[Ted Cahill]

Tom D revealed an interesting story earlier- that MK was hesitant to have BT begin and end in the dunes. It's understandable that C&C wanted to create holes in those dunes, but I think time has validated MKs concerns. BTs routing does have a square peg in a round hole aspect to it- which was created by the desire to have holes on both sides of the ridge.  I don't agree at all with the 'blow it up' statement- but I would favor adding more holes in the forest that created a more walkable course. Maybe they could add the Dunes holes to BP and take 3,4,5,17 and make a short practice course- ala World Woods. I say these things as a huge BT fan, yet I can't ignore it's drawbacks. 14,16&18 are joyless chores that takeaway and, unfortunately, overshadow the rest of the course.

[John Shimp]

Jim
He must not like the old course if he doesnt like odd bounces?  Weird take from a gw rater.  Did he post a monster number?

[William_G]

Mac:

Very well played.  That is definitely a great post and one that makes me regret using Jennifer Love Hewitt as my illustration.  I have to admit to thinking of this image when using that illustration:




However, I appreciate you keeping me on my toes.  Got to do my due diligence before posting.

Looks like a photoshopped rendition, fwiw.

Love Trails and agree that the finishing 5 holes can be like windwills and drawbridges under the right /wrong circumstances. LOL

[Alex Miller]

I LOVE Trails. It is with that statement I present the following. 14 seems to be the high point in criticism, or perhaps controversy about the course. There is a necessity for a shuttle ride from 13 green to 14 tee, and I can see how that could affect many people's opinion on the course.

14 and 15 are not two of the strongest holes in my eyes, but I don't hate them either. I would not blow up the course, nor would I abandon 1,2 and 18 because they are different in scenery than the other holes. By the way, I think 17 is a world class transitionary hole and one of the best holes on the entire property.

Here's an alternative that I'm sure C&C considered. More forested holes in exchange for less risk in design. Also an epic tee shot on 16 which would make it a slight dogleg and a down and up hole. I'm not sure a change to the course would be for the better, but it's the simplest change that would make 14 and 16 less offensive to those who don't like them.

Could this eliminate the shuttle ride? Would 16 be a better hole? Would the new 13th and 14th be better? The ground over there is fairly flat and I'd imagine would look similar to 9 and 10 once cleared. Food for thought.

[Will Lozier]

I say these things as a huge BT fan, yet I can't ignore it's drawbacks. 14,16&18 are joyless chores that takeaway and, unfortunately, overshadow the rest of the course.

Ted,

To call these three holes "joyless chores" boggles my mind.  

You can swing away on #14 but have very different challenges for your second shot depending on where you end up - high left or low right.  Still, you should have nothing more than a 9-iron in your hand.  Tough shot either way.  But a chore?  And joyless?  

On #16, you can use the invisible right third of the fairway to play an little draw and it is one of the most fun shots on the entire course.  Ball disappears...then reappears shooting hard left along the wonderful contours rolling and rolling and rolling!  The second shot is certainly more exacting - just what a good par-5 should require, no?

#18, as I stated earlier in this thread doesn't play quite right for me given the high likelihood that any ball with end up off the fairway, can sometimes seem like a chore.  But, finish with a hard-working 4...pure joy!


Alex,

I can think of two other VERY long walks (not as steep!) that result in incredible golf scenery and incredible golf - from #15 to #16 at Cypress and #12 to #13 at Highland Links.  To arrive on #14 tee at BT is similarly exhilarating.  You can argue that #14 is a bad hole but one somewhat lengthy walk on an otherwise (hilly but) VERY walkable course seems hardly a hassle.  And, #15 is a fantastic golf hole with one of the best most natural greensites in property.


Cheers  

[Garland Bayley]

... 14,16&18 are joyless chores that takeaway and, unfortunately, overshadow the rest of the course.

As a proponent of two shot holes being the core of golf, I can understand why 16 would not float people's boat, but it seems a joyless person would be the type to call 14 and 18 joyless.

