News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shanqin Bay Review
« on: October 12, 2011, 09:40:00 AM »
Ni Hao,

Planet Golf has posted a comprehensive review of Coore & Crenshaw's first contribution in China, the course at Shanqin Bay.
http://www.planetgolf.com.au/index.php?id=1541

Visiting Shanqin Bay two weeks ago on a blustery day I was lucky enough to see a truly exhilarating golf course.  Here, the spectacular views are for once backed up by challenging, broad and strategic golf.

The site is quite extreme and supposedly both Gary Player's firm and one other firm (I forget which one) said that nothing could be done here.  How Bill Coore proved them wrong... 

Perhaps the remote nature of the golf course put off western firms - getting to the first tee was an adventure in itself! Let me elaborate.. The high speed train stops near the village of Bo'ao about a twenty minute drive from the course.  At the train station there is not a taxi in sight.  Taking a tuk tuk is ill advised unless you want to 1) get lost, 2) pay far too much and 3) arrive in well over an hour.

Finally in a taxi with directions translated through the cellphone, the drive is "This is China" on steroids.  Road rules are thrown entirely out the window as cars, trucks, bikes, humans and people all share one lane of the road littered with rubbish.  On the other lane the farmers were harvesting their crops - the lifeblood of this poor local economy. Our driver was in a particular hurry barely slowing below 70kph despite the obstacles in his way.  Fortunately he gave no respite with the horn and so people knew we were coming through... Somehow we arrived at base camp Shanqin Bay in one piece.  [Some of the C&C guys went through the local driving tests so they could drive themselves and not put up with 'that' each day...]

Base camp is about 2km from the clubhouse and where the C&C offices were based for almost two years. You wouldn't call it plush.  What was cool was sitting in the little shack next door that is owned by locals and sells supplies. Since construction started the crew have been drinking there after work - beers for the equivalent of about 60 cents.  The super, Chris, told me that since they started work the shack has two new TV screens and two new freezers and is now doing a roaring trade.

Driving golf carts out to the course, we were fortunate enough to spend a good few hours walking the course and even hitting a few running two irons.  Personally, it is an entirely new phenomenon to see the ball rolling along the ground in China. In fact, a golfer with more skill than I could probably play the entire course (except one uphill par three) with a two iron.  That's cool.

There are features at Shanqin Bay that get me really excited but, for China, will be defined as very quirky. For example, until now, no client has been convinced to allow blind shots like the Alps hole that features on this course (I don't think many architects put up too much of a fight for fear of losing the job.....).   A fuller review of the golf holes is in the Planet Golf Article and I apologise for not being able to load photographs onto GCA.

I will, however, mention the 17th hole which really blew me away.  It's a short par four played right along the ocean and one of the few holes built on natural sand.  Yet the architects resisted temptation to bunker it at all.  Instead, there is a hugely wide fairway with a ledge running lengthways down the hole, parallel with the ocean.  The green is very narrow and the best line of attack is from smack bang in the middle of the fairway, directly on the left (high side) of the ledge.  From anywhere else the golfer will be shooting on an angle across the narrow green which is very difficult a la the 4th at Woodlands.  Around the green is natural sandy wasteland and, a likely bogey.

It will be interesting to see the reaction to this course when it opens. Unfortunately the business model is to attract a very high end membership and so this amazing course is unlikely to get extensive play.

@Pure_Golf

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 11:41:33 AM »
Michael,

Thanks for posting.  The 16th looks very cool as well.  Hopefully there'll be enough of these types of courses that more of us GCA golf snobs will want to make the trip someday...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 08:09:46 PM »
Jud, my pleasure.

16 is really cool (although the pro's will probably ask 'what iron / hyrbid' should I hit...).  You can actually feed it down onto the green from way up on the left edge of the fairway.  It's an example of a 80 yard + wide fairways where it is plausible to lose your ball in the long stuff.
@Pure_Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 09:20:19 PM »
Michael:

Only two flags?  It's not one of the 25-30 best courses in the world?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 09:37:35 PM »
Thanks, Michael. I didn't know anything about this, but it's interesting and (to me, at least) surprising. I guess there IS room for everything in a country so large and so quickly changing.

Peter

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 09:44:24 PM »
Tom,

Not in my eyes.  Largely because the site is way too intense.  

Let me put it this way, I have not played a top 25 course where I wouldn't like to walk straight back out to play again (even after 2 hours sleep the night before ballyB).

Peter, It shouldn't be too surprising that in the last seven years with almost 400 golf courses built that one developer has got it right. Whilst I'm not holding my breath, I hope that Shanqin will be the first of many great courses here.



