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Matthew Rose

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #50 on: February 29, 2012, 01:31:14 AM »
I'm curious to see what would be done to the course.

What would you like to see done to Doral?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #51 on: February 29, 2012, 01:50:24 AM »
Jeff,

I ran into Howard not long ago.
I knew his dad

IF he opens play up to hotel guests, and the public, the proximity to the airport is a plus.
And, as others have stated, Miami is in dire need of a good golf course.

I'm not a fan of the dramatic elevation changes in WPB, prefering holes like 3, 9 and 12.
While many on this site tend to favor restorations, including myself, you may be correct in that the market demand, today, in Miami, calls for something new.

I would guess that there might be a desire to preserve # 18

J Lahrman, you've never played any of his courses, yet you reject them based on his persona ?  ?  ?

Shouldn't evidence based architecture, rather than his perceived personality be the criterion by which his courses are judged ? ?  ?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:56:14 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Matthew Rose

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2012, 01:54:36 AM »
Um... you mean someone else, I think.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

jeffwarne

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #53 on: February 29, 2012, 08:39:04 AM »
I'm curious to see what would be done to the course.

What would you like to see done to Doral?


Many holes are fine as is but could probably use a minor faceleft
***In these cases Hanse would tweak specifics as he saw fit, either by restoring any "Dick Wilson angles" and features he deems relevant and/historic,or by creating strategies of his own

#1 move green back, keep as par 5,
2 create green site that sets up risk/reward scenario for driveable par which has been rendered such by technology, and perhaps moreso by moving#1 green (or move green back if there's room)
3 same-good hole
4 same-good hole,but I think I'd make the left play a little more reasonable for the player playing for 4-instead of moving tee way up as they do for the tourists, I'd leave some length but with a 16 at Cypress Point like bail fairway
***5  
***6
***7 would like to see Hanse do something different with one of these holes as 5,6,7 are all well bunkered dogleg lefts on flat terrain
***8
***9
***10 same strategy but with a tweak or two-an interesting hole in that driver isn't always the best way to get an angle to the hole-and yes a tree adds strategy/interest to the hole. I'd make a baill right to pin high a VERY hard up and down making a player committ to going for the green or laying up short(further left the better) to a good angle
11 Classic centerline hazard-only change I'd make to original is to have spine in center dividing  green into left sloping and right sloping making daily pin placement accessible from proper play to opposite side of centerline hazard that's already in middle of fairway-and perhaps make the hazard more "hazardous"
12***
13***
14 bring fairway line over to left water which also makes OB right less likely-reward approaches from left side by sloping green right to left
15 well Trump says island green-I'll leave this one to Gil and him ;)  (I did ace this hole in a playing lesson so Trump's right it's too easy)
16 -move green to edge of water on right make green more accesible to bounce/runup-(rework entire fairway)it's already become driveable in modern years-perhaps even have green slope towards left to right towards the water so a fade that trickles on is the shot(perhaps with a nasty deep bunker having to be skirted) and flying it there is likely wet.Also the left to right sloping green would encourage an agressive layup down the right side protected by Hanse bunkers, rather than bailing left.
17***
18*** as is perhaps a little more fairway on the right that runs into the bunker and more fairway left which rewards the left play and runs hooks into the water

So that's only 6-7 changes and I'd leave the rest to Hanse, Wilson, and adjustments for technology(many of which they've already made)
It's already a good golf course---in places I've moved greens or fairway closer to the water, I've really simply increased the playable area and bail area,but the bail areas wouldn't  make the play easier for the birdie seeker.
Doral's greens have historically lacked contour, I would like to see more slopes in the greens rewarding shots/angles that challenge the bunkers/hazards that are either  "modernly restored" or created by Hanse.

It's been about 10 years since I was there so it may not be perfect but I think the opportunities for a great course complete with honoring history, classic risk reward, and modern pizzazz.
I do hope the bunkers have a Dick Wilson style,not a frilly edged sheep refuge look.
Doral is a product of the 1960's  a retro look would be cool-I certainly hope the finished product bears a  resemblance to the original
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 09:12:25 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Martin Toal

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #54 on: February 29, 2012, 09:10:10 AM »


J Lahrman, you've never played any of his courses, yet you reject them based on his persona ?  ?  ?