Double Bogey

[John Kirk]

Very true for me as well.  I play it like a dog- threw up all over myself taking four to hole-out from just right of the 18th green to lose the hole and the match to a bogey, leaving my fourball partner John Kirk shaking his head in either disbelief or disgust.  Five rounds and I still don't have a clue on how to manage the greens.  I look forward to my next round there.

Hi Lou,

I felt a need to reply to this.  I am certain that I felt no disbelief, disgust, or any negative feelings about losing.  If anything, I felt compassion, as I know how hard golf can be.   In general, we're all good at beating ourselves up over our shortcomings at the game. After all, I was out of the hole.

I like Bandon Trails very much.  I think it's pretty special, though the comment that Will Lozier sees about a third of all tee shots in play off #18 is unacceptable.

[Will Lozier]

I like Bandon Trails very much.  I think it's pretty special, though the comment that Will Lozier sees about a third of all tee shots in play off #18 is unacceptable.

John,

I don't know what is "unacceptable" about my recollection.  It might be that you agree that such a stat is architecturally "unnacceptable"?  Also, I have made par from the right fairway bunkers - I consider a drive found "in play."

I am confident that the majority of my players' drives ended up in the rough or a bunker - and I gave them a good line.  I can truly only remember hitting that fairway 3-4 times (and I am a single digit).  Having taught AP Stats before, my statement is simple math.  I never claimed that ALL drives have that same probability of missing the fairway...just what my experience was.  And, I would argue that my sample size is relatively large.

Cheers

[John Kirk]

Oops, Will...what I mean is your observation that only 1/3 of the tee balls end up in play is unacceptably low, and means this golf hole has a fatal flaw.  Sorry about the poor logic in the previous post. 

[Will Lozier]

John,

That is what I figured you meant after a few rereads!  Yes, this is the only flaw I see in BT - truly the only spot on the course that does seem to produce (I can't believe I'm about to use this word) "unfair" results!  I haven't been back in three years but I would like to see the changes that have been made and see if the hole plays a bit better.  A blind tee shot - usually into a stiff breeze - should be to a wider more receptive target, or at least to a less repellent fairway.

Cheers

[Adam Clayman]

 We are told that Brad attempts to impose his views on the group.  

Shel, I'm going to have to put the kibosh on that one.

I don't know who told you that, and I can easily see how people assume Brad imposes his will on the group, because they are called "rater retreats", but, in truth, Brad is very careful NOT to do that. He values the empirical nature of the data. As you said it will be an outlier and likely not count for much.

As for my opinion of the Trails.... It's Art. The most precious piece, on the resort.

I also disagree with the esteemed Mr. Tatum. The lake is not out of place, and is likely not in play, for all but the greediest.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
I'm not convinced why being the mother ship makes The Old Course beyond criticism? You can say its the place from which all golf courses evolved, etc., but normally the "first" thing causes both positive and negative reactions from those that come after. I don't have a position having not seen it in person (I intend to), but generally I would think that understanding the reactions of those who like and dislike it would be an interesting part of the evolution of the game and the process of designing courses.

Andy:

I can accept your right (or anyone's right) to criticize my work, or any other architect's work.  If you and David want to criticize God's work, best of luck to you.

[David_Elvins]

I can accept your right (or anyone's right) to criticize my work, or any other architect's work.  If you and David want to criticize God's work, best of luck to you.

sorry Tom, I am not a creationist.

I believe in evolution, as do many others...



Scott's book is an excellent look at the various changes to The Old Course over time, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who is Darwinian or analytical in their thinking.

Tom, I  don't believe for a moment that you really believe that golf courses should be accepted as great in a creationist blind faith sort of way without rigourous analyisis and debate. It is a curious line you are arguing.

[William_G]

I LOVE Trails. It is with that statement I present the following. 14 seems to be the high point in criticism, or perhaps controversy about the course. There is a necessity for a shuttle ride from 13 green to 14 tee, and I can see how that could affect many people's opinion on the course.

14 and 15 are not two of the strongest holes in my eyes, but I don't hate them either. I would not blow up the course, nor would I abandon 1,2 and 18 because they are different in scenery than the other holes. By the way, I think 17 is a world class transitionary hole and one of the best holes on the entire property.

Here's an alternative that I'm sure C&C considered. More forested holes in exchange for less risk in design. Also an epic tee shot on 16 which would make it a slight dogleg and a down and up hole. I'm not sure a change to the course would be for the better, but it's the simplest change that would make 14 and 16 less offensive to those who don't like them.

Could this eliminate the shuttle ride? Would 16 be a better hole? Would the new 13th and 14th be better? The ground over there is fairly flat and I'd imagine would look similar to 9 and 10 once cleared. Food for thought.

Alex.

Love your drawing and hypothetical...

I think C + C's big push was more to the west with Keiser and Mckee...even though your elimination of 14 and 15 is intriguing, I think C+C would have eliminated something else out of necessity...

It's very interesting to discuss what land was the canvas and what could have been, etc.... just like will the Preserve eventually go to the ocean or could it have been part of Trails,  thanks

[Ted Cahill]

Will- I appreciate your points.   On 14, I just dont like that you have to gingerly scale the hill down from the tee- but OK- not a big deal- if you don't blow up on the hole- inevitably- one of your partners does. So you get to awkwardly watch them steam around the green playing army golf. It seems a lot of the problems were created b/c they insisted on having the nice view tee box. Not worth it. On 16- you can hit a pretty bad slice and still have the ball deposited in the middle of the fairway- which I've done and got a chuckle out of, but also the small feeling that I'm a fraud. The second and third shots- uphill, into the wind, hanging lies- I'm surprised C&C moved forward with this hole ( a caddie told me that Ben thought they went overboard here).  By 18, or 36- it often feels like something to be finished.

16, 17 &18 at PD are no walk in the park- and often beat me up. However, I am always excited to tackle these holes and see if I can play well. 

Mike Keiser is obviously (and thankfully) restless when it comes to the resort. Here's hoping that he invests in improving BT.  I am confident a new BT would lead to a lot of return visitors to play it and prove to be a profitable venture.

[Patrick Kiser]

I have not read through all the posts, as I have not had the time.

But the subject certainly made me jump...

I found the course to be quite good from my recent play.  I've come to expect solid routings from Bill & Ben that feel like a journey across the property, have excellent finishing / tie in work, and present rather good to very good holes in general.  BT was not a disappointment on those factors.  We move from dunes to meadow to forest and finish back in the dunes...  Pretty good I thought.  I was quite surprised to learn 7 through 13 were mostly hand made and involved a lot of dirt moving.  I could see it a little from the 13th green, but less elsewhere I felt.

It's interesting to hear about the 14th because ... it reminded me a little of the 14th at Lost Farm but reversed.  The green is more receptive at LF.  I found this hole to challenge preconceived notions of going at a hole on a par 3.  So rather refreshing actually, but more than one hole like this would be a tad much.  I pared it, so maybe I'm biased...  Definitely can be a scorecard wrecker and I'm wondering if that's why the feedback to it is mixed.  Awesome match play hole I would think.

However ... I listened to our caddies and it sounded to me like BT can be quite brutal when the weather gets dicey.  Fortunately for us ... we scored on the weather front.  I could certainly see how a hole like the 16th into the wind and rain could be over the top.  But isn't that why there would be a different set of tees?  Just step up is what I would do under difficult conditions.  But also ... get a knockdown game because BT is quite awesome for the ground and run on game.  You don't have to fly it here as much.  Our caddies seemed to prefer BT because it is not played as much and the pace of play is usually better.  For what it's worth, the 16th felt like it had a little of Lincoln Park's 5th in it  .  It's one of my favorite holes on the course...  Go figure.

The walk from the 13th to the 14th is in my mind a big deal.  Why?  Because it builds anticipation.  I actually wished we had walked it, but they had an "extended cab" golf cart shuttle us up there ... and we ended up waiting there anyway, since things were backing up.  The walk appears reasonable enough from I could tell and not all that bad because it's gradual, so I'm not getting the fuss ... then again I'm used to SF golf where many a hill is encountered (think Lincoln, Olympic Lake, Cal Club, Green Hills, Presidio).

Couple of pics...

14th Tee (notice new bunkering lower right with tree clearing completed)


16th Tee


18th Bottom of fairway humps & bumps often criticized ... I guess they did not play Pacific Dunes?


