TOC- How much was built and is it open to criticism?

[Garland Bayley]

I reported Tom's post to the moderators!

















Suggested it could be quoted as part of TOC review.

[Niall C]

It has alwyas been my contention that the Golden Age of design really starts with the widening of TOC.  That action, whether intentional or not, more or less was the foundation for strategic design.  It is quite ironic that nearly all the work that went into making TOC the MODEL of design was down to functional necessity.  

Ciao

There's some wonderful posts on this thread and while I might not agree totally with all of them, I feel loathe to quibble with what is obviously heart felt views. Hopefully Sean won't mind me then highlighting and disagreeing slightly with his last para in his post above. Surely the Golden Age started AFTER the widening of the course when they perceived of the shortcomings of all that open space and then decided to do something with it, no ?


Niall

[Gary Slatter]

HI Alex,

I was the one who wrote a book on the changes to TOC.  It's called 'St Andrews, The Evolution of the Old Course' (2007). There are now very few copies available, but you can order it online at some places. It will answer pretty much all the questions you have.

My view on it is simple; what makes TOC great is that is has remained one of the greatest tests of golf, for golfers of all levels of ability, from the time the game began up to today. No other other course can make that claim. People enjoying focusing on the innate changes, and it's status now as the 'home of golf', but just look at its standing in the spectrum of the world's golf courses over the last 600 years. It's a very special place.

regards,

Scott

Scott's book is EXCELLENT! 
during my few years in St Andrews (07-09) I noticed a constant "updating" of bunkers throughout the course, usually during the winter months.
road hole bunker, right side of 13 green, etc.

[Garland Bayley]

HI Alex,

I was the one who wrote a book on the changes to TOC.  It's called 'St Andrews, The Evolution of the Old Course' (2007). There are now very few copies available, but you can order it online at some places. It will answer pretty much all the questions you have.

My view on it is simple; what makes TOC great is that is has remained one of the greatest tests of golf, for golfers of all levels of ability, from the time the game began up to today. No other other course can make that claim. People enjoying focusing on the innate changes, and it's status now as the 'home of golf', but just look at its standing in the spectrum of the world's golf courses over the last 600 years. It's a very special place.

regards,

Scott

Scott's book is EXCELLENT! 
during my few years in St Andrews (07-09) I noticed a constant "updating" of bunkers throughout the course, usually during the winter months.
road hole bunker, right side of 13 green, etc.

My understanding is that the recent updates to the road hole bunker was to return it to what it was. There is a constant updating by players that knock sand out of the bunker onto the green that needs to be counter acted.

[Melvyn Morrow]

As for the Golden Age, I am with Sean.

Niall, I feel that the Golden Age started in the 1850’s matured into a full blown age by the mid to late 1860’s. My reasoning for this being that before the return of Old Tom to St Andrews in 1864 he had a hand in many a course modification and design. We can start with Panmure 1845, Carnoustie in 1848, Prestwick 1851, Earlsferry in 1858, Westward Ho 1860, so by the time he returned the perception I believe had already been made and the shortcomingsalso  of the then Old Course was known. What had been learnt prior to his departure to Prestwick and his commissions to modify other existing courses noting that the Gutty was now the stable ball of the period (for nearly 50 years) prompted the real beginning of the modern design process - The First Golden Age.

The lessons had already been learnt, albeit in a very basic form which was developed and extended into proper golf course design. I fear your scenario is based upon the horse already bolting from the stables, but that’s just my opinion.

By the 1870’s the act of staking out a course had also developed way past the AM  walk and the PM game, course took months to build from the initial survey and design, so again I see active understanding of the need to design and to develop the process.

Yes I think Sean is on or around the date I would say was the First Golden Age of GCA.

Melvyn

[David_Elvins]

I am not a church-going type, but that doesn't mean there aren't any things in life to be taken on the basis of Faith...

Tom,

That is a great post...however...If you may indulge my opinion on this...I think that romantic nature of post perfectly illustrates that the irrational noun that best describes your feelings towards the course is not faith, but love.  (I don't think it goes beyond the realms of possibility that most on this website are crazy enough to fall in love with a golf course).  You love The Old Course because it is perfect for you, and how your brain works etc etc. 

