Who would you hire?

[jim_lewis]

Most of us seem to have favorite architects as well as some we are often critical of. It is easy to pick favorites when someone else’s money or reputation is on the line. I wonder which architects we would hire if we had to make the call and live with the consequences.I happen to believe that different circumstances would lead me to choose different architects. Below are a variety of circumstances that I offer for you consideration. Which living architect would you choose in each case, assuming that they would accept the job? I will provide my choices up front.

1. You are a billionaire who loves golf and wants to build a      course that has the potential to be viewed by critics as one of the best courses built since WWII. The club will be
private and your target membership will be members of some of the classic clubs in the U.S. The club does not need to be profitable, but break-even would be nice. There will be no houses on the course, and you do not anticipate hosting professional tournaments.      
My choice:  Crenshaw and Coore


2. You are the leader of a group of investors who want to build a course in conjunction  with an upscale real estate development. The club will be private and the homes will
be among the more expensive in the area. You and your fellow investors are gambling much of your personal wealth on the success of this project and you are counting on the course to attract prospective members and homeowners.
My choice: Tom Fazio

3. Same investment group as #2 except the course will be an upscale resort or upscale daily fee. Must be profitable within 3 years. My Choice: Jack Nicklaus

4. Your investment group is building a low-end daily fee or modest real estate development course.
My choice: Eastern U.S—Davis Love, Western—Jim Engh

5. You are president of a classic “golden age” course and you are charged with the responsibility to select an architect to restore the course to its original architectural intent.
My Choice: Ron Forse

6.  Money is no object and you want to build a course than can compete to host a men’s U.S. Open within the next 25 years.  My Choice: Pete Dye


I could go on, but I guess I have made my point that I would choose different Architects for different situations. Who wouldn’t? Care to offer you choices or take a shot at mine?

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Lewis:

Interesting thread.  Generally, I agree with you that the choice of architects must fit with the overall project constraints, requirements, theme, goals, etc.

But, I wouldn't only think of the project in financial terms, if that is what you meant to suggest.  If there was a specific property in mind, I would probably try to visual who would best fit with the features I observed on site.  

[jim_lewis]

Tim:

I really did not mean to suggest that financial concerns are the only factors to consider. There actually are several other factors that I would take into account, the site, in particular.  I just did not want to make the initial post any longer.

One important factor that I would consider would be the architect's willingness to accept input from me. Some may question why I did not select Tom Doak for any of my projects. I may be unfair to Tom, but my impression is that he would demand a free hand, and I must have an architect who is willing to consider and respect my suggestions.

[Paul Richards]

Jim:

Need to restore a classic Donald Ross course?

Ron Prichard

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Lewis,

Sorry if I didn't properly acknowledge your likely consideration of multiple factors when selecting an architect.

The financial side is certainly one that needs to be carefully considered and I like how you've laid out a variety of potential scenarios.  I just couldn't get away from trying to visualize a piece of property.

One more thing: generally I like to stay away from personal comments, but in this case I must break my own rule.  My own interaction with Tom Doak has been far more positive than the picture you paint.  Suggesting Tom would not consider input is unfair, in my opinion.

[jim_lewis]

Paul:

No argument on Ron Pritchard. I see it as a toss-up between Ron and Ron. I just happen to know Ron Forse a little better, and I have seen more of his work on courses by Ross, Flynn,
and Tillie.

[Craig_Rokke]

Good question-

1. C&C or Doak. A name with some national recognition is important here, but a top-flight, classically-inspired course will be the drawing card and either firm would do a great job.

2.Fazio sells home lots, and will deliver a course that people can bank on. Also consider Weiskopf if in Southwest.

3. Dye or perhaps Nicklaus would be good pick in order to help assure a return on investment.

4. In the west, I like the pick of Engh. The midwest, maybe
DeVries or Axland/Procter. And how about Prichard or Kay in the east? Jim, I haven't seen Love's work. Can you comment further?

5. If it's a Ross course, Prichard or Forse. If it's by someone else, how about Hanse or Doak. Then again, Hanse reportedly did an excellent job w/ Ross's Plainfield.

