Trump Aberdeen course

[Jim Nugent]

The muted enthusiam due to the Donald factor is amusing.

I agree somewhat.  The question is, does it play more like Ballybunion Cushen - which also looks spectacular in pictures, at least to me - or like Ballybunion Old? 

[Michael Goldstein]

It looks like pretty extreme land.  Leaving aside The Donald, what other great courses have dunes of this scale?   

Ballybunion in parts, but there the big dunes are balanced against more understated land.  Same with Carne.   

I found it a little claustrophobic and very tiring playing in the North West of Ireland amongst the really big dunes. That said, I can't wait to see this course and I'm sure it will be a help to golf tourism into that part of the world.

[Sean Walsh]

The 10th has a similar look to the 6th at Kingsbarns. 

[Ben Stephens]

This is links course on STEROIDS!!! - looks like the 1st is going to rival Portstewart's opening hole for the biggest dunes! Some par 3's look penal as it seems that there is no fairway to the run up towards the green.

[Kalen Braley]

I disagree about the reason behind the muted enthusiasm.  I could care less who designed it.

The main reason for me is...and granted this is only based on what I can tell in pics.

--The course looks like a ball sucking vampire.  With those elevated tees and seemingly narrow LZs, even without wind it looks tough, with a 20-30 MPH wind...fuggetaboutit!!  It'll be a 5 hour + ball searching slog.

[Sean Leary]

Kalen,

Doesn't the Shinnecock thread show the same thing? Hard to tell by pics.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Doesn't the Shinnecock thread show the same thing? Hard to tell by pics.

Sean,

In my experience over the years.  When the gunch is brown and whispy grass...I've almost always had no problem finding my ball.  Sure the occasional lost ball still happens, but its been only on the rare occasion that the brown stuff has been a ball eater.

Can't say the same for lush and green gunch.  In every single instance I've played these kind of courses...the ball was simply gone...no point in even looking.  No hope for recovery...massive scores ensued!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kalen - How can you tell they are narrow landing zones when all you have to go on is the size of the dunes of which you have no idea of the scale?... There are no pins, no people, no indication of zoom on the lens...

Also with regards to the width, remember they are 8 months away from opening... One pass with the gang mower across the marram next to the fairway and you may suddenly have much thinner rough and therefore extra width... I'm sure they will blend the transition between fairway and the thick stuff in places... Trampling will do that alone when play starts...

Unfortunately most of the hole numbers are wrong above... However 18 is correct and is as Alex says about 100 feet up....  You do not hike up to reach it though... You are already almost there at 17 green... Back tees are elevated... Many of the next sets are very accessible...

I agree with Adam with the 16th hole (par-3 numbered as 10 in photos)... It does look busy... I don't like those built dunes to the left of the green and hope they soften over time... It can also be seen from the side in the 2nd last photo of the "assorted" bunch (with 15th fairway in background)

The hole referred to as looking like Portsewart sized dunes is not the 1st... It's the 10th looking back from the green site... This is the par-5 with a split fairway...

[Chris DeNigris]

Kalen- maybe you could care less but others certainly do.

Have you ever played Ballybunion? Or any other Scottish/Irish dunesy links courses? Not sure if slog is really how you'd describe the experience.

[Michael George]

The pictures look great, but let's wait until it opens before positive or negative reviews are provided.  There is a reason that the best designers design in the field rather than through pictures.  Pictures don't tell the entire story.  If golf courses were judged by pictures, Wolf Creek in Nevada would be top 10 in the US, instead of not even in the top 100 (although I did enjoy it, it has too many bad holes to be ranked very high).

The only concern that I think the pictures do illustrate is the walkability of the golf course.  Would be strange to have a links course where you had to take a golf cart.  However, some of those tees look pretty elevated.

[Sean Leary]

Kalen,

Doesn't the Shinnecock thread show the same thing? Hard to tell by pics.

Sean,

In my experience over the years.  When the gunch is brown and whispy grass...I've almost always had no problem finding my ball.  Sure the occasional lost ball still happens, but its been only on the rare occasion that the brown stuff has been a ball eater.