Clubhouse panoramic against 18th and practice area

[William_G]

Patrick, I agree with you that the walk from 13 to 14.."the forest walk" is important in that it builds anticipation and transition...I always walk it while carrying and leave the trolley to whoever wants to do disney. Its pleasant and secluded and a break from the green to tee routing.

It is interesting that everything east of the ridge is sand capped on Trails while the holes to the west are not.

Anytime someone mentions "bulldoze" in a title it sure gets interest.

Thanks

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: I only have one thing to say: your friend is an idiot and I cannot believe that so many GCAers would actually care about his opinion.  Let's compare his credentials to those of C & C - there is no way to compare as I am certain that he has never designed or built a golf course.  So I view his statement as arrogant and ignorant.  Sure, he can say that he liked the other courses more or he can point out certain design features or holes that he didn't like and why but to say they should bulldoze and start over is the statement of a fool.

[Michael George]

May be semantics, but his friend is not an idiot.  His opinion on Bandon Trails is idiotic.  This distinction is important because it often protects me from personal attacks after I say something stupid.

Re: 14, MacKenzie said "I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that beauty means a great deal on a golf course".  No one can reasonably argue that the surroundings playing 14 are nothing short of beautiful.  While golf course architecture freaks like ourselves analyze the strategy and other features of a golf hole, the majority of amateur golfers want to play in beautiful surroundings and want to be "wowed".  14 does that and for that reason the one shot at Bandon Trails that most amateurs remember is the tee shot on that hole. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Michael: His friend plays the course and comes back to Baltimore and has time to think about his opinion of the course and comes up with an idiotic statement - that is an idiot.

[Jim Franklin]

Michael: His friend plays the course and comes back to Baltimore and has time to think about his opinion of the course and comes up with an idiotic statement - that is an idiot.

Never said he was from Baltimore.

[Jim Franklin]

Sorry, "quirky" was the chosen word.


He says there is not a course in the top 100 that should have a blind hole or quirky bounces. Wow, Brad has a keeper on his hands. Because Pine Valley has never been called quirky, is his starting point. I would argue that 4 and 8 are blind and somewhat quirky.

Jim,

Just a couple questions about your friend:  How long has he been a Golfweek rater?  How well "traveled" is he regarding the courses and countries he has played in?

Ken

He has been a rater for a little more than a year I believe. He is a low handicapper of around 3 or 4. He has been overseas to play. He has played a fair amount of golf and travels fairly frequently. As Michael said, his opinion is idiotic, but he really isn't an idiot. I just do not happen to agree with his views on Trails or Old Mac.

[SL_Solow]

Adam;  I did not suggest that Brad tries to impose group think; to the contrary, mu post suggests that the presence of the "unknown rater" on the panel belies that observation which has been advanced by several commentators on this board.  I suspect none of them have ever attended one of Brad's talks.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: My comment wasn't directed to Baltimore but simply to point out that he had time to think about what he would say when asked about BT.  BTW: What's up with the Ravens? 

[Lou_Duran]

Very true for me as well.  I play it like a dog- threw up all over myself taking four to hole-out from just right of the 18th green to lose the hole and the match to a bogey, leaving my fourball partner John Kirk shaking his head in either disbelief or disgust.  Five rounds and I still don't have a clue on how to manage the greens.  I look forward to my next round there.

Hi Lou,

I felt a need to reply to this.  I am certain that I felt no disbelief, disgust, or any negative feelings about losing.  If anything, I felt compassion, as I know how hard golf can be.   In general, we're all good at beating ourselves up over our shortcomings at the game. After all, I was out of the hole.

I like Bandon Trails very much.  I think it's pretty special, though the comment that Will Lozier sees about a third of all tee shots in play off #18 is unacceptable.

John,

I didn't mean anything bad about your disposition toward my play on BT.  I know you're a good guy as well as an experienced golfer.  And if nothing else, we can't help but to develop a proper dose of empathy and compassion from the game.  BTW, I fully understood your comment that the fairway on 18 is inadequate.  Like all good courses, BT requires a few nips and tucks over time.

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