6. Dye.

[A_Clay_Man]

1. Naccarato/R.J.Daley
2, Weiskopf
3. Doak
4. jim fazio
5. either ron
6. C&C

[RJ_Daley]

Ok Jim, I will only answer the first one of your questions, cause the other what-ifs make my head hurt.  Adam is absolutely right!   If I were a billionaire, I'd hire Tommy and start building them until we got one right!    But our target membership would be all the other guys that love their GCA and will never be "members of some of the classic clubs in the U.S.".  

[jim_lewis]

Maybe I should not have named architects, because doing so probably distracted the reader away from the main point I am trying to make, which is: No one architect is the ideal match for all jobs. Different circumstances would likely cause each of us to choose different architects, especially if we have to live with the consequences. Given the right circumstances we might even choose an architect who is not our favorite.  I invite reaction to that assertion, and reaction to my choice of architects, if you wish.

Tim:
I will yield to your judgement regarding Tom Doak. I certainly do not wish to be unfair and I really don't know the man. My comment regarding the liklihoood that he would not be receptive to input from the client was formed entirely based on my interpretation of comments he has made on GCA. I get the impression, perhaps false, that he would rather reject a project if he isn't given a free hand.

Craig:
My choice of Davis Love is based on a hunch and a some evidence. I have played only one of his courses, Anderson Creek, and I was impressed with his style. Anderson Creek is a new private residential development course located about 45 minutes form Pinehurst. While at UNC Davis played a lot of golf in Pinehurst and that influence shows at Anderson Creek. The property is similar to  that found in the NC Sandhills and the design has a definite "Pinehurst" feel. There are absolutley no gimmicks, extensive use of forward bunkers, restrained use of water, some raised greens with real personality, excellent chipping areas, and four really fun risk/reward par fives.

Normally I don't get very excited about touring pros posing as architects, but I do respect those who actually make a serious effort to learn and will spent lots of personal time on the project. I stand to be corrected, but I think Davis meets those requirements, so I would encourage him to stick with it.

Notice that I chose him for projects where the financial risk is not so high and where a big-time, established architect is not necessary and would be too expensive.

RJ: Good luck with becoming a billionaire and launching your partnership with Tommy.


I did not intend that my list of scenarios be the only ones that could be considered. I  could have made up another twenty or so, but the post woud be too lengthy.  Feel free to create your own, as RJ did.

[David Wigler]

Jim,

Neat thread.  It really got me thinking.  The only place where I would differ substantially from you is on the first one.  If I had $1B, than money truly would not be an object.  I would throw the project at one of the budding superstars and see if they could not create an Opus.  I would love to see what Todd Eckenrode, Mike Devries, or Steve Smyers (Among architects I have seen) could do with a huge budget, no homes, and no constraints.  Look at the inspired work we got from Dye, Fazio, C&C, Doak, etc. when they were given their first real blank checks and great properties.

[jim_lewis]

David:

I understand your point, but you may a little more of a gambler than I.  After all, I got to be a billionaire by betting on sure things. This course is going to be my baby and will hopefully establish my legacy as playing a key role in returning modern architecture to its classic roots. C&C are the closest thing I know to a sure bet.

I will gladly give the guys you named a shot a one of my other courses.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

In regards to situation #1, wouldn't at least some of us think about choosing ourselves? I know if I was in that situation, I would want to carry the ball on the routing. This may be a naive statement, but I reckon quite a few of us could take a site, and get a great routing out of it.

Wilson, Neville, etc, didn't do so bad.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

and if I was screwing it all up, than I would call in a William Flynn type for "consultation." I would still have my name listed as the architect.

[David Wigler]

Gary,

If you get to Michigan, go play Wyndgate.  Then you will understand why I did not choose myself.  They had zillions but the owner insisted on doing the design and it is a great opportunity lost.  It takes about ten minutes of walking a site with a real architect to know that I am way out of my league.  I would probably pester them with questions and input (Like a Herb Kohler) but ultimately I would not do a project unless I gave the people I hired and who know it far better than me, final authority.  One last point on owner input.  Have you played Flint Hills National?  Thru 17 holes, I was thinking it was my third favorite Fazio (Behind only Shadow Creek and Victoria).  Then I got to the 18th hole.  What an abortion!!!  It has a tree screwing up any strategy on an otherwise solid par five.  I asked one of the club employees why they would wreck the final hole with such an atrocity.  I was told that the owner flat out refused to let Fazio move it.  

