce]

JRP, Pat, (or anyone else, in fact)

I can completely understand why someone who has spent tens of thousands to join a club would not want non-members to have ready access, even at restricted times.  What I don't understand is why these clubs are so expensive to join.  I would be surprised if the majority of iconic UK clubs (Hon Company, Prestwick, RSG et al) cost more than a couple of thousand entry fee and something less than that per annum.  Is this purely down to the offering of other facilities (pools etc.) and the levels of service?  If you're only paying £2000 a year to be a member of a club you'll be far more willing to allow Joe Public (with a handicap certificate) to play at selected quiet times for £150, particularly if, by doing so, you keep that subscription down.

This is a completely unloaded question, by the way, I just don't understand the economics of the US system.

[Dean Stokes]

Many people dont have the ability to put up JR.......and the point of this debate is that abroad you do not need that ability to be able to pay. You can pay a guest fee and enjoy great golf architecture. Now if i could afford 80k or 200k or now even 1MM iin the US for a golf membership i still would not pay it! I do not see the value in that as well as 80% of golfers who can afford that amount  not being people that i wish to golf/compete/socialize with!!!!!! That said.....if i were a member of such a club i would not employ the mind set that you have that i paid it and screw those who cant. I would hope that a scratch handicap school teacher from another city would be able to experience my club and go away and talk about it (free advertsing that many clubs need right now). As i said before they are merely golf courses.....not gold plated Picassos.....they are there to be seen and be played by people who love golf. Voila!

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Try buying 200 acres of prime real estate within an hour of New York, LA or Chicago for starters.  Secondly it's simply supply and demand.  If you've got 300 guys who can afford it and don't want to drive an hour on Saturday mornings for a game on a quality track, you charge what the market will bear.  Thirdly, rock star conditioning and service doesn't come cheaply.

[Dean Stokes]

JRP, Pat, (or anyone else, in fact)

I can completely understand why someone who has spent tens of thousands to join a club would not want non-members to have ready access, even at restricted times.  What I don't understand is why these clubs are so expensive to join.  I would be surprised if the majority of iconic UK clubs (Hon Company, Prestwick, RSG et al) cost more than a couple of thousand entry fee and something less than that per annum.  Is this purely down to the offering of other facilities (pools etc.) and the levels of service?  If you're only paying £2000 a year to be a member of a club you'll be far more willing to allow Joe Public (with a handicap certificate) to play at selected quiet times for £150, particularly if, by doing so, you keep that subscription down.

This is a completely unloaded question, by the way, I just don't understand the economics of the US system.

Very simple Mark.......simple economics.....supply and demand. If 200 guys are willing to pay 200k to be a member of your club why would you only charge 50k? You also ensure no 'riff raff'.....you also ensure that you better bring your own game as there will not be 20 guys sat around looking for a knock about!!!!! Lol.

[Jud_T]

if i were a member of such a club i would not employ the mind set that you have that i paid it and screw those who cant. I would hope that a scratch handicap school teacher from another city would be able to experience my club and go away and talk about it (free advertsing that many clubs need right now). As i said before they are merely golf courses.....not gold plated Picassos.....they are there to be seen and be played by people who love golf. Voila!

Dean,

Ever heard of reciprocal play?  Ever heard of top courses letting high school teams practice and play regularly for free?

[Dean Stokes]

if i were a member of such a club i would not employ the mind set that you have that i paid it and screw those who cant. I would hope that a scratch handicap school teacher from another city would be able to experience my club and go away and talk about it (free advertsing that many clubs need right now). As i said before they are merely golf courses.....not gold plated Picassos.....they are there to be seen and be played by people who love golf. Voila!

Dean,

Ever heard of reciprocal play?  Ever heard of top courses letting high school teams practice and play regularly for free?

How does that help the scratch hcp school teacher who doesnt have a membership, but has a love of gca and will probably appreciate the architecture more than half the members or guests ever will.

[Mike_Young]

That said.....if i were a member of such a club i would not employ the mind set that you have that i paid it and screw those who cant. I would hope that a scratch handicap school teacher from another city would be able to experience my club and go away and talk about it (free advertsing that many clubs need right now). As i said before they are merely golf courses.....not gold plated Picassos.....they are there to be seen and be played by people who love golf. Voila!

Dean,
I think that can happen on a daily basis and does but it is done via invitation from a member right?  

[C. Squier]

Dean - how many people a year do you let use your car/house/wife?

I'm sure you've paid good money for all 3, just how charitable are you?  I'm being flippant about the 3rd, but dead serious about the first two.  

I'd also wager highly that property taxes in the US absolutely dwarf any in the UK.  I know what my club pays, it ain't pretty....I'd bet we pay more per person just for the RE taxes than many do for their total annual dues in the UK.  That is a 100% unavoidable cost members need to bear.  

