Who is kidding Who ?

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I've never played golf with someone who didn't try to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots possible.

But, I have played golf with many people who also had other objectives in mind when they go out to play. Some guys just have getting out of their house or office in mind and might very well trade away lower scores for just the ability to play more often.

[THuckaby2]

Pat Mucci:

I've never played golf with someone who didn't try to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots possible.

Really?  Every player you've ever played with played the highest percentage shot every single time?  You have some very disciplined golf partners, Tim.  

I guess the key here is what one means by "try to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots possible."  To me that would necessarily mean playing the high percentage shot every single time one has a choice... I really don't know anyone who does that except David Moriarty, and I'd guess even he strays from time to time...  

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Very nice try, Tom IV, in Reply #27.

History suggests it won't be good enough, but that's not your problem ...

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Dan.  Yes, the list of instances Mr. Mucci has been convinced to see another viewpoint is a short one.  It's just fun to be quixotic every once in awhile...  

And well said, redanman.  I'd go so far as to say that the vast majority of my most cherished golf experiences have had nothing to do with what score I shot... sure, a good score or a good match win is satisfying, but golf provides so much more than that... as you say, it does things for me also.

To take this to an absurd extreme, as seems to be the style of this thread, would you rather shoot 95 with your 3 best friends at NGLA playing in 3 hours, or 75 with three jerks at a horrid CCFAD plahing in 6 hours?

Anyone who answers the latter, well... god love ya, keep up the score-focused quest.  Just do realize there's a whole world of people for whom the answer to that is a no-brainer.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

To take this to an absurd extreme, as seems to be the style of this thread, would you rather shoot 95 with your 3 best friends at NGLA playing in 3 hours, or 75 with three jerks at a horrid CCFAD plahing in 6 hours?

Make that 95 an 85, and you've got yourself a deal! Ha, ha.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

I would never say that people always make the best decisions when playing golf, but I do agree with Pat that nearly every person I've played golf with tries and would like to shoot the lowest score possible.

Of course, there aren't very many people who wouldn't enjoy a day at NGLA. Yet, I've also noticed that when people play a famous venue they would especially like to play well.

Tom, about fifteen years ago I had one of my most enjoyable days playing golf, 36 holes and lunch at Prestwick in Scotland. I shot right around 80 for both rounds, maybe 77-78 in the morning and 81 or 82 in the afternoon, about the level I was playing at the time. But, the highlight of the day was turned in by a friend who had never broken 100 on any golf course in his life. In the afternoon round he went into a zone and shattered his personal best with a 92.

Truthfully, I could never quite understand why this fellow liked playing so much. It just seemed that some basic level of skill was required to enjoy the game. But, obviously I was wrong. Just like Pat suggests, this guy plugged along round after round until he had his near miraculous breakthrough.

I've had some low rounds I've really enjoyed, but I doubt I was ever quite as excited as this guy.

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks, Dan.  Yes, the list of instances Mr. Mucci has been convinced to see another viewpoint is a short one.  It's just fun to be quixotic every once in awhile...  

Just hit me:

Trying to sway Patrick from his predetermined answer to one of his own questions is like trying to hit the green at Cypress Point 16 ... into a 14-club wind!

It's an incredibly stupid thing to do, but what the hell! You've got to try it at least once! Maybe more than once!

Am I getting through to you, Patrick? No?

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

Sorry, I can't agree with you.  In my experience, it's just not true to say:  "nearly every person I've played golf with tries and would like to shoot the lowest score possible."

I would agree with "likes" to shoot the lowest score possible (for the majority, although I do have plenty of friends who could give a rat's ass what they shoot, and as I say I actively TRY to take that attitude myself but too many years of competitive golf seems to preclude this for me).

I'll never agree with "tries" to shoot the lowest score possible.  If they did, they would play the high-percentage shot EVERY SINGLE TIME, and very, very few people do that.

I think we're mincing words, but I just want to make sure.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

I don't know if we're just mincing words. It sounds like you have played with many golfers with questionable course management skills. It sounds like you feel if they would just listen to your coaching they could lower their scores. You are probably right. I would hardly suggest that every golfers plays the game in a manner likely to produce the lowest score possible.

But, I agree with Pat that nearly every golfer WANTS to walk off with the best possible score. Many just don't know how to go about doing that.

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

Wait a second, I NEVER said anything about me personally coaching said golfers.  I wouldn't presume to do so... they have their fun, and score isn't necessarily part of it.  Yes, I suppose IF ASKED I could give them my thoughts on the best percentage plays to achieve the lowest score, but hell, that's up to them and I'm also never going to assume I know someone's game better than they do.

If we've now changed this to "nearly every golf wants to walk off with the best score" (which is NOT what Pat said, btw - his was more absolute), then we're down to disagreeing about percentages, and that comes down to our relative experiences.  

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

You must be an only child, hoping that having a temper tantrum everytime someone disagrees with you will cause them to change their mind.  

Either that, or perhaps the family pet used to steal your pacifiers, frustrating you, until you reached your teenage years, when you could then use your piggy bank money to go out and buy a substantial supply of them.  I'm just curious to know where you hid them when you were at school, or did you take an emergency supply with you ?  

Tom Huckaby,

Hitting a "stupid" shot, is usually in the eye of the beholder.
The golfer hitting the shot may get that feeling that they can pull it off at that particular moment.  We've all done that.
Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.  But, we're still trying to hit a "good" shot that will get the ball into the hole in as few strokes as possible.

Laying up, or playing safe falls within the concept of getting the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible.  It is that golfers decision regarding risk/reward, execution, at that moment, that determines his likelyhood of success, and the direction, length and loft of the shot he will play.

It's not about playing the highest percentage shot possible.
Remember, that may be subjective and dependent on the individual's game and mindset.

Your NGLA vs CCFAD example is a poor one, BIASED by your site selection.  Why don't you flip it and have him shoot 75 at NGLA with three jerks in 6 hours.

Tim Weiman,

On many occassions, I've played trying to cut the ball, or draw the ball, as my first priority, but always with the goal of hitting the shot at the pin, in an attempt to make eagle/birdie/par.  Other times I've taken two extra clubs per shot in an attempt to hit knock down shots, but again the goal is to hit it in the hole, or to the most tactically advantageous location.

Those who want to get out of the house or just relax, do they aim for the rough, bunkers and lakes, or do they take "dead aim" at those targets that will help produce the lowest score ?  Do they aim at greens or the surrounding hazards ?

The GAME IS THE CHALLENGE & THE CHALLENGE IS THE GAME

Redanman,

You say you whack the ball around.

What does that mean ?  Do you aim at traditional targets like fairways and greens ?  Are you trying to "whack" the ball such that you hit successful shots, great shots to difficult or intended targets.  When you try to extracate yourself from a bunker, are you trying to hole out, hit the green, or do you prefer leaving it in the bunker or blading it to the next fairway?


Dan Kelly,

When you hit a shot, don't you try to hit the best shot that you possibly can ??
And when you're preparing to hit that shot, aren't you aligned to hit it at a specific target ?  And isn't that target the optimal area that you feel will help you get from point A (the tee) to point B (the hole) in the fewest strokes possible (in the context of YOUR GAME) ?

Or are you going to tell me that you try to hit the ball on the toe, or shank, sometimes prefering to blade or top the ball ?  C'mon, get real, we try to hit the best shot we can at the time, and that shot is defined by distance, direction and trajectory.

For those who say it's for the exercise, golf has been determined to be relatively void of exercise.  If you want to walk and get exercise, do it through a neighborhood that has an abundance of unleashed, large and agressive watchdogs.
I assure you that your heart rate, sprinting and leaping skills will be elevated to new heights.  

[THuckaby2]

Pat:

This doesn't have to be so difficult.  Just give up the absolute and we shall be copacetic (love that word).  It's just plain not correct to say all golfers do ANYTHING absolutely.  People play the game for different reasons, with different motivations.

If you disagree with that, then there is no hope....  

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly,

[A]re you going to tell me that you try to hit the ball on the toe, or shank, sometimes prefering to blade or top the ball ?  C'mon, get real, we try to hit the best shot we can at the time, and that shot is defined by distance, direction and trajectory.

I'm tempted to answer, on the advice of Clorox's counsel: "Asked and answered."

But I'll answer: No, I never try to hit a bad shot. Never.

And I'll add: Sometimes (when not playing in a serious competition), I will hit a shot I KNOW to be a foolish shot, knowing full well the odds -- that it will more often increase my score than reduce it.

I'll remind you of your original question: "Does anybody play golf, or play golf with someone else who doesn't try to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible?"

And I'll remind you of my original answer -- which in NO WAY implies that I would ever purposely hit a bad shot: "The ultimate thrill of the playing of golf, for me, is not the great score, but the 'perfect' shot -- the difficult shot executed exactly as I'd pictured it in my wee brain.

So, yes: There have been times (many times!) when I have made an admittedly foolhardy attempt at a 'perfect' shot, rather than a prudent shot almost certain to give me a lower score.

Life is too short to live prudently all the time."

And I'll ask you, not expecting a fruitful answer, a rhetorical question of my own: Why won't you listen when people answer your questions with some answer other than your own answer?  

[THuckaby2]

Now the kudos go to you, Dan.   That was very well said.  Are you available to be deposed about product liability issues?  

TH

[Mike Hendren]

For what it's worth, I delight in ugly, effective golf shots.

Regards,

Mike

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I've never seen anyone try to hit a ball in a lake while playing a golf hole and yes, when experimenting with different kinds of shots, I certainly want to pull of what I was trying to do. That challenge is the fun.

Tom Huckaby:

You suggest that my comment about people trying to walk off with the lowest score possible is significantly different than what Pat had to say. Now we are mincing words!

