[Steve Salmen]

Terry,

I agree with you about #13 at Flossmoor.  They took out the worst hole on the course and had the opportunity to build a truly great par 3 from scratch.  They built an OK hole. The green is OK, maybe a little large for a short hole, but I do like the run off area.  They should have added a unique feature like the near doughnut greens like #6 at Yale, 17 at Piping Rock, or #10 at Chicago.

I used to joke that the old 13th was Flossmoor's Redan.

[J_ Crisham]

Flossmoor CC, here in suburban Chicago, was recently the subject of a celebrated renovation by Ray Hearn.  The course was built in 1899 and it had fallen prey to all of the pitfalls of an older club: shrunken green pads, horizontal tree growth infringing on fairway lines and lines of flight, bunker loss and bunker alterations, etc.  But one of the primary reasons that the course really needed some renovation is that it had one hole that was a bit of a sore spot.  Some members ardently defended the hole, but others openly derided it.  Flossmoor began to be defined by the hole, since people who played it only occasionally usually remembered that hole primarily.

Here's the hole:  A 120 yard par-three from an elevated tee to a lower green fronted by a big bunker.  The line of flight to the hole was amazingly narrow, between a chute of 200 year-old oak trees.  The green was banked right to left at an angle of something like 8%.  It was a "lucky birdie", easy bogey hole if ever I saw one.  In many ways, it became the "signature" hole of the golf course to casual observers, which was most unfortunate, because the rest of the holes were quite good, and some were simply brilliant.

So that hole got eliminated and replaced by another short hole, about the same distance, in a bit of a meadow, which was created by the felling of at least 100 old oaks.  It's sort of underwhelming, in many respects, and it is still arguably the "worst" or the most controversial or perhaps the most boring hole on the course.

Terry,  I played FCC on Sunday and felt that the 13th was a necessary breather after getting punched in the nose at 11 and 12-very tough holes and then the stretch of 15-17. I forgot how tough the back nine at Flossmoor can be.As an aside the course was in great shape-pretty amazing this late in the season-Bob Lively just knows how to do it right,     Jack

[David_Elvins]

Does this mean a routing should:

Completely avoid an area of the property that features a unique, out-of-character area?

If not, should the architect completely eliminate all those aspects in order to meet their view of the character of the property?

Perhaps it is the ability of the architect to sell the concept that is out-of-character that is truly being critiqued, and not the character of the hole itself.

I suppose by out of character I was referring to holes that have been rebuilt and do not fit in stylistically (eg. 12 at Garden City) or where the hole is somewhat compromised.  eg. I can think of a few very good courses where 17 holes are spacious and one hole is jammed into a narrow gap. 

Both these instances detract from the course, IMO. 

Otherwise, I agree with your post, there is a real talent in making a cohesive course out of a variety of landforms.  Whilst I have played niether, Cypress Point and Friars Head are two courses where this is commented on. 

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom,

You will be pleased to know that someone (I think an Australian Golf Digest Rater) told me this week that Lost Farm was disappointing because the 11th (may be the best hole on the course and certainly the most underrated) and 12th holes were so poor - 'easily the worst holes on the course'.

Of course they are a good match for the worst hole on Barnbougle - the 2nd.

[Sean_A]

Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it.  

Ciao

Sean,

I would have to agree here 100%.  

Shots over buildings
Criss-Crossing fairways/holes
OB on the right side the entire way
People intentionally playing to someone else's fairway creating safety hazards.
Asphalt roads in play

There is absolutely nothing wrong with The Old Course at St. Andrews.  There is only something wrong with people who think there's something wrong with it.

Tom

I can readily accept I have something(s) wrong with me, but can you tell me that TOC doesn't have many issues which any architect/owner would go to great lengths to avoid?

Ciao

[Mark Saltzman]

An old thread that fits this discussion: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41029.0.html

[PThomas]

Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it. 

Ciao

Sean,

I would have to agree here 100%.   

Shots over buildings
Criss-Crossing fairways/holes
OB on the right side the entire way
People intentionally playing to someone else's fairway creating safety hazards.
Asphalt roads in play

such blasphemy!

[Kalen Braley]

Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it. 

Ciao

Sean,

I would have to agree here 100%.   

Shots over buildings
Criss-Crossing fairways/holes
OB on the right side the entire way
People intentionally playing to someone else's fairway creating safety hazards.
Asphalt roads in play

such blasphemy!

I don't see courses being designed like this today...what gives?  If its so charming and cool, why would anyone who tried it today get run out of the business?

I must admit, I have a really hard time understanding the double standard of what was good then, isn't good now...

[George Pazin]

It's not a double standard, it's a different standard.

TOC is kinda old. Most of it likely predates those things.

It works for most. Accept that. Just because most miss the point doesn't mean it's not there.

[Sean_A]

It's not a double standard, it's a different standard.

TOC is kinda old. Most of it likely predates those things.

It works for most. Accept that. Just because most miss the point doesn't mean it's not there.

