TRALEE - what is the story?

[Sean_A]

I never hear folks praising Tralee.  Why is this?  Its on a undeniably beautiful spot.  There are some cracking holes.  There are some unusual holes.  Why the lack of love?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I never hear folks praising Tralee.  Why is this?  Its on a undeniably beautiful spot.  There are some cracking holes.  There are some unusual holes.  Why the lack of love?

Ciao

I like Tralee a lot Sean but there are few courses (maybe none) I've come across less suited to strokeplay... 12, 13 & 16 are all or nothing holes albeit very exciting ones...

14 & 15 are great holes... I always thought 2 could be a little better though by using the cliffs as a cape a little more... 3 & 8 are spectacular too... 7 is a lovely little par-3... 6 has a poor drive but a great second...

Overall, it feels just a touch contrived in places and has a couple of holes (e.g. 9) that could do with some real sprucing up... But that aside, it is a fantastic place to play with perhaps the best setting of them all... In or around my Top-10 in Ireland

[Jud_T]

Because many would prefer to play Ballybunion or Lahinch every time over Tralee?  Just guessing as I skipped the course following a bit of research in the Confidential Guide.  If I recall correctly he gave the course a poor rating (2?) and said something to the effect of "hard to help feeling that an opportunity was missed here".

[Niall C]

Because many would prefer to play Ballybunion or Lahinch every time over Tralee?  Just guessing as I skipped the course following a bit of research in the Confidential Guide.  If I recall correctly he gave the course a poor rating (2?) and said something to the effect of "hard to help feeling that an opportunity was missed here".

Jud

Ever thought of going off piste ? I'm sure Tom D wouldn't be insulted if you decided to check it out for yourself.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Niall,

At my age and weight it's best to stay well within the boundary ropes...

[Garland Bayley]

Because many would prefer to play Ballybunion or Lahinch every time over Tralee?  Just guessing as I skipped the course following a bit of research in the Confidential Guide.  If I recall correctly he gave the course a poor rating (2?) and said something to the effect of "hard to help feeling that an opportunity was missed here".

Actual CG wording, "I think some good land was wasted here. 0-5."

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean it has been a long time since I Played Tralee. It must have 1993.
I remember pretty much every hole. I wanted to like the course but didn't
Until I went back over my round. I have to say that some of the holes
on holes on the front side were just average. The back nine is a different
story. I had never played anything like some of those holes. I think
the par threes were brilliant if not just down right hard. There were a
Couple of par fours that were pretty tight and required a lot of thought
and precise shot making. I have been in the area again but have not
taken the opportunity to play it again and probably won't.  I'd rather
spend the time playing Ballybunion old twice and even Cashen. I think
I'd even rather play Dingle than Tralee.   So to answer your question, i
Dont know why it doesn't  garner much love because it is not a bad course. What I
don't get is why Waterville generates so much love.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I remember 9 or so great holes mostly on the back. And the rest are so so.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I played Tralee in 2005.
Is this the 2nd?

I believe this is Tralee also.

[Tom_Doak]

Because many would prefer to play Ballybunion or Lahinch every time over Tralee?  Just guessing as I skipped the course following a bit of research in the Confidential Guide.  If I recall correctly he gave the course a poor rating (2?) and said something to the effect of "hard to help feeling that an opportunity was missed here".

Actual CG wording, "I think some good land was wasted here. 0-5."

I will stand by that assessment.  That second hole is terrific, but even the standout holes on the back nine seemed like they could have been better with a green moved a bit, or at least laid more on the ground like a real links green, instead of having an American-style bunker right at the front edge of them.  And there are some really severe holes, too.

P.S.  I've only been back once -- I took Jim Urbina out there at some point.  He started to question Mr. Palmer's routing, and it started to rain, VERY HARD, while we were pretty far away from the clubhouse.  He said he learned never to take the King's name in vain.

[Aidan Bradley]

Yes Bruce, that is #2.

[Niall C]

Why is that I can imagine Aidan on the radio to the captain of the ship saying, "thats it, stop right there, perfect". As always fantastic photos that are awash with colour.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

Because many would prefer to play Ballybunion or Lahinch every time over Tralee?  Just guessing as I skipped the course following a bit of research in the Confidential Guide.  If I recall correctly he gave the course a poor rating (2?) and said something to the effect of "hard to help feeling that an opportunity was missed here".

Having played Tralee on Saturday, I would say not wanting to play a course because there are other great courses nearby that are preferred is silly.
That's like saying you don't want to play Bandon Dunes once when you're in Bandon because you hear others prefer Pacific Dunes.
Why wouldn't you check it out yourself when you're only 40 minutes away, unless you're in Ireland to play 2 courses or have limited time.

