[Kin Britton]

I actually  agree with what David Fay proposes but do not see it as a workable solution.  Of course it is a bit of a selfish reaction.  Who wouldn't like agolf trip to the NYC area and being able to just email and make tee times at NGLA, Fishers Island, Shinnencock, Baltusrol and Winged Foot???  Being a member of  private club, I can assure you it will get no traction from boards etc.  

In reality, it's also an apple to oranges comparison.  For example, I have yet to see a pool or tennis courts at a club in Scotland!  Also, the demographics are completely different.  Think about the populations around Troon, Muirfield, Dornoch andeven a larger city like Aberdeen vs the population near WInged Foot, Seminole, NGLA, LA Country Club...even Augusta dwarfs North Berwick.

The Scottish clubs do use the tourist dollar to keep local dues much reduced.  Ball park green fees were 100-105 pounds at Aberdeen as a visitor in 2008.  We then played with a member and the fee was about 15-20 pounds.

Anyway, kudos to Mr. Fay fortilting at windmills.  Not very realistic but a good topic to discuss on a fall evening.

[JC Jones]

I've notched enough bedposts in my day to not care to play any club that isn't welcoming of my gregarious personality, impeccable etiquette and tour-worthy game, even if my pro can get me on...

I'm trying to determine whether there are any clubs who meet your criteria (including the one you belong to).

[Wade Schueneman]

Ron,

The judge in the Haverhill case ruled that unaccompanied guests essentially formed a class of members and as such, their number, when combined with the regular membership, thrust them over the strictly private threshold, subjecting them to the State's non-discrimination statutes.

I don't think there's a private club in the U.S. That wants to risk that consequence.

David Fay should be keenly aware of that situation, therefore I don't understand his advocacy.

Pat,

Isn't Haverhill a Mass case? How can it affect clubs outside of Mass?


 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Haverhill case is not a Tax Court case. The Court decided that a private club can be a public accomodation because it holds weddings,etc and therefore subject to a discrimination case involving limited spousal tee times of the men members:

The jury also found that the plaintiffs were correct on a crucial legal point -- that Haverhill, although a private club, had conducted its membership and business practices in ways that qualified it as a public accommodation and thus made it subject to state antidiscrimination laws. As a result, the jury was entitled to impose sanctions.


http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/30/sports/golf-golf-club-faces-steep-penalties-in-sex-bias-case.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Here's the Appeals court decision:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ma-court-of-appeals/1358590.html

I think the major factor is limiting outside play and event revenue to 15% to remain private and not be taxed.

My advice: Play a charity event if you don't have an in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

The judge in the Haverhill case ruled that unaccompanied guests essentially formed a class of members and as such, their number, when combined with the regular membership, thrust them over the strictly private threshold, subjecting them to the State's non-discrimination statutes.

I don't think there's a private club in the U.S. That wants to risk that consequence.

David Fay should be keenly aware of that situation, therefore I don't understand his advocacy.

Pat,

Isn't Haverhill a Mass case? How can it affect clubs outside of Mass?

Wade,

Shirley you jest !






 

[Mark Chaplin]

Michael -

1. Courses can get busy but visitors are usually restricted on days/times during the week especially ladies and senior times. Here 500-750 members would be around the number.

2. No, member play would still be 75% at most clubs.

3. Mondays do not exist clubs open every day. I cannot understand why clubs that open for as little as six months of the year then close on Mondays crazy. Hasn't the idea of staff rotas crossed the minds of US clubs? The argument of "maintainance" is bull Royal Melbourne, Prestwick, Sunningdale and Royal County Down do not close and they are pretty well looked after.

4. Guest fees are generally between 5-25% of the unaccompanied visitor rate.

[Ronald Montesano]

Steve's point about playing a charity event segues to the "how much is it worth to you" question. What might the most expensive private club in England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland/N.Ireland charge a guest? I am confident that you that you won't get on one of the finest courses in the USA for less than $750-$1000 for a charity event. That freight excludes most golfers who cannot justify paying such exhorbitance for 18 holes. (I know a guy who plays Fisher's Island once a year, every year, in a charity event, but I forget what he pays.)

[JC Jones]

The Haverhill case is not a Tax Court case. The Court decided that a private club can be a public accomodation because it holds weddings,etc and therefore subject to a discrimination case involving limited spousal tee times of the men members:

The jury also found that the plaintiffs were correct on a crucial legal point -- that Haverhill, although a private club, had conducted its membership and business practices in ways that qualified it as a public accommodation and thus made it subject to state antidiscrimination laws. As a result, the jury was entitled to impose sanctions.


http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/30/sports/golf-golf-club-faces-steep-penalties-in-sex-bias-case.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Here's the Appeals court decision:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ma-court-of-appeals/1358590.html

I think the major factor is limiting outside play and event revenue to 15% to remain private and not be taxed.