@Pure_Golf

Peter Pallotta

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 10:01:13 PM »
Michael - I wasn't thinking so much about getting it right or not.  I meant it more as a dig at myself -- a dig at having previously made such (uniformed) guesses about the future of golf and gca in a country (and a way of life, and a people) that I already knew I didn't know at all. Some co-workers who have travelled to both India and China extensively, and have met and dealt with senior political and business leaders in both countries , all say that while they 'understand' the Indians, they come away -- even from meetings that on the surface were very successful -- feeling that they don't understand the Chinese at all. In a gca context, it's therefore not about either 'selling them short' or 'giving them too much credit', it's about getting comfortable with the huge ? (question mark) that is the evolution of a people's true and deepest aspirations.  I wonder how many architects working/planning to work there are making the same mistake I am, i.e. thinking that they've got the situation 'figured out'?

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:02:44 PM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 10:22:55 PM »
Peter:

In the last interview I did, for GOLF Magazine, I stated that I didn't think anyone from the West would ever really understand what is really happening in China and what they are thinking.  I'll stick with that.

But, it is a nice idea to try and show them what GOLF is really all about.  And they are so resistant!  There are always two guys in the room telling you that golfers in China will not accept this or that, even though they have never had the chance to see anything like what we are talking about.

I am in the very small minority of thinking that cool match play golf courses will be a hit in China.  Why?  Because THEY LOVE TO GAMBLE.  So, if they're out there for the game, and not for the status or the real estate value, they will love a course that's exciting and unpredictable.  Of course, I could be wrong ... but I'm not going to give up before I ever see if I'm right.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »
Peter,

What you've written is correct in that the culture here represents an entirely different way of thinking that is currently beyond my understanding.  Yet I'm 26 so perhaps my mind is still malleable and time is on my side so that one day (probably decades away) I might be able to properly engage with the people of this country.

Engaging and really understanding the golf world here is difficult because, from, what I've seen from both an attitudes and design perspective are so different to 'the West'. 

The most successful guys over here clearly 1) understand the culture better than anyone else and 2) are completely willing to roll with the punches.  For example, last week a firm without experience in China was terminated from a job after they stuck to their design principles and philosophies (and didn't look over their shoulder).

From my minimal experience, Tom is correct that they like to gamble and it's a good argument to bring to the table.

Although I've seen many golfers (and their caddies) closely adhering to the card and pencil spirit.... For example, a couple of weeks ago a player from a group ahead started running back down the fairway towards us as we approached the green.  He had picked up on the hole and his partner in their match had obviously scolded him and suggested he go back to finish.  So back he walked and climbed into a hazard, placed his ball amongst the foliage, took a few practice swings (...), paused...., and hit 20 yards up to the fairway.  A couple of minutes later he had made it up to the green where we were waiting quite intrigued about this episode.  We then paused and watched as he lined up his putts for some moments before eventually putting out for an 8.... I must admit I was hysterical with laughter and when he left my tongue was sore from biting it so hard.

@Pure_Golf

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 01:12:36 AM »
While not Shanqin Bay, I will attest that Chinese, and particularly Chinese golfers, like to gamble.  I followed this group last February and they were doing this on almost every tee box.  Making the turn, they had the luxury of 5 groups on the 10th hole, so quite a backup......perfect for a few hands:

Ryan Farrow

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 02:28:03 AM »
Chinese women are equally as difficult to understand as American Women.   Some things in this world are always constant.

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 02:48:23 AM »
Has Gary Player ever turned down a project? Certainly not one on a site like this so not sure about the veracity of that story!

This project is unique in a number of ways - not only the site- it also had 8 expats on site during construction which is UNIQUE for a project of this scale in China and has certainly contributed to its quality, particularly the retention of its natural features. Most 18 hole projects are lucky to have one or 2 expats on site.

What will be interesting over time is how its quirky features are accepted by local golfers, whether the clearing lines are modified to make it a little more beginner "friendly" and how its look is preserved over time once the expats leave and the local super is in charge. The last point has been the stumbling block for many a course in Asia. It doesn't take long for bunker lines to be obliterated. Time will tell - although I suspect this project with it's big hitters in charge (Citic) will do better than most.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 02:54:43 AM »
The super is a western guy, Chris, who has been on site for a year + and is staying on so hopefully those issues don't arise!

He's the one that mentioned about Gary Player etc. And with the severity of the site, it made some sense to me...
@Pure_Golf

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 03:11:34 AM »
The super is a western guy, Chris, who has been on site for a year + and is staying on so hopefully those issues don't arise!

He's the one that mentioned about Gary Player etc. And with the severity of the site, it made some sense to me...

I am sure Chris is doing a stirling job and may well be there a year or 2 more - but ultimately it will revert to a local guy, and there are good ones that will get it but there are plenty more who will not. Its very easy for a golf course to go downhill real fast. That said, the owner/chairman of this one has very deep pockets, its his pet project and he may just keep getting the right people in. Fingers crossed.

