News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Don_Mahaffey

Walter Travis
« on: January 04, 2002, 04:29:33 PM »
I’m curious about the work of Walter Travis. Did he have a distinctive style with his greens or bunkers? What are the best examples of his work, either original or through restoration. Is he considered a golden age architect? Does anyone know of any online resources where I could research his work?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2002, 05:55:18 PM »
Don,

The courses most notably associated with Walter Travis are Garden City Golf Club, and Westchester CC(Hosts the Buick Classic,PGA Tour)

There is a great book("Golf Clubs of the MGA") that contains info about Travis, his work at the courses listed above and many other courses. It is sold through the Metropolitan Golf Asso. website:mgagolf.org
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2002, 06:35:35 PM »
Don,

I am not familiar with Travis' work at Garden City since I have never seen the course, But I am very familiar with the Westchester layout.

At Westchester, Travis was presented with a great natural site that contains quite a bit of elevation change, rock outcroppings and trees.  I think the routing is very good, Travis made very good use of the elevation change for many holes. Downhill/uphill tee shots as well as approach shots. There is a good variety of left to right and right to left holes, and also a good mix of yardage on the par 4's. By today's standards the course is short at 6700 yds. When setup properly it is a classic course that many of tha players on the Tour like.

The greens are quite varied in size and slope. Travis used multiple tiers in many greens as well as some great interior contouring.  The bunkers have recently been renovated since I last played there, and I'm curious to see how they turned out.

Hope this helps.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2002, 07:21:05 PM »
Don
I'd characterize his designs as very bold. Bold in his deep sand hazards - and sometimes lots of them - and bold greens - some wildly so. I'd say he leaned more toward the penal, probably because he was a short but very accurate player with a spectacular short game. Although his courses are perhaps more penal, they are also great fun with plenty of strategic interest. I would agree with Garden City and Westchester, and add Columbia outside DC, Hollywood in NJ and Ekwanok in Vermont (which is profiled on this site). I would consider him a golden age architect and the best source of info would be a book entitled the 'Old Man' - and there is a interview with the author on this site Bob Labbance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2002, 07:43:41 PM »
I hope this link works, Don.

www.golfonline.com/history/features/travis0900.html

It's an article written by B. Labbance

"They don't build courses for people. They build monuments to themselves."     George Archer on golf architects
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2002, 08:03:02 PM »
I'd say that Jamie and Tom did a really good job of describing the Travis style. The course I'm most familiar with is Westchester CC.  Garden City is built on about as different a site from Westchester as you can think of yet Travis was able to build a superior/elite course in each case.

A hidden gem of his that I recently got a chance to play is Round Hill Club in Greenwich CT.  It is built on land very similar to Westchester and during my round there I realized that Travis had the ability to find exceptionally natural greensites on all his golf courses.  Other then some of the very deep hazards, I think this is the most striking feature I can find in his work.  

Perhaps Brad Miller would like to add something about Round Hill as he has played there many times.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cbradmiller

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2002, 09:02:33 PM »
Have played RHC often as Geoff mentioned, in my opinion warrents consideration for top 100 Classic-GW. Varied and interesting routing, natural greensites with great contours, interesting undulating ground giving many different lies in fairways. Better par 3's and 5's than Westchester, and it's par 4's are also strong and well balanced. One of a small handfull of courses that make up CT's second tier after Yale. (Fairfield, Stanwich, Wee Burn) Will be part of next years Mid-Am along with Stanwich, will be neat to see how these two play. As with many MGA courses it could do less water and fewer trees, mostly pines on the left sides of a few holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2002, 09:37:54 PM »
From the feature interview with Bob Labbance,

“8. If someone wanted to get a sense of the Travis design style today, which five courses should they visit?

Ekwanok in Vermont, Cape Arundel in Maine, Yahnundasis in New York, CC of Scranton in Pennsylvania and Hollywood in New Jersey - if you don't get it after playing these, you won't.”


I’ve read about Ekwanok, but heard little about the rest. What is it about Cape Arundel, Yahnundasis, CC of Scranton and Hollywood that demonstrate Travis’ design style. I know at least two of these courses are in the process of restoration. Has anyone played them all, or a few of them? I’ve never heard of them (of course I’m from the west), but I wonder if they are considered hidden gems or older courses too short to challenge the modern player.

