[Tom_Doak]

As long as a person is reasonable, I understand differing opinions on golf course architecture.  But, his position is not reasonable.

Michael:

That's ridiculous. 

First of all, no matter how much we might think our own opinions of golf course architecture are well-reasoned, in the end it is all a matter of opinion.

Second, if a golf course is REALLY good, it will not just tick all the boxes but it will push the envelope a bit, to the degree that it is bound to turn off some people.  A course that is really unanimously popular is a good course, but probably not a great one.

It just amazes me how so many people here cannot fathom a contrary opinion about their favorite course, whether it's Bandon Trails or Kingsley or Tobacco Road or Old Macdonald.  As an architect, I don't worry about the occasional negative reaction ... I worry if there aren't any.

[Garland Bayley]

...
My question when I was out there - were C & C offered the land where the par 3 sits?  The "glamour" of the other 3 courses could have been matched with some of that land.  I don't think BT needs it, but was wondering if anyone knew.

Not only were they not offered it, they asked for it and were denied. Mike wanted them to build on the land they got for Bandon Trails, and IMO they did a great job. It's my #2 at the resort.

[Ken Fry]

Sorry, "quirky" was the chosen word.


He says there is not a course in the top 100 that should have a blind hole or quirky bounces. Wow, Brad has a keeper on his hands. Because Pine Valley has never been called quirky, is his starting point. I would argue that 4 and 8 are blind and somewhat quirky.

Jim,

Just a couple questions about your friend:  How long has he been a Golfweek rater?  How well "traveled" is he regarding the courses and countries he has played in?

Ken

[Howard Riefs]

My question when I was out there - were C & C offered the land where the par 3 sits?  The "glamour" of the other 3 courses could have been matched with some of that land.  I don't think BT needs it, but was wondering if anyone knew.

Beyond that scenario, I remember reading somewhere that C&C were actually first approached by Keiser to design the 2nd course that ended up becoming Pac Dunes. Evidently, they passed as they were too booked with other designs, including Friar's Head.

[Mac Plumart]

SL:

I am not criticizing him for going against the tide.  As long as a person is reasonable, I understand differing opinions on golf course architecture.  But, his position is not reasonable.  For instance, I enjoy all different types of golf course architecture.  Like most here, I enjoy Doak and C&C, but I also enjoy many Nicklaus and Fazio courses.  I would defend the guy if he was arguing that Muirfield Village, Castle Pines or Great Waters were great golf courses.  Likewise, I would defend the guy if he was arguing that Wade Hampton, Gozzer Ranch, Diamond Creek or Forest Creek were great courses.  But to tell me that Bandon Trails should be bulldozed, that is just stupid.

One guy may like blondes, but if he tells me that Jennifer Love Hewitt is not good looking, I will think he is an idiot.[/b][/u]

To each his own...



It just might all come down to timing, perspective, and what it is being compared against.

[Howard Riefs]

It just might all come down to timing, perspective, and what it is being compared against.

Hands down: Top 10 use of Google Images.

[David_Elvins]

Tom Doak,

I am having trouble reconciling these two recent posts.  Am I missing a joke somewhere?

It just amazes me how so many people here cannot fathom a contrary opinion about their favorite course, whether it's Bandon Trails or Kingsley or Tobacco Road or Old Macdonald.

There is nothing wrong with The Old Course at St. Andrews.  There is only something wrong with people who think there's something wrong with it.

[Will Lozier]

Having caddied for probably 50 different golfers at Trails, I have NEVER heard such a strong statement of like or dislike.  In my opinion, based not only on my players but also considering the 20 or so rounds I've played on BT, the only SHOT - not HOLE - that is in question as far as "fairness" is the tee shot on #18.  I would say that maybe a third of the drives I've seen have ended up in the fairway.  This statistic suggests low playability.  My suggestion would be to widen the left side of the fairway by at least 10 yards (maybe more since it is blind) leaving the beautiful humps and bumps already there filling in a few of those waste bunkers rather than removing character by flattening any portion of the landing area.  Anyone bailing out left will still have a shot to the green but with a treacherous angle given the drop-off right.  Other than that ONE shot, I would argue that Trails is COMPLETELY UNIQUE!  In terms of varied environments, I would put it in the same class as Cypress.

