[jeffwarne]

Thanks to a very generous GCA'er I was able to play Fishers Island two or three years ago, it may have been longer.  I do know that of over six hundred courses played in a dissolute life of putting golf before the lust for lucre, Fishers Island is in my top Five in the World.

There is not one architectural feature that stands out but the whole ambience of the place reeks of golf....as it should be played...for the pure fun of it all.

Bob

Bob, While i would agree the setting of Fisher's is phenomenal, I would be hard pressed to say that the architectural features of the Alps and Biaritz hole and the skyline green on #10 are not sensational, as well as the hogback fairway on #6 (to name just a few)
While I value fun and setting quite highly (certainly more than most here) I'd say Fishers has some incredible architectural features

[Mike Sweeney]

Why isn't it world number 1? Not a rhetorical question...I will chime in later...

Update from Top 100 Guru's second trip:

http://top100golf.blogspot.com/2011/08/mulligan-at-fishers-island.html

I have now completed playing all of Seth Raynor's courses ranked in the top 100 and feel that he got better as he went along. I think his best, in order, are Yeamans Hall (1925), followed by Camargo (1921), then Shoreacres (1919) and Fishers Island (1917).

I have not played Camargo, Shoracres, or Yeamans so I can't comment. I have not played enough overseas but if you are talking #1 in the USA, I think you have to have 18 very good to great holes to all world holes. In my mind that limits the conversation to Pine Valley, National and Sand Hills for me. Fishers has at least one or two "good or pretty good" holes out there, and it simply should not be considered for #1. imo. Top 5 sure, Top 10 absolutely.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mike,

Why is Shinnecock Hills not in the no. 1 discussion for you?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

Why is Shinnecock Hills not in the no. 1 discussion for you?

Because it is 50 yards from National!

Seriously, I think the front has some above average holes but not very good holes that keep it from #1 conversation. Holes 9-18 is probably the best 10 holes that I have ever seen.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mike,

Why is Shinnecock Hills not in the no. 1 discussion for you?

Because it is 50 yards from National!

Seriously, I think the front has some above average holes but not very good holes that keep it from #1 conversation. Holes 9-18 is probably the best 10 holes that I have ever seen.

Mike,

Thanks. I haven't played National or PV so can't compare but Shinny is probably the best I've played. I found 4 and 6 to be very ordinary (6 in particular). Back 9 is unbelievable though I thought 12 was nothing special -- could have been partly due to the countervailing wind we had, though.

Does Sand Hills not have some ordinary holes in your mind? It does in mine. 6, 9 are nothing special, and 10 falls short of very good to me.

[Mike Sweeney]

Back 9 is unbelievable though I thought 12 was nothing special -- could have been partly due to the countervailing wind we had, though.

The rolling terrain of #12 is pretty special to me. I probably drove that short cut to my old house a thousand times just to see those holes.



Does Sand Hills not have some ordinary holes in your mind? It does in mine. 6, 9 are nothing special, and 10 falls short of very good to me.

I love the semi-blindness of #6 at SH. Playing there is just a completely unique experience to me, so I may be blind to "ordinary".



#9 from Ran's review which I agree with - "is one of the more uniqueholes on the courseand handsomely adds to the overall variety of the challenge. Principally, the large fairway enjoys the most humps and bumps on a human scale of any on the course. The chance of drawing a level stance for one’s approach to the green is slim and the potato chip green shrugs balls off onall sides. The need to control the flight of the ball off an uneven stance cuts to heart of the game’s origins."



Assuming it is a hot day and you stop for a gatorade, this really is one of my favorite tee shots at SH:


because from the tee it is not obvious (from memory) that left is a superior approach:

[mike_malone]

 Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

[Tim Martin]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

Mike- With CBM/Raynor you get templates so that question would probably be best answered by those that don`t like their style. This thread is loaded with posts that gush about the site/routing/individual holes so it might be a tough case to make. If you gave the site to one of the other noted ODG`s I`m sure that that they would also produce a fine golf course. Better? Who knows.

[Bill Brightly]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

Wow, is that ever a leading question... I haven't heard that kind of a back hand slap against Raynor since Wayne Morrison was posting... I think there are Raynor courses where you can say a template feature was "forced upon the land" but not at Fishers...The double plateau may be the most natural looking one I have ever seen...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

No.

[David Kelly]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

What makes you say they were forced?  As to their quality only the Long lacked a little interest and I believe that is because they never put in the intended bunkers.  Someone correct me if that is wrong.

[Jed Peters]

Chip:

I know that follow through! Well balanced!

Anyhow, miss you buddy. Hope you're up to good things!