On a side note to Pat Mucci and TE Paul, now you know who is to blame for the abolishment of the stymie. The following quote is from another Labbance article link supplied by Craig,
 
“In nearly every way, Travis was ahead of his contemporaries. He suggested the abolition of the stymie in 1912, nearly four decades before it was deleted from the Rules. He engineered a series of international matches with the Oxford and Cambridge Golf Society in 1903, two decades before the Ryder or Walker Cups came to pass. He developed the first handicapping system for play in the Metropolitan Section -- a plan that was later adopted throughout the country. He suggested a better way to display handicap information on the scorecard -- a system that has been used universally ever since. For that matter, Travis was seldom seen playing golf without a cigar in his mouth, a century before there were glossy magazines extolling the social benefits of stogies.”

Sounds like an interesting guy.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cbradmiller

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2002, 03:05:19 AM »
Have played RHC often as Geoff mentioned, in my opinion warrents consideration for top 100 Classic-GW. Varied and interesting routing, natural greensites with great contours, interesting undulating ground giving many different lies in fairways. Better par 3's and 5's than Westchester, and it's par 4's are also strong and well balanced. One of a small handfull of courses that make up CT's second tier after Yale. (Fairfield, Stanwich, Wee Burn) Will be part of next years Mid-Am along with Stanwich, will be neat to see how these two play. As with many MGA courses it could do less water and fewer trees, mostly pines on the left sides of a few holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2002, 07:07:22 AM »
CC of Scranton is a "hidden gem" and while it has been lengthened some over the years, is largely true to its original design.  The green complexes are the heart of the course.  They are small/ average in size but sharply contoured.  Several of the greens are multi-tiered and there are numerous "elephant mounds" that create a multitude of fascinating pin positions.  The routing is basically two loops over rather hilly terrain with a few really severe slopes.  There is an abundance of uneven lies.  The bunkering is mixed with several wonderful greenside bunkers but there are also some newer mundane, nonstrategic fairway "traps."  The maintenance practices produce a lush, soft, green course generally coveted by the members but this minimizes the strategic effect of the natural fairway contours and the artful green shapings producing target golf.  Firm, fast green entrances and putting surfaces could produce very exciting, dramatic play options.  Overall  the couse is a little short at about 6600 yard/par 72 with all 4 par 5's quite reachable  but there are some wonderful shot values,potentially awesome greens and a very delightful setting.  At least a 5or 6 on the Doak scale IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2002, 07:18:47 AM »
PS  Scranton is very unlike GCGC, the other Travis layout with which I am quite familiar--The land is so different as GC is flat The GC greens while severe are tilted rather than contoured and GC bunkering deeper and smaller.  I suspect the evolution af each course may have accentuated some basic differences
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2002, 08:30:01 AM »
There is a Travis course on the Niagara penninsula that I have added to my list for next year, but I am not sure how much of the original remains.  It is called Lookout Point.
I enjoyed the two courses in Manchester, though I understand Rees dramatically changed the Equinox course.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2002, 10:08:09 AM »
JGAndriole,

I concur with all of your thoughts on CC of Scranton.  Although I've never played the course, I grew up nearby and walked it quite a number of times watching tournaments.

I'm glad to hear it hasn't changed since I was there last, although I do know that Michael Hurdzan added 9 holes to make it 27.

The original 18 is chock-full of variety.  Although perhaps short in stretches by today's standards, the long par threes and the cleverness of some of the shorter fours as well as the very cool internal green contours presents more than adequate challenge.  Certainly, the touring pros who used to come by every year didn't eat it up.  

The par threes are all long and tough, and the long par four 16th followed by the brutish 17th par three make the finish a challenge.  The 18th is a par five in the mode of Oakmont's 9th to a wonderful, wild green and some of the coolest looking cross bunkers I've seen at the crest of the hill.  

Still, the most charming holes come mearlier, such as the blind approach to the 2nd, the short, uphill 8th to a small green cradled in deep bunkers, and the seemingly simple 10th, whose green is nestled in a little glade well below the fairway.  It is a course filled with character, and I'll have to get back over there next season when I visit my parents to bring back fond memories.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2002, 11:40:07 AM »
As I understand it,  R.T. Jones did a number of changes to Round Hill, which includes the one-shotter 11th over the water, which I do not like at all. I think it is so out of character with a rest of the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2002, 12:02:12 PM »
JAndriole,

I was friendly with the Cestone family from Verona N.J.
Their cousin was a good player and member, possibly the club champ, and they used to speak highly of the course, when they would visit and play.

As members of The Knoll, I accepted their evaluation.

Have there been many changes to the course since the 60's ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Travis_Hood

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2002, 01:25:00 PM »
A friend of mine from high school just took the Assistant professional position at Louisville CC.  He's fairly certain the majority of the front nine is what's left of a 1900 Travis design.  