#14 creates the typical controversy due to the tiny surface area of the green.  For me, I used to tell my players to try to keep their tee shot on the left third of the fairway to have a look at the green.  The second shot is definitely exacting...but isn't that why we play?  And, should you knock one stiff to make an easy 3 like I did the very last time I played it...there is no better feeling!  I did see a one-time Quaker Ridge club champ make a 5 the first time he played it after driving the front.  Back pin suckered him into trying to make a 2 and he proceeded to putt off the back and, well, be severely penalized.  #16 is a completely unique par-5 with perhaps the widest effective landing area off any tee on the property.  Just a great hole where you certainly have to work to make your way to the green - but what a view you are rewarded with!  Nothing even remotely unfair about it.  #6 also has a HUGE landing area left of the first fairway bunker that, properly played, should be relatively easy to hit.  

While stopping short of calling Jim's friend an "idiot"...his statement is pure ignorance - ignorance of the history of the game, ignorance of the inherent role of luck in golf, and ignorance of proper course conditioning.  It is very depressing to think that someone with so little understanding is an "expert"!  Always wanting a level lie...how utterly boring can you get.  I suppose he hates the breeze as well?

Trails is eminently playable and as good a match play course as exists.  It is a tougher walk than the other three course, but isn't golf meant to be a form of exercise?!  As for difficulty, my best scoring rounds were at Trials & BD (Old Mac was only in it's preview stage and I caddied on it but didn't get to play it).  In terms of length, width, variety...you can't beat it BT.  I really can't wait to get back there!

[David_Elvins]

Having caddied for probably 50 different golfers at Trails, I have NEVER heard such a strong statement of like or dislike.  In my opinion, based not only on my players but also considering the 20 or so rounds I've played on BT, the only SHOT - not HOLE - that is in question as far as "fairness" is the tee shot on #18.  I would say that maybe a third of the drives I've seen have ended up in the fairway.  This statistic suggests low playability.  My suggestion would be to widen the left side of the fairway by at least 10 yards (maybe more since it is blind) leaving the beautiful humps and bumps already there filling in a few of those waste bunkers...

They did a bit of work in this area last winter, didn't they?  Do they need to do a bit more work there?  What work did they do?

[Sean Leary]

SL:

I am not criticizing him for going against the tide.  As long as a person is reasonable, I understand differing opinions on golf course architecture.  But, his position is not reasonable.  For instance, I enjoy all different types of golf course architecture.  Like most here, I enjoy Doak and C&C, but I also enjoy many Nicklaus and Fazio courses.  I would defend the guy if he was arguing that Muirfield Village, Castle Pines or Great Waters were great golf courses.  Likewise, I would defend the guy if he was arguing that Wade Hampton, Gozzer Ranch, Diamond Creek or Forest Creek were great courses.  But to tell me that Bandon Trails should be bulldozed, that is just stupid.

One guy may like blondes, but if he tells me that Jennifer Love Hewitt is not good looking, I will think he is an idiot.[/b][/u]

To each his own...



It just might all come down to timing, perspective, and what it is being compared against.

LOL. I thought of this picture as well when I read that. Michael may have done better picking someone else as an example...

[Andy Troeger]

I think Trails is fantastic. I have it as my #4 overall behind Pine Valley, Cypress Point, and Pebble Beach. If it were closer, I'd play more golf.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't know about y'all, but there is nothing wrong with a gal with a bit of junk in the trunk.  

Jennifer Love Hewitt is OK by me.

As for me, my favorite kind of gal is more along the lines of Rosario Dawson.  

[Mac Plumart]

Andy...

what is your handicap?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

I am having trouble reconciling these two recent posts.  Am I missing a joke somewhere?

It just amazes me how so many people here cannot fathom a contrary opinion about their favorite course, whether it's Bandon Trails or Kingsley or Tobacco Road or Old Macdonald.

There is nothing wrong with The Old Course at St. Andrews.  There is only something wrong with people who think there's something wrong with it.

David:

I don't understand the logical fallacy above.