Shouldn't evidence based architecture, rather than his perceived personality be the criterion by which his courses are judged ? ?  ?

Fair comment.

With that in mind, have you played Trump National LA, and if so, do you agree with the statement attributed to Trump on the website:

Trump National Golf Club Los Angeles is the pinnacle of the luxury public golf experience. With world renowned restaurants, unmatched service, exclusive amenities, and the most spectacular panoramic Pacific Ocean views, Trump National has no equal.

I have played it, and found it cramped, contrived and overpriced. You can see the water, sure.

I would also argue that you can find a better luxury public golf experience within a short drive.

Trump has been quoted as saying that it is a better course than Pebble or Bandon (specific course unstated). I have never played either, but if Trump is right, I won't be bothering to do so anytime soon.

JLahrman

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #55 on: February 29, 2012, 01:21:43 PM »
J Lahrman, you've never played any of his courses, yet you reject them based on his persona ?  ?  ?

Shouldn't evidence based architecture, rather than his perceived personality be the criterion by which his courses are judged ? ?  ?

Pat, I didn't say that I've personally rejected his courses. I only said I haven't played any. I'm happy to try any course, just haven't had the chance to play any of his.

Totally agree with you that the architecture should be how his courses should be judged.

But my point is that when people heavily intertwine their own identity with their products (Donald Trump, Martha Stewart, Richard Branson), some people will not be interested in trying to separate the two. So I'm not surprised that a few people here would just plain reject Trump courses based on his personality. Generally speaking, on this thread I see most people being hopeful that this pairing will work, with a few people rejecting Trump's courses purely because of Donald Trump the person.

That's not my personal modus operandi. If Donald Trump were a convicted child molester I would probably not give him any business, but his reputation as a self-promoting blowhard doesn't turn me away. However, when you've got a polarizing personality and you inject it into every one of your products, you'll immediately win a few customers and you'll immediately lose a few.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:31:14 PM by JLahrman »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2012, 05:08:24 PM »
Martin Toal,

Never played Trump L.A.  But, I may get the chance in October.

But, remind me again, who designed Trump L.A. ?
Wasn't it PETE DYE ?

JLahrman,

I understand what you're saying, however, I equate the sentiments of the cognoscente with those individuals who would be rejecting a brilliant physician because his bedside manner or personality is lacking.

Me, I want the most highly qualified professional eyes looking after me, irrespective of his personality.
I can adapt to his personality.

With Trump, you have to understand that he wants to produce a high quality product, but, that he's not simply an "artiste" he's engaged in commercialisim, and as such, his promotional efforts rub some the wrong way.

You have to understand that he's an, if not the, ultimate promoter of our times.

He's prone to hyperbole to the point of gross exageration, but, so what.

That doesn't mean his golf courses aren't worthy of praise or that they're void of architectural merit.

Play them, then decide for yourself.

Monday night, while at Trump WPB, I was engaged with a member and we were discussing his remake of Briarcliff.
While it has some redeeming qualities, it's not my cup of tea.
I wouldn't mind visiting occassionally, but, wouldn't want it as a steady diet.

His Bedminster courses are another matter.
There, daily play would be mostly enjoyable, although I think they can be difficult from the back tees.

Let's see what GIL HANSE does at Doral before condemning the finished product.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2012, 05:21:10 PM »
I think Trump has learned his lessons with waterfalls and I would bet he'll do a great job with Doral.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

David Hendler

Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2012, 05:43:33 PM »
I play at Doral about 2-3x per month.  The whole resort was/is in dire need of some TLC and Trump's $ along with the removal of Marriott from the resort should do the trick.  The potential is clearly there on the Blue course - with Gil Hanse and Trump Org's money, this should be a HUGE improvement to what currently exists.