My advice: Play a charity event if you don't have an in.

It is obvious that Haverhill turned on the fact that two members were caught cavorting in the buff with two waitresses in the Club swimming pool and didn't suffer any sort of serious consequence.

[Adam Lawrence]

Steve's point about playing a charity event segues to the "how much is it worth to you" question. What might the most expensive private club in England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland/N.Ireland charge a guest? I am confident that you that you won't get on one of the finest courses in the USA for less than $750-$1000 for a charity event. That freight excludes most golfers who cannot justify paying such exhorbitance for 18 holes. (I know a guy who plays Fisher's Island once a year, every year, in a charity event, but I forget what he pays.)

I'm pretty certain that the most expensive visitor fee in the UK is Wentworth West, which astonishingly runs £360 (including mandatory caddie) in summer. That's USD 577 at current rates. But I'm not sure I can think of anywhere else that is more than £200 for a single round. Sunningdale is £280, but that's for a 36 hole day including both courses.

[Jud_T]

I've notched enough bedposts in my day to not care to play any club that isn't welcoming of my gregarious personality, impeccable etiquette and tour-worthy game, even if my pro can get me on...

I'm trying to determine whether there are any clubs who meet your criteria (including the one you belong to).

 

[Mark Chaplin]

Wentworth West is indeed £360 but there is very little pure visitor play and the greens are currently very poor (last week) with little root depth and lots of marking.

Top 25 GB&I courses tend to be around £100-150 per round. On par with accompanied rates at the top 10 US courses I've played.

Accompanied rates can be as little as £10-20 at the very finest clubs, where the guest fee is considered a member benefit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Clubs have problems with unaccompanied guests who are sponsored by the member or Pro.

What accountability would exist for golfers who were granted playing privileges absent that sponsorship ?

[JMEvensky]

Clubs have problems with unaccompanied guests who are sponsored by the member or Pro.

Not as much as they used to. A higher fee for unaccompanied guests makes the problems a lot more palatable for some Boards.

[Pete Lavallee]

[It's funny that the American posters keep posing specific hypothetical problems and the UK guys keep coming back with: will you just trust us: it works fine!

Brian,

There is a disticnt ciultural difference at paly here, namely courtesy. The best anaogy I can offer is overtaking on the motorway; in the UK people use the passing lane just to overtake the car in front and then imeadiately return to the slow lane. Here in the USA you will often see 4 cars all doing the speed limit on a four lane highway, blocking all those behind them; zero regard for anyone other than themselves.

[Chris Kane]

It will never happen - for reasons of economics and culture.

British clubs run on a much lower cost base, offering (generally) more limited member services and hence charging lower initiation fees and member subscriptions. If membership costs £1000 or £1500 a year (£20 or £30 a week) members are less likely to be bothered by an outsider paying £100-150 to play. If an American has committed $40,000-100,000 to join and $10,000 in dues, its understandable they might object to someone paying $250 

Others may disagree, but to me the difference between British and American golf clubs is that joining a British club is about buying regular access to a course, whereas joining an American club is about buying a (shared) exclusive right to it. This is where culture comes in - in the UK the courses are not exclusive, but the clubs certainly are. At a deeper sociological level, there are some clear lessons about the differences in class structure between Britain and America.   
 
Below is a photo of the carpark and clubhouse at Prestwick, one of the world's great clubs and one of the UK's most prestigious. Is there any club of even remotely similiar standing in America that is separated from a public road by a waist high fence?



I've seen Pat Mucci raise the 'quality control' argument a couple of times before - the experience of Muirfield, Royal Melbourne etc is always raised to show that this is rubbish. I haven't seen Pat offer an argument in rebuttal of that previously.

[Ronald Montesano]

Accountability, thy name is Ranger!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Accountability, thy name is Ranger!

Ron,

Tell me the last time you saw a ranger at Seminole, NGLA, GCGC, WFW, Fishers Island, CPC, PV, or any other "Target Icon" club ?

Chris Kane,

You stated, "I've seen Pat Mucci raise the 'quality control' argument a couple of times before - the experience of Muirfield, Royal Melbourne etc is always raised to show that this is rubbish.
I haven't seen Pat offer an argument in rebuttal of that previously."


You don't get it.
You can't cite the experiences at Muirfield and Royal Melbourne, where the cultures are vastly different, and use that in support of access to U.S. golf courses and the culture of golf in the U.S.