I said that great courses have to push the envelope, and The Old Course clearly does.  It is inevitable that people will criticize it as much or more as they criticize Bandon Trails.

If you question any modern course, I think you're entitled to at least a hearing.  Links golf in general, and The Old Course in particular, is different -- it's the mother ship.  Questioning it is questioning the essential core of golf.  I guess anyone is welcome to disagree with the essential core of golf, but if they do, why would I listen to anything they have to say about GOLF?

I know, I must sound a bit like Melvyn there.  And in some respects, I mean to.

[Tom_Doak]

My question when I was out there - were C & C offered the land where the par 3 sits?  The "glamour" of the other 3 courses could have been matched with some of that land.  I don't think BT needs it, but was wondering if anyone knew.

Beyond that scenario, I remember reading somewhere that C&C were actually first approached by Keiser to design the 2nd course that ended up becoming Pac Dunes. Evidently, they passed as they were too booked with other designs, including Friar's Head.

I don't know where the heck you read that, but I am pretty sure it's not true, unless Mike and Bill have both been lying about it for a long time.  I approached Mike about Bandon in 1995, the year after he purchased the property ... and about 3-4 months after David Kidd had approached him.  Mike always told me I was "next in line" if there was a line to be in.

The only thing I can think of that you might have it confused with is that Bill Coore told me, when he and Ben were looking at Bandon Trails, that he walked the land for Old Macdonald a couple of times and told Mike it was better than Mike thought, and maybe he should let them work on that property instead.  But, at that point Mike was convinced that a "sand belt" course in the trees was just the respite all the resort guests needed, and it took some convincing for Bill and Ben to get him to let them start and finish in the dunes.  Part of that, too, was that Mike always believed that "someday" he might convince the state to let him work down along the beachfront, and he didn't want Bill's course to block out that future possibility.

[Howard Riefs]

I don't know where the heck you read that, but I am pretty sure it's not true, unless Mike and Bill have both been lying about it for a long time.  I approached Mike about Bandon in 1995, the year after he purchased the property ... and about 3-4 months after David Kidd had approached him.  Mike always told me I was "next in line" if there was a line to be in.

Sorry, Tom. Not sure how that fiction entered my mind. Glad it's not the case and you were next.

[Michael George]

Mac:

Very well played.  That is definitely a great post and one that makes me regret using Jennifer Love Hewitt as my illustration.  I have to admit to thinking of this image when using that illustration:




However, I appreciate you keeping me on my toes.  Got to do my due diligence before posting.

[Andy Troeger]

Mac,
I don't keep an official handicap these days--I don't play competitively and only keep score if someone else is writing it down. I'd guess I'm about an 8. Most of my rounds would probably score in the 80's if I went back and added them up.  I used to play a lot more and was as low as a 2 hcp in my more competitive days.

Tom,
I'm not convinced why being the mother ship makes The Old Course beyond criticism? You can say its the place from which all golf courses evolved, etc., but normally the "first" thing causes both positive and negative reactions from those that come after. I don't have a position having not seen it in person (I intend to), but generally I would think that understanding the reactions of those who like and dislike it would be an interesting part of the evolution of the game and the process of designing courses.

[David_Elvins]

David:

I don't understand the logical fallacy above.

If you question any modern course, I think you're entitled to at least a hearing.  Links golf in general, and The Old Course in particular, is different -- it's the mother ship.  Questioning it is questioning the essential core of golf.  I guess anyone is welcome to disagree with the essential core of golf, but if they do, why would I listen to anything they have to say about GOLF?

I know, I must sound a bit like Melvyn there.  And in some respects, I mean to.

Tom,  

I think I mistakenly interpretted the quotes as a logical fallacy because I failed to realise that old Links golf courses cannot be questioned like other courses can.  I look forward to the revised edition of the Confidential Guide where every Links Course is a 'Doak 10' and described as beyond criticism.  

[Mac Plumart]

I was at that Rater Retreat which got this whole thread started and I listened pretty intently to all the raters I talked to.

I am wondering the following...