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

Try buying 200 acres of prime real estate within an hour of New York, LA or Chicago for starters.  Secondly it's simply supply and demand.  If you've got 300 guys who can aford it and don't want to drive an hour on Saturday mornings for a game on a quality track, you charge what the market will bear.  Thirdly, rock star conditioning and service doesn't come cheaply.

I understood that, like most iconic UK courses the majority of iconic US courses were built at a time when property costs were significantly lower, so I don't buty that, except in the case of new courses, where it's clearly a factor.  New upscale UK courses tend to be significantly more expensive, too, though not at US rates.

As to "what the market will bear" aren't these private members clubs?  What happens to the profits?  I'm sure UK iconic courses could charge far more and still be full but why would they?  They're members clubs for the benefit of the members and the current membership structure ensures they let in who they want far better than a hike in price.

[JR Potts]

I can speak for a lot of clubs around the Chicagoland area in saying that these clubs have routinely opened up their doors to "the outside".  Most every club I can think of has donated their course and their resources to the USGA, CDGA, PGA, IPGA, AJGA, IJGA, WGA, Evans Scholars, Veteran's Funds, Hospitals, High Schools, etc.

Seems to me that a lot of you want personal access for something that you have not paid.  I don't get it.  Again, if you want to see a course and don't to pay what others have and are willing to pay to join, buy a ticket to an event.  Surely, in 99.9% of cases, there will be one.  

Yes, private county clubs in the US are a bit exclusionary - but not any more so than any other activity.  You want to take the train to work, you need to pay for it.  You want to fly to a new city, you have to pay for it.  If you want a warm napkin, nuts and all you can drink swill wine, you pay a little more.  Private golf in the US is no different.

If you are in a metropolitan area where wages are higher, labor is higher, land use is higher and the demand is apparent, the price just happens to be higher.  So be it.

Playing great golf courses is a privilege, not a right.

[Dean Stokes]

Dean - how many people a year do you let use your car/house/wife?

I'm sure you've paid good money for all 3, just how charitable are you?  I'm being flippant about the 3rd, but dead serious about the first two.  

I'd also wager highly that property taxes in the US absolutely dwarf any in the UK.  I know what my club pays, it ain't pretty....I'd bet we pay more per person just for the RE taxes than many do for their total annual dues in the UK.  That is a 100% unavoidable cost members need to bear.  

What a terrible analogy. You dont own your golf club. You own your car and house. You pay to be a member of a club and a guest fee allows a non member to be member for a day. Completely different.

[Jud_T]

The other thing you guys are missing that I think Pat is trying to communicate between the lines is the fact that virtually all private clubs do sponsor unaccompanied play from time to time, they just don't advertise it.  From kids trying to play their way onto a college team or the minitours to deserving folks from other clubs around the globe.  They simply reserve the right to not open their gates to any clown with a couple hundred bucks burning a hole in his shorts and a chubby to tick all the top 100 off their mounted list in the den...

[Mark Pearce]

I'd also wager highly that property taxes in the US absolutely dwarf any in the UK.  I know what my club pays, it ain't pretty....I'd bet we pay more per person just for the RE taxes than many do for their total annual dues in the UK.  That is a 100% unavoidable cost members need to bear.  

Thanks.  That's exactly the sort of insight I was looking for. 

[Dean Stokes]

That said.....if i were a member of such a club i would not employ the mind set that you have that i paid it and screw those who cant. I would hope that a scratch handicap school teacher from another city would be able to experience my club and go away and talk about it (free advertsing that many clubs need right now). As i said before they are merely golf courses.....not gold plated Picassos.....they are there to be seen and be played by people who love golf. Voila!

Dean,
I think that can happen on a daily basis and does but it is done via invitation from a member right?  

Mike, how many private clubs have you played in the British Isles without a member in the group? Maybe you havent but i have American friends who do it every year......there ate members of those clubs who have paid good money to be members but are willing to share. Perhaps it is just a different mindset over there. Ps. I have no skin in this game guys......i have a private golf club membership in the US that cost me a good chunk. If 4 of younwho are public course players but have a hcp certificate and dress correctly wanted to pay a daily rate for an unpopular tee time at our club i would absolutely welcome it and would also enjoy a cold beer in the clubhouse to discuss your thoughts.....good or bad. Good thing we are all different i guess!

[JR Potts]

No Brian, the payment is not the green fee.  The green fee is just a number that helps the Club pay part of its operations.  The club assumes that the MEMBER is paying the greens fee so there's a balance in that cost.  The rest of ithe Club's operations are subsidized by dues, member use and other member payments.

My club opens up two times to outside groups per day....and the members/club have decided that the inconvenience to them is worth $500 per guy....and those times are filled every day.

"Put up or shut up."