I just don't get the too severe site comments (although it is quite severe for a C&C site it does not look super severe to me?) - Player's firm has worked in a lot steeper places including Japan and Korea...and those sites are probably rock and not sand? Anyways, the real truth is hard to come by sometimes, especially in China.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 03:46:38 AM »
I'm sure you're right in that you never quite know what is going on..

But I'm pretty sure that only two holes are built on sand and the rest over some pretty rugged terrain.       
@Pure_Golf

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 06:01:37 AM »


I am in the very small minority of thinking that cool match play golf courses will be a hit in China.  Why?  Because THEY LOVE TO GAMBLE. 

This sounds like my kind of place!  Titanic Thompson meets Bruce Lee!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 09:25:12 AM »
Where does one stay in Shanqin?  Is this hotel open?

http://www.architizer.com/en_us/projects/view/shanqin-bay-golf-boutique-hotel/29644/


Are there other hotels?

Are there other courses nearby?

How does one travel there from the USA west coast?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 10:26:32 AM »

The most successful guys over here clearly 1) understand the culture better than anyone else and 2) are completely willing to roll with the punches.  For example, last week a firm without experience in China was terminated from a job after they stuck to their design principles and philosophies (and didn't look over their shoulder).


Sounds terrible...sticking to what you believe in or what you've had success with in the past. Better to just do it their way and take the money and run? Was the firm that got replaced a "quality endorsed designer"?

I especially like the looking over their shoulder comment. Sounds like the golf biz in China isn't all that different then here in the US.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 10:30:48 AM »
Steve, in China nearby is all relative.

From the West Coast, you fly out of  San Fran or LAX to Hong Kong - 1 Hour flight from Hong Kong to Haikou. Then a 1 hour high speed train from the airport to the Boao Train Station.... as Michael experienced, then..... you are on your own. On the other hand, when you arrive in Haikou, Mission Hills has a shuttle bus, probably every 30 minutes or so to the resort which is about 20 minutes away and you have 10 golf courses to choose from. If your lucky enough, you may even run into me  ;), probably the only person who plays golf without the mandatory Caddy and black book.

I am sure once the C&C course actually opens, getting from the train station to the course should be much easier. I believe there are 2 courses in the city of Boao, probably 20 minutes away, 1 is a Grahm Marsh course, the other?  If you travel about 45 minutes away, you have the Dunes at Shenzhou Penninsula, a pretty cool 36 hole Tom Weiskopf complex right on the ocean. I believe all 36 should be opening sometime soon...


And no, that hotel is not open, The city of Boao probably has a few decent hotels. And you might want to find a interpreter to bring along.... The island is not very English friendly.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:32:26 AM by Ryan Farrow »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 10:52:05 AM »
Steve, in China nearby is all relative.

From the West Coast, you fly out of  San Fran or LAX to Hong Kong - 1 Hour flight from Hong Kong to Haikou. Then a 1 hour high speed train from the airport to the Boao Train Station.... as Michael experienced, then..... you are on your own. On the other hand, when you arrive in Haikou, Mission Hills has a shuttle bus, probably every 30 minutes or so to the resort which is about 20 minutes away and you have 10 golf courses to choose from. If your lucky enough, you may even run into me  ;), probably the only person who plays golf without the mandatory Caddy and black book.



There are also direct flights to Haikou from Seoul and Shanghai and Beijing and other places, although the connecting flights are a bit longer than from Hong Kong.

Of course, you've got more than ten golf courses to choose from without ever leaving the U.S. west coast.  There will, eventually, be enough outstanding courses on Hainan Island to make the trip worthwhile ... not sure how many of them merit a visit yet.  I saw two of the ten courses at Mission Hills last month; I would have been happy to play one of them, and disappointed if I'd flown very far to see the other one.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 11:24:35 AM »
Good banter to arrive home to. Don, yes.

Steve - no rush to go to Bo'ao. It's not open, nor ready for guests (for now it's still an ultra private model).

One day there will be a great golf trip to Haikou and Bo'ao.  Bo'ao has Shanqin Bay but also the Shenzhou peninsula courses that ryan refers to that are highly rated (I wont see them for another few weeks).  Haikou obviously has the 10 courses at MH (a couple are worth the visit) but Haikou also has some other exciting prospects.

Ryan, the other course at Bo'ao is being done by Thompson Perrett (Rosco kept that quiet).











@Pure_Golf

Ryan Farrow

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 04:41:13 PM »
Steve, in China nearby is all relative.