Jed

[Bill Brightly]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

What makes you say they were forced?  As to their quality only the Long lacked a little interest and I believe that is because they never put in the intended bunkers.  Someone correct me if that is wrong.

David, it is a Flynn/Philly thing...


Chip, GREAT photos. As much as I enjoyed the photos of the course, the first one of the boats was superb. It looks like a professionally done post card!

[Mike Sweeney]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

Perhaps, but would it be as much fun?

[Tom_Doak]

Could the course be even better if templates were not forced on it?

No.

Tom Fazio told me the exact opposite answer back in 1986 ... but of course he would never have been able to visualize all the other possibilities and rule them out, the way you can Jim.

[Keith OHalloran]

Brian,
I assume that means you do not like the hole? What about it set you off?
I liked the hole, thought the green was great,and in a weird way liked that the green ran left toward the next several holes. 

[Keith OHalloran]

I didnt build it, so no offense take. I haven't been to the original, so I guess I am more ok with "template deviation" than others are.

[Keith OHalloran]

Brian,
Perhaps you are right, but the reason that I personally like these courses is to go see how each one interpreted the overall concept. If every hole had every single  feature religiously, you would have little room for personalization. This is why most movies are "based on a true story" and not dogmatic in simply retelling exact facts.
As aside, the punchbowl hole combines two templates,what is your feeling on that in regard to faithful replication?

[jeffwarne]

I agree that one can be loose with the principles to a certain extent. But not massively. I think most of the elements that made the originals so beguiling need to be present - otherwise it's not really a template. I think any course in which a template is forced on to the land is not the best course it can be theoretically. But having said that, if they are good templates and pose tried and tested questions, it would take something special to trump them. When those holes have templates forced on them AND those template holes don't present similar dilemmas that the original holes would have done, then what's the point? Best to work with what the land gives you on that occasion and fit the templates at points in the course where it is genuinely appropriate. That's just my initial view - I have played very few Seth Raynor courses (2) and haven't seen all of the originals of these template holes - so I am far from an expert.

Brian,
If #2 at Fishers had been designed by say Donald Ross,Travis, or Leeds, and was not called Redan, what would you think of the hole?
Do you think the hole is forced, or just the name?

[David Kelly]

How many redan holes closely resemble #15 at North Berwick? I can't think of any redan that I've played that is blind like the original is at NB.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom Fazio told me the exact opposite answer back in 1986 ... but of course he would never have been able to visualize all the other possibilities and rule them out, the way you can Jim.

If you and Tom Fazio want to hypothesize about what else could have been there than feel free, although in the past, and on this site, you have taken the same position as I did when I answered "No" to Mayday's question, which is to say I don't think anyone could have done a 'better job' at Fishers Island or at Pebble Beach or at Cypress Point (could Raynor have done a 'better job' there than MacKenzie?   ) or at Winged Foot or at Shinnecock Hills, or even at  Pacific Dunes or Shadow Creek, than the architects who built them. They are all master pieces in their own right.

[mike_malone]

 I will freely admit to a Flynn bias. I just think there is too much "squaring off" of natural features that seem to want to flow .

[George Pazin]

...but if you are talking #1 in the USA, I think you have to have 18 very good to great holes to all world holes. In my mind that limits the conversation to Pine Valley, National and Sand Hills for me.

I'd be curious to learn what holes at Merion and Oakmont don't fit the bill to be included.

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen...

[Chip Gaskins]

Kevin

Here are the remaining holes with exception of #15 Long....must have been a clunker or that I lost $10 worth of Pro V1s somehow :-)

Hole #1


Hole #2 Redan
Certainly not the best Redan I have played but get the job done...


Hole #3 Tee Shot


Hole #3
Another great skyline green!


Hole #10 Tee Shot


Hole #10 Fairway


Hole #12 Approach


Hole #14 Approach


Hole #14 Green


Hole #17 Approach


Hole #18 Approach




Its certainly the best MacRaynor I have played:
Lookout Mt
Shoreacres
Chicago Golf Club
Blue Mound
Creek Club
Piping Rock
National Golf Links
Yale
St Louis
Sleepy Hollow
Yeamans Hall
Country Club of Charleston

It really is cool to see a square peg in a circular hole.  Raynor's angles on one of the most rugged natural settings in golf!

Pat-

Good to see you posting again!  Must have been down in south Florida looking for green ink!

Jed-

Hope you are well.  Shot me a PM, love to play golf again soon.

Brian-

Yea, I can't top the plane flight in...  The boat was nice, but coming into Fishers by air must be the best!

[Tim Martin]

Can anyone think of two skyline greens on different nine`s that are better than 3 and 10?

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