George

I get the points about TOC, but I am willing to overlook its MANY shortcomings that when listed probably add up to more issues than any three other top world courses combined.  Why?  Because TOC is a one off. 

Ciao 

Ciao

[George Pazin]

I would hope you would overlook those things just because it is fun to play.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it. 

Ciao

Let's see Bobby Jones was trying to recreate a TOC in Augusta, and Jack Nicklaus did recreate one in Florida.
But they're just nobodies.

[Kevin Pallier]

To what extent does the worst hole on the course impact a golf course's greatness?

Isn't this all about opinions ? What one finds "great" another may find "poor" - doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong.

As far as I am concerned - so long as the deficiences of a lesser hole don't detract from the overall flow of the course I wouldn't be too critical of it's impact.

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Perhaps the subject for another thread entirely, but what exactly are the MANY shorthcomings of TOC?

[Adam Clayman]

  Why?  Because TOC is a one off. 

Sean, I would presume to know, but, my understanding is that it's not as much as a one off, as it is the core principles that make it so.

[Peter Pallotta]

You gents seem to be forgetting my recent discovery, i.e. in one way or another, TOC is the answer to every question ever posed on this board. Mark's question and the Tom-Sean debate raises yet again the fundamental issue of whether tis better to judge a course by the quality of individual holes or, in taking a bird's eye view instead, measure it as a whole and as all of one piece.  (Btw, the answer to that question/issue is....The Old Course. Why? Because MacKenzie and Behr and Bobby Jones said so.)

Peter

[BCrosby]

Peter -

I thought the all purpose answer was the 10th at Riviera.

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha! Yes, for individual holes, the answer is always the 10th at Riviera.  For golf courses and the 'philosophy' of golf architecture, it's TOC. Thank you for the added nuance, Bob 

Peter

[Ed Brzezowski]

I am very new to  this site but how can anyone run down TOC??  Doesn't the history of the game negate two short holes??  Drove by Independence Hall here in Philly on thursday. You know it is small and not a great piece of architecture. But i got the same goosebumps at TOC i get at where America started. Yes 9 and 10 are a bit bland, but i saw my buddy yack up a 9 on 10 because he thought getting out of the bunkers would be easy. As Tom said he went for the birdie and killed a good round with poor course management.

[Niall C]

3.  The ninth hole on the Old Course at St. Andrews is about as bland a hole as you can find in the world, although by virtue of its blandness players put pressure on themselves to make birdie there, and it isn't always as easy as it looks.  And there are actually some people who don't think The Old Course is one of the great courses in the world, and will point to this hole as one reason why.  Those people are called "morons".

You can put me in the "moron" camp although I wouldn't necessarily say that the 9th is the main reason for me not rating TOC as high as others do. Its a fairly modest and relatively uninteresting hole but sometimes thats what a course needs at some point in the round. Which brings back to the question. Are we talking about the worst hole in the course looking at each of the holes in isolation or are we considering each hole in the context of the rest of the course ? If its the former then the worst hole may still offer something to the course as a hole, for instance as a breather for more exacting holes before and after. What makes great courses is the whole and not the individual parts IMHO.

As an example of the later, there is the Eden course. In a recent thread many, including me, were sticking the boot into the Donald Steel holes. Clearly awful holes in the context of the rest of the course. However if you looked at each of the holes in isolation, it could be argued that those holes were no worse than some of the others. I personally wouldn't be arguing that one too vigorously, but nonetheless I think you could make a decent argument out of it.

Niall

[Scott Szabo]

Two of our more beloved courses on this site, Sand Hills and Ballyneal both have their 9th holes typically singled out as the worst on each courseam. Then I see Tom's quote about #9 at TOC.  Is there something unique about the 9th hole of a round that leads to this?  Maybe more of a hole forced into an area to get one back to a central point maybe?  Although that's not the case with TOC. 

[James Bennett]

Ha! Yes, for individual holes, the answer is always the 10th at Riviera.  For golf courses and the 'philosophy' of golf architecture, it's TOC. Thank you for the added nuance, Bob 

Peter

I prefer the answer to the meaning of life - 42!

Mike Clayton.

How could someone dish the 11th at Lost Farm?  I suspect that person likes small targets with bunkering left and right. I also suspect that the person plays with a rangefinder.  To each their own.

ps, Lost Farm's least best hole is 18a - it is easily avoided.

James B

[David_Elvins]

How could someone dish the 11th at Lost Farm? 

It does have a funny looking green. 

And I am not sure it is much fun downwind. (Its obviously not a bad hole but I dont have a problem with oanyone trying to argue it is the worst on the course).

[James Bennett]

How could someone dish the 11th at Lost Farm? 

And I am not sure it is much fun downwind.

Dave

please explain.  It seems there is plenty of room to land a ball short of the green on 11 if the wind was really strong.

James b

[Tom_Doak]

You can put me in the "moron" camp

Niall

Okay, Niall.  Got you down.  If you can figure out how, you can just put that quote as your avatar.

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