Can't say the same for lush and green gunch.  In every single instance I've played these kind of courses...the ball was simply gone...no point in even looking.  No hope for recovery...massive scores ensued!

Understood, though Shinnecock doesn't look wispy to me. It may be but you can't tell from pics. My point is that both look super narrow in pics but often that is what pics do...

[Niall C]

Spectacular country.......but then it was spectacular before the golf course was built.

Very hard to tell about a course puely from pictures and as Ally says when you have no flagsticks or people in the picture to give an idea of scale its hard to comment on fairway widths. As for landing zones.....well on a links the whole fairway should be treated as a landing zone given the day to day wind changes and differing playing abilities. Thats no excuse for 60 yard wide fairways mind you 

Having said that it does look as though there is some good stuff in there with some interesting greens. Over all it does look as though they have flattened out most of the playing area and as I said in an earlier post there's not much tying of the dunes to the fairways. And as for the 18th tee, I'm struggling to think of a nother tee shot on a links course that even comes close to it in terms of elevation. Not my idea of fun or indeed a ground game shot.

Niall

[Mike Nuzzo]

The muted enthusiam due to the Donald factor is amusing.
Looks pretty fantastic to me.

I'd suggest not trying to read 1500 different minds, it is insulting.
Maybe some are trying to be polite.

The land looks fantastic, the golf ... meh

[Anthony Gray]

  The golf  meh from those pics? Immpossible. Golf would be good there even if I designed it.


  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

  The golf  meh from those pics? Immpossible. Golf would be good there even if I designed it.


  Anthony

Then why even pretend to comment on the design, if any bozo could have built a good course?


Most everyone agrees that it was a spectacular piece of ground.  The questions have been:

(a)  Is it spectacular in the wrong way, i.e. too hilly to walk and enjoy?  [Hard to tell from the pics.]

(b)  Will the artistic work be up to the quality of the site?  [Sounds as if you don't even care, Anthony.]

(c)  Was the ground so beautiful that it should have been preserved and not developed into a golf course?  [I think that's the only question where Mr. Trump's involvement comes into play.  Not many of us would object to the idea of golf in spectacular dunes, unless we didn't like the developer.  Only a few would go deeper to determine whether the design should have been refined to keep out of certain areas ... which, in this case, the Scottish government opted not to do.]

[Anthony Gray]

  The golf  meh from those pics? Immpossible. Golf would be good there even if I designed it.


  Anthony

Then why even pretend to comment on the design, if any bozo could have built a good course?


Most everyone agrees that it was a spectacular piece of ground.  The questions have been:

(a)  Is it spectacular in the wrong way, i.e. too hilly to walk and enjoy?  [Hard to tell from the pics.]

(b)  Will the artistic work be up to the quality of the site?  [Sounds as if you don't even care, Anthony.]

(c)  Was the ground so beautiful that it should have been preserved and not developed into a golf course?  [I think that's the only question where Mr. Trump's involvement comes into play.  Not many of us would object to the idea of golf in spectacular dunes, unless we didn't like the developer.  Only a few would go deeper to determine whether the design should have been refined to keep out of certain areas ... which, in this case, the Scottish government opted not to do.]

   Will the artistic work be up to the quality of the site. If its not it would still be good golf. Not great but good. My comments were complimenting the land. If the course sucks it still would be a fun round of golf walking around that place. Old Head comes to mind. I don't see anything in those photos that looks like poor design.

  Anthony

[Michael George]

Tom:

The land looks dramatic.  Did you see it before it was developed? 

How would it compare to other great natural sites like Pacific Dunes, Dismal River, Renaissance and Sebonack?  It looks like the dunes are larger than at Pacific Dunes or Sebonack and maybe are comparable to Ballybunion??

[Garland Bayley]

Brian,

I believe Donald insisted on having someone from the kingdom or thereabouts.

Caddying at St. Andrews for awhile apparently doesn't count.

[Kris Shreiner]

Brian,

Trump most likely went with Hawtree as they are a U.K. firm, with a solid track record working on top links courses. I will say that their original design portfolio is a bit light. I don't think they have one Top 100 in world ranking by ANY reputable publication. Not that that designation is a be all and end all, but I've heard no raves about any of their original designs. That said, tussling with the Donald in crafting a course isn't for everyone. Remember, Fazio was the early choice, so I have to give Donald some kudos for at least altering that course.