It is a rather exclusive club in the Louisville area, more difficult to play than Valhalla.  When the weather warms and the poa gets healthy I'll be sure to make the trip.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2002, 01:38:52 PM »
P Mucci- I'm not a member @Scranton but have played there irregularly for about 35 years and while there are 9 new holes the original layout has changed little in my mind except for a few new tees +/- a few trees and a small pond at #4-as stated the green complexes are superb and I'm aware of no significant changes in my lifetime.  The name Cestone is familiar and I believe graces their roster of champions in the men's grill.  The course is worth the trip to NE Pennsylvania and would really be special with a different type of maintenance and some minor tree removal.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2002, 07:07:15 AM »
I just noticed that if you check into the Travis link iI posted,
at the bottom of the article, there is a pretty good group
of additional articles you can tap into under the "history features index". Oldest clubs, Myopia hunt, Pinehurst, Pasatiempo etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian andrew (Guest)

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2002, 05:02:41 PM »
I also am a huge fan of Travis and a Travis Society member.
He was very unique in his architecture, in particular his greens. I recommend you read Bob Labances book (excellent book).
Another source is The Travis Socity Historian is Ed Homsey, from Rochester. I can provide an address or e-mail for him.
Go see Cape Arundel, Lookout Point, Scranton, Yahnundasis, and the course in New Jersey that eludes me right now.

Note:Garden City is a renovation and Patrick Mucci could answer your questions about that course. I know Lookout, Penn Hills and Stafford (Rochester) very well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2002, 06:58:53 PM »
SPDB1

RTJ did do some work at Round Hill Club.  As you said, the 11th hole is a typical Jones par 3 over a pond to a green that is very different from the other greens on the course.  It was just lengthened to about 180 yards (from 152).  Not much to say about it except it sticks out about as much as the 12th at Garden City Golf club.  Its not a bad hole just totally out of character.

RTJ also altered the par 5 16th hole (now 542 yards).  Here is superb par 5 on very dramatic land. The demand on the 2nd shot is strongly influenced by a huge hill on the right side (guess) some 80 yards short of the green.  You must be left of the hill to see the green and hitting on the hill leaves a testy stance.  I believe from the character of the bunkering and the green that RTJ must have lengthened the hole.  I think I could detect the old greensite shorter and to the right of the current one.  This would have left more blind shots into the green.  Its a wonderful hole but the green lacks the interior contouring and shelves found on so many other greens at Round Hill.

That's the extent of what I could detect of RTJ work there. It's not enough to alter the overall character of the course.

Brad - I'd agreen that the Travis par 3's and the 5's might be better at Round Hill then Westchester but the 4's at Westchester are just SO GOOD I think they win the day overall.

I'd recommend anyone with a chance to play Round Hill to do so.  You will have a good day of golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2002, 05:43:52 AM »
GeoffreyC -
I think RTJ also did some work to the first par 3 on the front (3?).
I think the par 3 16th and the par 4 18th are the best final two holes in Conn.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2002, 05:45:45 AM »
Excuse me, par 3 SEVENTEENTH.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2002, 06:03:15 AM »
The 17th at Round Hill GC looked to be a really fine par 3 slightly uphill with a natural green setting.  I say looked to be since we had to play to a temp green bercause they had just altered the green by raising the front 30 feet or so.  That part of the green was too severe for modern green speeds and they wanted a front pin position.  I didn't really look at the green or bunkering very carefully.  I wouldn't guess that its a totally new hole for RTJ since its somewhat uphill and the green setting is so good but I could be wrong.

Brad-  What's up with 17?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2002, 06:14:02 AM »
I did get to play a Travis course this summer - Toledo Country Club, 1898.  Although Art Hills did some remodels and new holes, still a lot of Travis visible.  Lots of small platform greens, and pretty simple bunkering, much of it now grassed over.  Some of the old fairway bunkers were barely 120 yards from the tee.  A 400 plus yard par 4 must have really been something in the old days.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2002, 06:21:27 AM »
GeoffreyC-
Let me clarify, i don't think RTJ touched the 17th.  I think he did do work to the par 3 third hole, which is down hill roughly 200+ yards, or at least thats what I have heard.

i was merely clarifying an error I made saying that 16 and 18 were, in my opinion, the best closing holes. I meant to say  17+18.

The 17th is a GREAT par 3, and very tricky. There is so much good stuff going on at that greensite.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »