[James Boon]

I'm not including the sea, beach or ocean itself in this, I'm thinking about the various ponds that crop up on links courses.

We've recently had discussions regarding the pond on 14 and 15 at the Eden course at St Andrews and another that always gets mentioned is the pond on 17 at Royal County Down. I also came across a small pond on 10 at Littlestone recently.

I get the impression that the collective opinion is that they are bad design and out of character? I've commented along these lines myself, specifically with regards to the pond on the Eden course. However, is this always the case?

On the Eden course thread...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49924.0.html
Thomas Kelly mentions that the location of the pond was an area that naturally flooded on a regular basis.

There is a water hazard at Burnham & Berrow that starts out looking like a pond by the 7 green and then becomes more of a stream along the 8 fairway. And yet this is a low lying area with a high water table, and so water in this area is not out of place to me? Is it possible that this is the case with other such hated ponds on the links, such as the one on 17 at RCD? And are all the streams and burns we see crossing links courses, in fact streams or just wet areas? I'm thinking of the streams on 1 and 18 at Royal Cinque Ports for instance? Are these wet low lying areas that have been formalised to look like streams to blend in more with what is considered acceptable???

With so many famous streams or burns, I'm thinking The Barry and Swilken Burns for instance, the principal of water hazards on links courses isn't an alien one when its a natural feature, and virtually all links course do follow the natural / minimalist sort of principals?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts?

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

It is all to do with water tables and drainage.

Streams running across links are only natural as water needs to find its way from the high ground to the sea…

Most ponds you see are in low lying areas prone to drainage problems because of the water table…

The new Trump course is an interesting one here. They had a lot of water to contend with because those dunes are on an old glacial aquifer meaning there was water on the site high above sea level… So they had to either utilise it or remove it… So if you see water on that course, it is not because of Trump liking waterfalls (which is bound to be one of the first comments made)

[Dale Jackson]

Any discussion such as this must be carried out with the 8th (?) at Brancaster!  A grew hole that is made great by the tidal flats it is built around.

Of course the road into the course is its own hazard but that is a slightly different story.

[Jon Wiggett]

The area to the right of the 5th at Royal Birkdale is a boggy area marked with red posts if I remember correctly. Also, Falstabro in Sweeden has a lot of water though is not a typical links at that part of the course

[Anthony Gray]

  I think Cruden Bay does an excellent job in utilizing water. It comes into play on par 5s,4s and a 3.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  17 and 18 at Carnoustie are classics.

  Anthony

[James Boon]

Ally,

Interesting points about Trumps Scottish venture, as I agree with you that people are likely to comment on the water features.

I agree that streams running across links are only natural, hence they tend to be accepted. But I suspect a lot of people don't expect to find low lying areas prone to high water table / drainage problems on a links as they see the sand base as good for drainage. My guess therefore is that when they find a pond, it seems unnatural and therefore gets criticism?

Dale,

Indeed the 8th and 9th at Brancaster are a great use of water as a hazard on a links course, though in my mind being tidal marsh, its closely related to the sea and so perhaps feels a little different. Having said that, I have seen a picture of the 9th at Brancaster with the tidal marsh in full flood and though some would say it looks like something from Florida, complete with timber railway sleepers, I actually thought it looked fine.

Jon,

I've not played Birkdale, only walked it as an Open spectator. How much does the boggy area come into play? Its a short par 4 isn't it, so does it stop people cutting the corner and does it feel a natural feature on the links?

Cheers,

James

[David_Tepper]

James -

I am surprised you have not mentioned the 2 burns that cross Brora.
I think the burn on the short par-3 there (#13?) helps makes it a really good hole.

DT

[James Boon]

David,

Indeed the burns at Brora are worthy of mention.

However, I'm taking it for granted that there are plenty of burns and streams out there on links courses. I think I'm more interested in the ponds and marshy areas marked as hazards, and peoples perception of these on a links course, maybe in comparison to their perception of streams and burns, which as I say tend to be accepted.

Cheers,

James

[Niall C]

James

Another two links that have ponds are Prestwick St Nich's and Silloth although at Silloth it doesn't come into play unless you duck hook off line by at least 60 yards at the par 3 6th. In both instances the ponds were created as a result of gravel excavation. Sometimes the idea that our links are pristine natural landscapes that have never been used for anything but golf is far from the truth.

FWIW I reckon the pond on the Eden was created for a similar reason although I doubt it was gravel that was excavated.

Niall

ps. Silloth also has a second more recent pond to the outside of the dogleg of the 10th which was created soley for the greater crested newt or some such creature. The first half of the 10th is also near the water table and especially the area in front of the tee tends to be marshy at times. 

[Craig Disher]

James,
I've never felt the ponds or marshy areas on links were out of place - actually I've never much thought about them at all. They seem to be integral to the ground - very unlike the ponds created artificially on so many courses over here. The small pond at Littlestone's #10 is so unusual that stories were created about it - I was told when I first played the course that it was caused by a bomb dropped by a German plane returning to the continent during WWII. In fact, as shown by a 1940 aerial, the pond was in the center of the fairway acting as one of the many bunkers scattered around the fairway. 

The streams and drainage canals must have been significant factors in the original designs - e.g. Deal's #1 and #18, Littlestone's #2, #7, and most significantly #14. The 1940 Littlestone aerial also shows a drainage canal as deep as the one on 14 snaking in front of the #1 green then continuing in a straight line separating the 2nd and 18th fairways before connecting with the canal crossing #2. It was filled in at some point. The sight of a massive fairway stretching across 2 and 18 - probably 100-150 yards wide - is something that I think is sorely missed. The drainage in front of #1 was eventually converted to a long bunker in front of and on the right side of the green. It too was removed and replaced by the two small bunkers and a grassy ditch.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am aware of much work being done on TOC due to both the water table level and the erosion caused by the Eden. This was most notable between the 1870-80’s.  During this period the bunkers were much deeper and made shallower by 18”+/- due to pooling of water, anything from 6-18”.  Also many a battle waged to keep the Greens from being washed away into the Eden Estuary when a storm arose. There are still signs of Old Tom’s reinforcement works, but the Eden seemed to easy its pressure by the late 1890’s, but not certain what affect this had on the current site of the Eden Course. So next time you play TOC think that some of the bunkers are deep, then remember that they have been filled in to allow your ball to sit on the sand and not in a foot of water.

Melvyn

[Tom Kelly]

James just to clarify, I am not 100% certain the area has a history of flooding I am just making an educated guess knowing it flooded quite badly last year and that there has been a lot of work done to stabilise the embankment along the Eden estuary side of all of the courses at St Andrews. I can only assume this has been done to prevent any more erosion and provide better flood defences?

Even in the summer it can get fairly wet in that area of the course and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in history it was marshland or something similar.

[don_bartlett]

Devil's Paintbrush is a links course, and has a pond the sits between the 14th and 15th holes.  Everytime I play the course, it really stands out that it just doesn't fit the rest of the course.  In his featured interview on GCA, Dana Fry indicates that this irrigation pond is his only regret with this course.  Due to space limitations, he needed to build the water storage.  The interview also shows a great aerial photo of the course and you can see the pond on the right hand side of the pic.  It didn't detract one bit from the experience, as it is one of the funnest courses to play, it just didn't fit the rest of the course.
While I haven't played overseas, I have played the Gailles Course at Lakewood Shores resort, and they have a burn that runs prominently through the course and didn't look any bit out of place. 

[Aidan Bradley]

Portmarnock #6

[Aidan Bradley]

The old 7th at Waterville before Mr Fazio made his changes. Also the elevated 7th par 3 (I believe ) at the The Glashedy at Ballyliffin.

[Aidan Bradley]

Brian,

What made it bad?

Aidan.

[Jon Wiggett]

James,

I don't think it comes into play unless you are really wild or there is a strong left to right crosswind. It blends into the links scenery very well.

Jon

[Scott Weersing]

If you want to talk about ponds on links courses, you can take a look at the courses at Bandon Dunes. There are some low spots at Pacific Dunes that may get some water (front of no. 7 tee), but I can't recall any ponds. There is a water hazard on no. 13 at Bandon Dunes but I don't feel it is out of place. Most people don't even know it is there.

The course with the biggest water hazard is the irrigation pond on no. 11 at Bandon Trails. Despite the pond, the course is consider great. So even a pond can't hurt the design of the course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

The ultimate photo of water hazards on a links course – the old photo from a couple of years ago re global warming and the suggested sea level in 2050. Global warming seems to be turning into another mini Ice Age, looks like a few got their calculation wrong, ops but then we live a crazy world which seem to believe that golf is meant to be easy. 



I have to report that no animals at the R&A where hurt while producing this photo, alas the same cannot be said regards the Membership of The R&A who were undertaking tests on a new invention ‘the Witch’s Ducking Stool’



Melvyn

[Dave McCollum]

Just played The European Club two weeks ago.  The pond at 18 was a controversial feature in Ran’s early review.  It has since been converted into a burn.  Mr. Ruddy was kind to spend a quite some time with us after our golf and generously presented us with a copy of his book, Fifty Years in a Bunker.  In the book he devotes a page or two to the evolution of the pond into a burn.  As I recall, he spoke of this process as an example of how a design change can evolve, given his continuing involvement as the owner and designer of TEC.  I think he said it took 12 years to get this feature just the way he wanted.   

[Mark Chaplin]

James - 1 & the fairway on 18 at Deal have drainage issues and I'd say are not actually on links turf. I thought there had always been a burn but a really old plan I have shows both as bunkers. I'm guessing they couldn't maintain them as bunkers through flooding so converted them into water filled ditches.

[Sean_A]

One of the most controversial water areas has to be on Rye's 11th.  It is a recent creation as I think the club sold off sand (maybe something else).  There is no question the water is jarring, but ironically the hole (I think anyway), which is capeish, is quite good from the white tee.  Perhaps the water and the huge storage building in the background combine to be a step too far.  Even with the equally jarring 10th with its gorse, Rye is still a terrific course.

Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

The old 7th at Waterville was one of the worst holes of all time! Fazio did a great job at Waterville.

Brian,

It must have been pretty bad because the new three was my least favourite.

[Ian Andrew]

I always liked the burns at Western Gailles and Sligo for how they were made visible.

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