Mark P. of Kingsbarns and CS fame had a look at that ground, as did others. Most probably felt that the environmental issues would be difficult to surmount, and the shifting nature of the ground also provides challenges that some would rather not contend with. In the end, Donald willed his way to approval and the Scottish folks are awaiting the full presentation, with ALL of the accompanying development, before rendering a verdict, which could take years.

I hope that the project is everything it should/could be...anything less will be an expensive environmental price to pay for an ill-fated experiment.

Cheers,
Kris

[Adam Lawrence]

I heard a large part of it is that Hawtree is the official consultant to the R&A for Open sites, hence it would improve greatly the course's chances of inclusion in the Open Rota. I don't see why if it isn't either (a) an absolute first rate course or (b)  teaming with history and still a very good course. It won't be the latter and there isn't enough evidence to suggest it will turn out the former. The idea that the R&A would stick with one designer for time immemorial and never entertain the possibility of other candidates is far fetched to me. As much as tradition is greatly respected, times are moving on and things are becoming more democratic...

Hawtrees have consulted on a number of Open courses, but they aren't the 'official consultants' - Mackenzie & Ebert have at least as many of the rota courses, I think. And any suggestion that the Trump course will be an Open contender in the short term is a bit of a joke, I think

[Tony_Muldoon]

Didn't Trump first appoint the Fazio's (or at least a near relative) to design this. When he realised the opposition the course would face, Hawtree were brought in.


I've asked before but am I correct in thinking the routing is essentially that done by the former architects?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Didn't Trump first appoint the Fazio's (or at least a near relative) to design this. When he realised the opposition the course would face, Hawtree were brought in.

I've asked before but am I correct in thinking the routing is essentially that done by the former architects?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case with the routing Tony..... I recall seeing the first masterplan and although there was a similar figure eight structure, the direction and orientation of many of the holes was changed... plus the kink inside and back out that is now there at 12, 13, 14 is completely new I think...

I can't be 100% sure about that though... but if Martin was on early enough to take the project to planning (which he was) then I would be amazed if he didn't come up with his own routing...

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

The land looks dramatic.  Did you see it before it was developed? 

How would it compare to other great natural sites like Pacific Dunes, Dismal River, Renaissance and Sebonack?  It looks like the dunes are larger than at Pacific Dunes or Sebonack and maybe are comparable to Ballybunion??

Michael:

I have never set foot on the ground.  I did have a map of the site, and worked on routings for a bit.  But I wasn't able to go over the week that Mr. Trump wanted to interview me [it was a few days before Christmas], and by New Year's he had already made up his mind to hire Tommy Fazio.

David Kidd told me he interviewed for the job, and that the conditions would have included working as a co-designer with Donald Trump and having Tommy Fazio as project manager.  He wasn't interested under those terms, and I doubt I would have been, either.

So my only role in the project was recommending the site to George Peper, who was scouting around for land on behalf of Mr. Trump.  Brian Morgan had sent me photos of it a couple of years earlier, asking if I knew anyone who would want to bankroll it.  It looked like a great site, but the price was something like ten million pounds, because of the Menie Estate house, and that made it too pricey for someone who just wanted to do golf ... it had to be a larger development to make the numbers work.

[Niall C]

Tom

Thats an interesting insight into how these things come about. I well recall Fazio being wheeled out for the cameras and making some statement along the lines that the land was so good that all you needed to do was "put in the irrigation and the cartpath". That went out on the teatime national news. I nearly choked on my dinner when I heard it. I seem to recall Fazio was sidelined shortly thereafter.

Brian

If it doesn't trun out to be the "best course in the world" don't necessarily blame Hawtree. As Tom D observed, all those towering dunes bring their own drawbacks and don't necessarily provide the ideal terrain to build a course. Is it going to be like playing through one long corridor of dunes for instance ? I suggest a less spectacular dunescape might provide a better course, after all Muirfield manages to get by.

Niall

[David Hendler]

The pictures look incredible!!!