Of course, people play the game with other things in mind. For instance, I've long been impressed with friends from Ballybunion and how they seem to appreciate the social aspect of the game more than we do. But, no matter how friendly the games are, everyone does try to do what Pat suggested: shoot the lowest score possible, though usually within a match rather than stroke play format.

Whether down at my local muni, at a world class venue like Ballybunion or at some hot new CCFAD, almost everyone wants to shoot the best they can. In my experience, the exceptions to that rule are a pretty small group.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I can think of two other situations where I might not play to get the ball in the hole, and personally, can't believe YOU haven't mentioned one of them!

The Stymie!  I could be playing under old rules, and try to stymie my opponent!

Also, in match play, I could envision trying to lag close, for a sure two putt to ensure a hole where my opponent can't win otherwise

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff Brauer, come down from the cross, you don't have to maintain that closing notice of the Stars fate in their quest for the cup.  We feel your pain... but sometimes you just can't beat the hot goalie no matter how good of players you have.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

I listen.   I listen quite intently, but that doesn't mean that I'm forced into agreeing with the answer, especially if it's from you  

If each time you address the ball, you're attempting to hit the perfect shot, then you are trying to shoot the lowest score possible.  Didn't you know that ?  Aren't you listening ?  

Jeff Brauer,

AH YES, THE STYMIE
That's when an element of active DEFENSE existed in the game, and only in match play.

Lagging, hmmmmm passive defense.... mostly match play.
One could say that the lag was to avoid taking additional strokes unnecessarily in both stroke and match play.
I'll put the lag in the "ample margin" category, but it's a good point.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly,
If each time you address the ball, you're attempting to hit the perfect shot, then you are trying to shoot the lowest score possible.  Didn't you know that ?  Aren't you listening ?  

Dear Mr. Mucci:

Asked and answered ... and answered ... and answered ... and answered ... and ...

NO, SIR, NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO! YOUR SMILEY BE DAMNED!

Get this through your head (if possible):

In the heat of competition, I will hit EVERY shot with the intent of holing out in the fewest possible strokes. (Other than in circumstances such as those outlined by Jeff Brauer, I can't imagine that anyone, other than a head case of Dalyesque proportions, would do otherwise.)

Outside competition (I hope that this still qualifies as "golf"), I will sometimes hit a shot more likely than not to increase my score -- knowing that likelihood beforehand, but also knowing that, to my warped way of looking at things, one foolhardy shot hit perfectly will be more pleasurable (and much more memorable) than any number of prudent pars.

You are free to think me a head case of Dalyesque proportions, if you must -- but please, sir, do not continue to deny that I have answered your initial queery with a plain and simple "Yes" (as opposed to the only answer you are apparently willing to accept: "No").

Quixotically yrs.,
etc., etc.

DK:dk

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Are you implying - gasp! - that sometimes you just hit shots for fun?  And not with a card and pencil mentality?

You're kicked off the golf island, Dan!

[Dan Grossman]

Alright - I'll bite.  

I HAVE played one round of golf where I was not trying to shoot the lowest score possible.  I was playing "business" golf and there was someone in the foursome who I didn't want to beat.  So - for those 4 hours, I was trying to do something a bit less than my best.  

That being said, I did get to enjoy and experience a
Top 100 golf course for free, that I probably wouldn't have
played on my own nickel.

So, sue me.

(However, every other round I do actually try to put the
ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes.)

[CHrisB]

Another example from my life--sometimes I'll go play with irons only to work on longer iron approaches.  Definitely not trying to shoot the lowest score possible.

But Pat, I'll repeat--the vast majority of non-professionals I have played with do not try to get the ball in the fewest strokes possible.  Rather, they try to get the ball in the hole in a reasonably good amount of strokes for their perceived ability.

Therefore I agree with your statement:

If each time you address the ball, you're attempting to hit the perfect shot, then you are trying to shoot the lowest score possible.

If you are not playing shots just within upper the range of your ability, then you are not trying to shoot as low as possible...you're just trying to shoot low for how you perceive your ability.  And there's nothing really wrong with that, it's just that many players will never know how low they can shoot because they are so protective of their score, so reluctant to risk a high score, that they never take enough chances to hit the jackpot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Grossman,

Are you saying that you deliberately deceived your host ?  

Did you post your score that day ?

Chris B,

It matters not whether you have 6 clubs or 14 clubs, you're still trying to shoot the lowest score possible with the implements you have at your disposal.

In terms of the endeavor, what's the difference between a reasonably good amount of strokes and the fewest strokes ?

Dan Kelly,

What do you consider to be "competition" ?

Could you cite me an example of where you intentionally hit a shot that will result in a higher score ?

And, a higher score than what ?

[Dan Grossman]

Pat -

I guess I did deliberately deceive a player in my foursome.  He wasn't really my host, since the course was public and my employer (the company) paid for the round of golf.

At the time, I did not have an established handicap.  So - I didn't have the option of posting it.