Hire the best, offer suggestions and get out of their way.

[mystery guest]

1-Hanse, Bahto

2-Fazio

3-Jack or Weiskopf

4-W-Engh or Rick Phelps
   E-Kelly Blake Moran

5-Hanse, Kittleman, Wagner, Hines

6-Rees

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Lewis:

Thanks.  Personal issues are tough to deal with publicly, but I would say that Tom Doak gets unfairly stereotyped.

[Ed_Baker]

1. Doak
2. Dye
3. Tom Fazio
4. East, M. Young  West, Jeff Brauer
5. Ross course Prichard, others Hanse
6. C&C

[George Pazin]

I would feel more than comfortable interviewing Tom Doak, C&C, Gil Hanse and Mike DeVries for all of your categories - in fact, I'd probably feel comfortable with any of them in any of your categories.

There's more to life than money. I'd rather go down with someone I respect & admire than succeed fabulously after selling my soul. But then again, I did read Faust back in the day.

PS. The only archie I've actually met is Gil Hanse - I haven't met anyone else & I'm only trying to make a different point than Jim Lewis's, I'm not trying to say I don't like Fazio, Nicklaus, Dye, et al.

[RJ_Daley]

Jim, as you undoubtedly know, your #1 scenario has already been done by Coore and Crenshaw at Sand Hills.  The only difference is that Youngscap isn't quite a billionaire.  He just acts like it

If I even had an extra one million (1/1000 of a billion) I would have Axeland and Proctor or Proctor and Whitmann or all of them start this week on land I already have picked out. No kidding!  But they would have to put up with Tommy and my looking over their shoulders.  Who knows if there are any saints in heaven that could endure that!  

But that same old lament of mine is getting old...

[A_Clay_Man]

I had played Wilshire many times prior to renovation. As I recall the 3rd hole changes were mostly to the baranka that surrounds the green on 3 sides. The addition of rocks isn't what I would call a renovation and my personal feeling was less than ecstatic. Not even after playing the shot o the day from said rocks (literally) to 5 feet. But it would be impossible to ruin this hole even if I had renovated it.

On another note: Is anyone else having trouble downloading the full page after the Brain, Rich Goodale has altered his picture.
Any and all attempts to bring back the Kabul pic would be appreciated. Priceless.

[A_Clay_Man]

Oh yeah I almost forgot.
Don't billionaires hire people to post for them?  

[John Foley]

1. C&C or Doak seems like the logical choice to anyone. Anyone else on the list would be somewhat risky?? If so how about another flyer name like Mr. Kidd @ bandon?

2. Fazio. has he cornered the market on this or what?

3. Dye/Nicklaus/Norman.

4. East - Smeyers or Ron Kern
   West - Engh or Robin Nelson

5. Brian Silva - I love his work.

6. Mike Devries or Gil Hanse w/ a great site, unlimited budget and the chance!!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

DMoriarity,
I excitement was on Wilshire the golf course, not so much the work Davis Love has done there. In fact, I would have to describe the work on #11 as not being in tune with the rest of the golf course.

There are a lot of glaring errors going on at Wilshire--mostly all tree planting. Another thing is that there seems to be a wide idea that when the course floods that it is nothing more then a given for the site. I truely do believe that ultimately there might be a liability on the City Of Los Angeles part for that. (Maybe better not go there for now!)

Love's work on #15 is good, The bunkers protecting the right hand side, just off the fairway. It all ties-in pretty good, and then you have that masterful boomerrang green that just works perfect for the hole.

What would be cool at Wilshire is to restore some of the great sandy wash areas that play as bunkers on #3, 4, 9, 16, & 18.
I used to look at pictures at The Ralph Miller Library of Wilshire, not knowing the cool routing of some of those holes, and they show people playing out of those areas and it is totally in tune with how the game SHOULD be!
(OK, my opinion!)

[Craig_Rokke]

Funny how being an owner or wanting to cater to a particular market twists your arm into making a business decision.
Also, I like John F's choice and logic for #6 with Gil H. and Devries.