As to my "argument in rebuttal", I'll cite the 40+ years that I served on Boards and committees at a number of clubs where experiences with unaccompanied guests caused problems to the degree that the club either reprimanded the sponsoring individual and/or changed its policy on unaccompanied guests, even though they were sponsored by a member or the head professional.

What evidence can you cite that leads you to conclude that in the U.S. unaccompanied golfers, with absolutely no connection to the club, would behave/dress properly ?

This past summer I was playing Southampton Golf Course with Gene Greco and some friends.
An individual who belongs to a few of the "Target Icon" clubs came out to watch us and mentioned that he gets a kick out of some who post on GCA.com, who pontificate about how things are done at private clubs, when they have absolutely no experience to support their claims.
He further went on to say that he stopped participating on GCA.com because of bad experiences with individuals on GCA.com who gained access to his clubs, through him, and didn't conduct themselves properly.  So, please, don't pretend that you know what you're talking about on this issue.

On other issues, continue to offer you welcomed opinions

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, my own club in Melbourne has a small amount of Manager-introduced guests from interstate and overseas during the week, and it doesn't cause a problem. Dress and behavioural standards are policed exactly the same as they are for the members and their guests.

But you could be right about America being different. If you want to mount the argument that Americans have no class when compared to Brits or Australians, I'm not going to stop you!

[Chris Kane]

I will add that you describe a pretty sad golfing culture if golfers are invited to a club and not conducting themselves appropriately.

[Mac Plumart]

I fully support private clubs wanting to be private.  Perhaps members of said courses value their privacy first and foremost.  They want to go somewhere to have some peace.  They paid their initiation and dues to have that privledge.  Why would non-members have the power to say anything about how a club operates its business?  They shouldn't.  Members should.

[Ted Cahill]

Chris K- I agree with your assessment.  Interesting- it's the UK and Aussie folks who, in my American opinion, have the more clear eyed assessment of American culture than most of our American posters.  Not a surprise, Americans are not very good at admitting our shortcomings. 

Most of us on this board would agree with the statement:  UK has a better golfing culture than the US.  UK= walking, links, match play. US=carts, indifferent design, stroke play, slow play. 

While in both the UK and US, it was the upper classes of both countries that nurtured the game in it's formative years- the UK clubs were less concerned with exclusivity and, therefore, set a better example and had a greater positive influence on the game as it expanded.

In the US, the icon clubs used golf as a measuring stick of wealth and exclusivity.  I believe this attitude contributed to an indifference to the games' progress outside of these exclusive clubs- and allowed golf in the US to be turned into a vehicle to sell real estate and golf cart fees. 

[Mark Johnson]

I will add that you describe a pretty sad golfing culture if golfers are invited to a club and not conducting themselves appropriately.

While I will fully agree with 90% of ugly American characterizations, I think we need to clarify the term "invited guest".  There is significant reciprocity among 95% of clubs here.  My head pr could probably get me on almost any course in the us outside the top 100 and about half within the top 100

Clubs are often afraid to complain about bad behavior because they don't want to lose these privileges for their members. 

[Mark Pearce]

I have limited experience of both public and private courses in the US, perhaps 20/30 rounds.  I may be very lucky but I have seen very little no evidence of the golfing culture (or lack of it) which gives Pat Mucci so much concern.  Of course it's very common for privileged minorities to have very distorted views of the behaviour of the majority.

[Sean_A]

I don't know.  I am sure Pat doesn't mean to imply Americans are classless, but on the hand, I have seen the most outrageous behaviour on American courses.  The fact that the majority of the behaviour took place on public courses may ease the worry some, but I have seen a lot of club throwing, tee marker breaker and loud swearing on private courses as well.  The only conclusion to draw is that there are different and perhaps unique golfing cultures in the States compared to England, some of which are rather unappealing.  I can understand the apprehension of allowing visitors if that has never been the policy of the club (clubs are basically quite conservative by nature) and particularly if the club doesn't need the money.  Still, I think it is a shame some compromise can't be worked whereby the unconnected can fulfil lifetime ambitions of playing the odd golf wonder of the US.  I think we all have to remember that golf is an inclusive game and to therefore shut people out from experiencing some of the rich history of the game is not a position to be admired.  Yes, I do think the historic clubs should have a sense of noblese oblige because they, at least to some degree, hold the keys to the history of the game.   

Ciao     

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

It's quite possible I've been lucky but I have found nothing other than real generousity and welcoming behaviour at both private and public courses in the US.  I'm sure being a Brit makes a bit of a difference and I'm not stupid enough to think that bad behaviour doesn't happen.  I've just seen no evidence of it on my visits.  I have seen it, thankfully very rarely, over here and it isn't restricted to public courses.

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