When we truly love a woman (or man) we accept them for who they are and could never imagine changing them.  that does not mean they are beyond criticism.   A team of recruitment consultants (for example)  could critique our wives against each other, but there is little point in any of them entering into a debate with us about our respective wives. It is the same with golf courses, I believe.

We dont all love the same women, so when you write:

It just amazes me how so many people here cannot fathom a contrary opinion about their favorite course

maybe you need to accept that people fall in love with different golf courses, there love is legitimate,  and they are going to accept the course they love for what they are, and react emotionally to any criticism or change to their course?

If you want to critique a course, do it with a group of consultants, not a loving husband.  And banging on about how your love for your wife/golf course  is truer than anyone elses can make for a nice romantic ode, but it can also be quite objectionable at times.

PS Without trying to make this post anymore awkward than it already is, I think I need to tell you Tom, that umm, I think that we are in love with the same golf course.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

Oh for the love of an older woman or are you calling the Old Lady a ‘Cougar’

Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

My biggest question is...

...with all the massive changes that TOC has gone thru, which version of TOC is everyone in love with?

If we're going to go with the "not to be doubted" characteristics of golf as it originated at TOC:

Are we touting 18 hole courses or a 22 hole version?
Are we touting naturally formed bunkers or highly artificial ones in their current form?
Are we touting safety on the golf course is an after thought or that its actually important?
Are we touting natural playing surfaces or paved roads?
Are we touting natural obstacles or man made sheds?
Etc.

[David_Elvins]

David
Oh for the love of an older woman or are you calling the Old Lady a ‘Cougar’
Melvyn

Melvyn,
Some women look for an older woman to 'mother' them.  you, my friend appear to be in search of an old man to 'great grandfather' you.  Each to their own.   

[Sean_A]

Kalen

Most of that stuff I am in favour of because they are practical solutions to problems - and they aren't really terrible.  Even GC'sW is loveable and it does keep people on the straight and narrow.  The bunkers are very much of TOC in that many are truly small - even if rivetted - which I never minded because I like bunkers out of sight as it were.  The hotel replacing the sheds has a certain logic to it.  I can play devil's advocate all day, but in the end TOC rises above criticism.  It is even made more special because of its flaws.  Its not my favourite place to play, but that has as much to do with the StAndLand atmosphere of the town and stupidly high green fee as it does with unnecessary blind shots and tons of blind bunkers.  But, even on SOB such as myself must acknowledge the proper place TOC holds in golf and that is not only for its history, but equally for its design.  

Niall

I can't possibly know for certain, but I think TOC was widened to relieve pressure on the course.  Too many people were tramping the turf so more space was needed.  This same problem of over-popularity is the reason for the resort like atmosphere of the town - a victim of its own success.

Ciao  

[Tim Gavrich]

So ideally, golf course architecture is not architecture at all but discovery?  The ideal golf course (or, at least, features of a golf course) as "found art" rather than something built?  That's what I extrapolated from Tom Doak's post about TOC.

I don't know if I buy into it 100%, personally.  Yes, some of the very best golf holes were revealed more than built, but there are plenty of great holes and great courses that were very clearly build, molded, dynamited out of the earth (Yale?).  Surely we aren't supposed to discount these as inferior by simple virtue of their being constructed, are we?

[Bill_McBride]

My biggest question is...

...with all the massive changes that TOC has gone thru, which version of TOC is everyone in love with?

If we're going to go with the "not to be doubted" characteristics of golf as it originated at TOC:

Are we touting 18 hole courses or a 22 hole version?
Are we touting naturally formed bunkers or highly artificial ones in their current form?
Are we touting safety on the golf course is an after thought or that its actually important?
Are we touting natural playing surfaces or paved roads?
Are we touting natural obstacles or man made sheds?
Etc.

Sorry, but those bunkers do not appear "highly artificial."     Hell, you can't even see some of them until the caddy says, "ah pity, there you are sir," meaning, "you should have taken the line I gave you on the tee, you idjit."

I find Donald Steel bunkers can be highly artificial, as they all look alike to me, but the TOC bunkers are many and varied and natural-looking.   

[Michael Blake]

I have a hard time reconciling how any golf course could be the work of [name your higher power].  It still took an intrepid soul to decide to start at point A and end at point B 18 times over.  

Nice post Sven.