The lower your handicap the more you like Bandon Trails.  Hence, my question to Andy.  If you are a 20 handicap does Bandon Trails look more like the Jennifer Love Hewitt picture I posted and if you are a 3 handicap does it look more like Michael's photo of her? 

The more you play it, does it get better in your mind?  I talked to many Raters who said this was their 4th, 5th (whatever number) time playing it and it keeps getting better in their mind with each successive play.  I could see this...there seems to be quite a few blind spots and some holes  that require insider knowledge on how to play it.  Perhaps the more you discover its secrets the better it gets.

There are a few other things I noticed about Bandon Trails from this trip, but there are the main two takeaways.

[David_Elvins]

...the Jennifer Love Hewitt picture I posted...

Hasn't this forum spent the past ten years sayign that conditioning is over-rated?  She looks just fine in that photo,  THe architecture clearly still shines through.  Augusta doesn't look brilliant all year around. 

[Michael Whitaker]

SL:

I am not criticizing him for going against the tide.  As long as a person is reasonable, I understand differing opinions on golf course architecture.  But, his position is not reasonable.  For instance, I enjoy all different types of golf course architecture.  Like most here, I enjoy Doak and C&C, but I also enjoy many Nicklaus and Fazio courses.  I would defend the guy if he was arguing that Muirfield Village, Castle Pines or Great Waters were great golf courses.  Likewise, I would defend the guy if he was arguing that Wade Hampton, Gozzer Ranch, Diamond Creek or Forest Creek were great courses.  But to tell me that Bandon Trails should be bulldozed, that is just stupid.

One guy may like blondes, but if he tells me that Jennifer Love Hewitt is not good looking, I will think he is an idiot.[/b][/u]

To each his own...



It just might all come down to timing, perspective, and what it is being compared against.

LOL. I thought of this picture as well when I read that. Michael may have done better picking someone else as an example...

I know what Mac looks like - don't know about you Sean - but, if I were Mac I wouldn't be casting doubt about anyone's physical attributes in public... casting the first stone and all that stuff.

[Garland Bayley]

Looks like Michael's picture to this 20 handicapper.

[Sean Leary]

My hips are definitely more natural than Macs but you are probably right, Mike.

[Michael George]

Howard:

You probably got that idea from "Dream Golf", which detailed Mr. Keiser's admiration for C & C when he was building Bandon Dunes.  I believe it referenced his thoughts that, based on his love of Sand Hills, he always wanted C & C to design one of his golf courses.  However, I don't ever remember reading that he offered the job for any of the 4 courses to anyone other than the people who designed them.

Tom:

I understand your point and I would imagine that you don't write a book like Confidential Guide without having that opinion.   
 
First, I agree that this is all opinion.  In fact, I usually don't discount any positive or negative opinions on golf courses - as I have a fairly wide range of appreciation for golf courses - as I said.  I just think some opinions are so crazy as to be unreasonable and not worth discussion, especially when the opinion is supposed to be from someone that is used to determine the ratings in a national magazine.   When a person with some knowledge about the topic says that Bandon Trails should be "bulldozed", I personally think that is so crazy as to be completely discounted all together.  If his opinion was that Bandon Trails is the worst course at Bandon or not worthy of top 100 status or needed some renovations, fine - I disagree, but that is opinion.  To say it needs bulldozing is that it has no merit, which I cannot believe that even you will defend.   

To your second point that all great golf courses turn off some people, I also agree.  My favorite MacKenzie story concerned his reaction to the immediate acclaim for Cypress Point.  As MacKenzie wrote in "The Spirit of St. Andrews", after Hunter reported that "Everyone without exception thinks that Cypress Point is the best in the United States.  There is not a word of hostile criticism", MacKenzie wrote back and asked him what was wrong with the course and was actually disturbed at the lack of criticism.  I know that I am not telling you anything, but I just love that story.

I fully understand opinions contrary to my own.  I have a wife and 5 kids - I have no choice.  I just believe that there has to be some reason for the opinion so as to have merit and be worthy of consideration.  Bulldozing Bandon Trails in my humble opinion has no reason.

As always though, thanks Tom for your thoughts.  Your knowledge on the topic and willingness to share your opinions, even at my expense, are what makes this site special.

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