What I am interesting in hearing about, and it has not been released, is:
(a) what will happen to the Red and Gold courses;
(b) is the Silver course included; and
(c) what will happen to the existing members at "The Club at Doral"

The Red and Gold courses have some potential as good resort courses.  Those courses are great for the resort guests and members who are not playing the Blue on a given day.

EVERYONE down here in Miami is convinced that Trump got a STEAL and the resort will be VASTLY improved.

Mac Plumart

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Jud_T

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2012, 08:43:22 AM »
Am I missing something or is the only reason this place is worth $150mm because of the real estate.  Can the resort really net $15-30mm a year?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2012, 08:54:49 AM »
Am I missing something or is the only reason this place is worth $150mm because of the real estate.  Can the resort really net $15-30mm a year?

Jud,
first of all he's going to be in it for way more than 150.
more like 300 if he does spends he says.
I can't comment if that's a good buy or not. Evidently 501 miliion in 2007 wasn't

Secondly,Doral is not in the MIDDLE of Miami as TRump has repeatedly stated.
It's 30 minutes to South Beach Due east.
Drive 30 minutes west and you are DEEP in the everglades. "Deliverance" deep.
Yes Miami has sprawled out to Doral and slightly beyond, but unless things have REALLY changed, the Turnpike (about 2 miles away defines its' western border and it's everglades after that (although they are ever shrinking and that area has exploded with growth)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2012, 02:12:42 PM »
Jeff,

As I think about it, it would seem to be a perfect fit for Miami with it's international flavor.

LaGorce and Indian Creek aren't the easiest clubs for someone new to the area to get into.

Since Miami has seen a tremendous influx of individuals from Central and South America and Europe,
Trump Doral would seem to be a natural fit for those interested in golf.

Add in the winter, snow birds who either have local residences or stay in hotels, who are looking to play golf, Trump Doral would seem to be a natural.

You don't seem to have the same density of residential golf courses in Miami as you do in Ft Lauderdale, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach.  Miami, and Miami Beach are more "high rise" oriented, so driving 20-30 minutes, or less on weekends, is an attractive situation.

The convenience of the airport is another plus.

Remember, Doral was originally a hotel with a golf course, so I wouldn't be shocked to see the "desination" connection emphasized.
Golf at Doral by day, nightlife in Miami/Miami Beach by night has a unique appeal.

But, the biggest asset may be the multiple courses which he can put to mixed use.
One could be a "member's only course" and the others to serve:

The public
Doral Guests
Miami/Miami Beach Hotel Guests

Plus, don't most golfers want to play on a course that the PGA Tour Pros play on ?
So, that will attract another element.

The guy has a pretty good track record when it comes to golf courses and just about everything else, so, I'd have to bet that he'll make this a successful project for himself and for golf.

jeffwarne

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2012, 02:37:31 PM »
Patrick,
We're in complete agreement.

I've done many a day of Doral by day, South Beach by night ;)

My guess is he sees the importance of fixing up the other courses
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Steve Lapper

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2012, 03:29:19 PM »
Am I missing something or is the only reason this place is worth $150mm because of the real estate.  Can the resort really net $15-30mm a year?


I think all of you are missing the real "embedded call" option of this purchase. I wonder which Trump hater will get past themselves to figure it out??

Pat...since you don't qualify as a "hater," you remain ineligible. ;D


PS..Jeffwarne.....don't you think as someone who lives behind the plate glass facade of a Hamptons club dedicated to the wealthy, you might not want to be in the stone-throwing business?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 03:31:37 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

jeffwarne

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2012, 04:59:12 PM »
Steve,
I wish Mr. Trump well.
By all accounts he has bought right, hired a great architect, and has a proven track record.

I'm curious, other than pointing out Doral is not right in the "middle of Miami", what stones I've thrown.
because if I have, I will edit them out promptly as I have friends, employees,and colleagues whose career relies on a positive outcome at Doral.
Just because I'm not a fan of his antics in Scotland doesn't mean I don't endorse him in Miami,and have repeatedly commented he would do well at Doral. (although I mus admit my initial reaction was not so positive)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 07:46:12 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Howard Riefs

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2012, 11:22:30 AM »
Ron Whitten with some details and speculation on the Donald selecting Hanse for the Doral job.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/03/trump-national-doral.html
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Howard Riefs

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2012, 11:14:54 AM »
Make it...