From the West Coast, you fly out of  San Fran or LAX to Hong Kong - 1 Hour flight from Hong Kong to Haikou. Then a 1 hour high speed train from the airport to the Boao Train Station.... as Michael experienced, then..... you are on your own. On the other hand, when you arrive in Haikou, Mission Hills has a shuttle bus, probably every 30 minutes or so to the resort which is about 20 minutes away and you have 10 golf courses to choose from. If your lucky enough, you may even run into me  ;), probably the only person who plays golf without the mandatory Caddy and black book.



There are also direct flights to Haikou from Seoul and Shanghai and Beijing and other places, although the connecting flights are a bit longer than from Hong Kong.

Of course, you've got more than ten golf courses to choose from without ever leaving the U.S. west coast.  There will, eventually, be enough outstanding courses on Hainan Island to make the trip worthwhile ... not sure how many of them merit a visit yet.  I saw two of the ten courses at Mission Hills last month; I would have been happy to play one of them, and disappointed if I'd flown very far to see the other one.

And the 2 of the 10 would be? Blackstone &? Just curious.

Well, not many courses are worth a 15 hour plane ride, in general China is a place most would like to visit for sightseeing reasons, eventually, and I think it is now, truly worth bringing your clubs and splitting your time if you are a golf nut. Of course, the only reason to visit Hainan is to golf. And lets get serious here, I am sure anyone would be disappointed to fly half way around the world for 1 round of golf, Hainan will have a mix of stunning, must-see courses, great, good, average, and of course, plenty of bad.

I don't think the GCA crowd would be disappointed to play the C&C, Weiskopf and a couple of our Mission Hills courses. Like you said, A few more heavy hitters need to open up to really make it worth your while to come from the states.

Michael, I thought there were already 2 older courses open on Boao, I might be mistaken. I have seen some mysterious projects around the Island on Google Earth lately.

James Duncan

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 09:02:49 PM »
My take on golf in China is the following:

- The Chinese want to have fun playing golf, just like everyone else;
- They love privacy/exclusivity;
- They care about golf course rankings to the extent it helps them sell a project, but I wouldn't characterize them as golf snobs. They'd laugh dismissively at half the discussions that take place in this forum.
- They have no tolerance for "principled design" i.e. doing things just because Old Tom Morris, Alister MacKenzie or C. B. Macdonald thought they were good ideas.

Succeeding in China, in my very limited experience, has to do with playing to your audience while recognizing why you've been hired in the first place. When Schmidt/Curley proposes designing wacky courses for Mission Hills (and I mean that in the best possible way) it's partly because that's what Mission Hills believes is the best fit for their business model. And they are most likely right. When we designed a no-frills golf course at Shanqin Bay on a severe piece of ground, it was a reflection of our client, the property and how we think it'll be used (including the odd bet, no doubt). As for whether the golf course design cognoscente agree this is fitting; frankly, who cares?

The Chinese golf market, and that of Hainan, is evolving. The extent to which we are being retained as so-called "experts" on golf course design, I believe should be reflected in how well we combine the traditions of golf with the sensibilities of the Chinese golfer. Precisely what this means is obviously a moving target, reflective of each client and each situation.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 09:36:52 PM »
My take on golf in China is the following:

- The Chinese want to have fun playing golf, just like everyone else;
- They love privacy/exclusivity;
- They care about golf course rankings to the extent it helps them sell a project, but I wouldn't characterize them as golf snobs. They'd laugh dismissively at half the discussions that take place in this forum.
- They have no tolerance for "principled design" i.e. doing things just because Old Tom Morris, Alister MacKenzie or C. B. Macdonald thought they were good ideas.


James:

How is that love of privacy / exclusivity going to coexist with their new regulations, which basically frown on private golf, but give courses a pass if they're open to resort play?  I'm sure some people will try to do the speakeasy approach of making their courses "all but private," but how many can operate that way?

I think the market is going to evolve very quickly if more courses are built ... comparison shopping will be done and the best courses will rise to the top.  Of course, the Chinese definition of "best" is still to be written, but do you really think their definition will be that much different from our own, or from the Scots' definition?

James Duncan

Re: Shanqin Bay Review
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 11:22:03 PM »
Tom:

Good questions. Nothing is ever quite as it appears in China. I'm still not sure I understand the business models behind many of the golf projects I've seen there, and I have no ambition to understand them anytime soon. I'm not sure what to make of the various policies and regulations, either. In Confucian terms: I don't know, but at least I know I don't know–which is strangely comforting.

Do I think their definition of "good" will be that much different from our own, or that of the Scots? Yes, and no. Depending on the client, the project and the site, I think there will be opportunities to showcase traditional golf, but at this point it has to be camouflaged in a spectacular setting. There's no doubt the Chinese golfers I've played with respond to "the rood stuff", but I doubt they'd play some of the understated classics that we admire for their architectural subtleties. In the final analysis, I take comfort in the fact that even MacKenzie and Bobby Jones were lukewarm about the Old Course on first impressions...