Trump National Doral, per this tweet from The Donald:

"Next year I will be changing the name of 800 acre Doral to Trump National Doral. It will be the best resort in the country—Miami is hot!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/264380145652080640

Sheesh, it's not even the best resort in the state.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2012, 02:31:37 PM »
Never played Trump L.A.  But, I may get the chance in October.

But, remind me again, who designed Trump L.A. ?
Wasn't it PETE DYE ?

Yes, it was Pete Dye who originally designed Trump LA. But then 3 of his holes collapsed into the ocean. Trump then bought it, altered the 1st hole and added the 9th, 17th, and 18th. The course is not really like it was originally, and I find that it's a bit too flashy for my tastes. The 9th and 18th have no strategic value and are long slogs.

I don't think it's a horrible course. But I'd rather save my money and drive another hour and a half away to play Rustic Canyon
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Doral
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2012, 03:49:15 PM »
Hyperbole National at TPC Doral.

WW

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Doral to become Trump National Miami? ... Confirmed
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2012, 04:56:58 PM »
Never played Trump L.A.  But, I may get the chance in October.

But, remind me again, who designed Trump L.A. ?
Wasn't it PETE DYE ?

Yes, it was Pete Dye who originally designed Trump LA. But then 3 of his holes collapsed into the ocean. Trump then bought it, altered the 1st hole and added the 9th, 17th, and 18th. The course is not really like it was originally, and I find that it's a bit too flashy for my tastes. The 9th and 18th have no strategic value and are long slogs.

Connor, you can't fault the Donald if three of the holes collapsed into the Ocean.

So, it's a Dye course with modifications to three holes by Mother Nature and Fazio ?

I don't know many courses that would fare well if three of their holes and the land they sat on disappeared.
That would seem to be a difficult dilemma from a routing and design perspective.


I don't think it's a horrible course. But I'd rather save my money and drive another hour and a half away to play Rustic Canyon.

Bruce Katona

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Re: Doral to become Trump National Doral
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2012, 11:22:49 AM »
I remember working on Doral for a 2-3 months several years ago.  The flight path to the airport runways was a big challange but not one that couldn't be overcome.  The flip side is that the resort is very close to the airport - easy- in; easy-out.

Doral is not dissimilar to Blue Heron Pines, which is very close to the airport in Atlantic City.  In addition to commercial air traffic, AC also is/was used by the NJ Air Guard.  Those military planes are really loud.


Andy Troeger

Re: Doral to become Trump National Doral
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2012, 11:27:41 PM »
Patrick,
Regarding Trump National LA, regardless of who designed the course its just not very good. I'm not sure if you ended up visiting after your original comment, but the site is very severe. The fairways generally are terraced into a steep hill with some very long grass in between leading to high potential for lost balls. I only played it once and found the holes to not be very memorable. There were two cool features--an oddly shaped green with many interesting pin placements on #12 and a shortish par three surrounded by sand (#15?).

Its a beautiful spot to spend an afternoon, but I'd be happier on the patio than playing the golf course. The service is exemplary and high-class, as I expect is pretty normal at a Trump facility.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Doral to become Trump National Doral
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2012, 10:52:58 AM »
Andy,

Who was the original developer or was Trump in it from the get go ?

Andy Troeger

Re: Doral to become Trump National Doral
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2012, 02:01:44 PM »
Patrick,
Not sure. Connor pretty much stated what I had heard about the project. Pete Dye designed the original course, called Ocean Trails. After the problems with the 18th, Trump bought it, spent a ton of money, and the course is now his and Trump is listed as the designer. I never saw the course before Trump purchased it, so I can't say how different the current course is from the original version.

The course isn't awful by any means, its just nowhere close to the courses Mr. Trump has compared it to (Pebble, Bandon, etc). It makes some of the best in state lists, but I'd be surprised if California doesn't have 40 courses that are better.

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