Doak described Tralee as an opportunity missed, and he has earned the right to a respected opinion, but even if he believes a better course could have been made, does that not mean that what's there can't still be great?
Evidently many changes and tweaks have been made==I'm not sure specifically what changes were made(perhaps Brian Sheehy can chime in), but I certainly loved the golf course and was not dying to play it going in.

In defense of those criticizing Tralee, I played it in 1991 and was not overwhelmed, leading me to let 21 years go by.
 The words(besides breathtaking and awesome) that came out describing it most from my three amateur high handicap partners was "playable".
It is incredibly scenic, but I found the architecture outstanding as well.
There was only one hole that I found really difficult on the back (#12--I putted my second shot 70 yards down the fairway to avoid laying up 20 yards farther to a 15 yard wide neck of fairway in a 25 mph wind (I had 220 into the green after  playing 3 wood off the tee)
But that's no different than #11 at ballybunion that is commonly praised (I like that hole a lot as well)
I would say that on GCA Tralee may be one of the most underrated courses out there, and frankly Ballybunion Old is quite overrated(I think BB Old is great,just not greater than Tralee to the extent many have here gushed over it).
Both courses are great, but one is quietly panned here, the other adored.
If Arnold O'Hackett had designed it in 1893 it would be a GCA darling.

[Michael Goldstein]

Jeff,

I disagree with your comment that Tralee is one of the most underrated and Ballybunion the most overrated.

Have a read of Ran's write up of Tralee.

Personally, I disagree with Ran: walking around the spectacular land on the back nine it's hard to not come to the conclusion that it was a missed opportunity.  For example, look at the land behind one of the aforementioned pictures by Bruce Wellmon.



 

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I disagree with your comment that Tralee is one of the most underrated and Ballybunion the most overrated.

Have a read of Ran's write up of Tralee.

Personally, I disagree with Ran: walking around the spectacular land on the back nine it's hard to not come to the conclusion that it was a missed opportunity.  For example, look at the land behind one of the aforementioned pictures by Bruce Wellmon.



  

Michael,
Thanks for your reply.
just to be clear, I think Ballybunion Old is a great course. I've played the Old course on 4 different trips over 21 years.
I also enjoyed the New.

Regarding Tralee,
I'm curious where exactly you would route a hole in Bruce's pictures.
I often hear courses criticized for not going into the dunes in certain areas.
Sometimes they are not allowed to or the terrain is too severe (as Bruce's pictures would seem to indicate)
On a course often criticized for its' playability, would it be wise to venture further  into those high severe dunes, even if they were allowed?
Should a course bordered by  spectacular dunes be evaluated for what it is?, or for what it could have been.
If a course could have been a 12 but is still a 9.5, is it still not a 9.5?

Ran's writeups are wonderful. I've enjoyed all of them.
I often disagree with Tom Doak's assessment of a course. To be fair, he visited many of them 20-30 years ago, and often evaluated without playing. Portsalon would be a great example of this(positive change since he was there).
Still very useful commentary and a great resource.

[Jud_T]

Jeff,

I can't comment one way or another on Tralee not having seen the course.  If I spent a full summer in Ireland I'd probably check it out to see what all the fuss is about and take some photos.  But if you had a week to live and someone who's opinion you valued highly told you the seven best restaurants in the world you simply had to eat dinner at before you die, and you responded "well what about Joe's Burger Shack"?, to which he replied, "Well the location is first rate, but the meat he has to work with is really tough and sinewy and he only does a middling job with it at that", what would you do?

[Sean_A]

Jeff

At the prices Tralee charge, I do think other great courses in near proximity does make a difference.  I can go up the road and get two games at Lahinch over two days for 10 Euro more.  Pretty much a no brainer if one isn't on a forced march- tee hee.

I started this thread because I wondered just why only Jeff Warne places Tralee alongside Ballybunion and Lahinch.  Nobody seems to have much of an answer so far. 

Ciao

[Michael Goldstein]

Jeff,

I'm speaking as an armchair architect, but I think the issue is the starting parameter that the course be balanced with 9 holes on the dunes and nine on more flat land (36, 36 I believe).

I'd have thought that 13 or 14 holes could be put across the back nine land including, probably, four par threes across the more extreme land.  Think about the land to the right of the 15th tee or the dramatic corridor in the photograph. Also, the wide corridors on holes like 11, 12 and 14 use up huge amounts of interesting land and I wonder whether that's the best use of these natural features.  

Personally, I'd have less heroic greens too and more in the hollows - eg run the 10th to the base of the hill before that high 17th green!

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I'm speaking as an armchair architect, but I think the issue is the starting parameter that the course be balanced with 9 holes on the dunes and nine on more flat land (36, 36 I believe).

I'd have thought that 13 or 14 holes could be put across the back nine land including, probably, four par threes across the more extreme land.  Think about the land to the right of the 15th tee or the dramatic corridor in the photograph. Also, the wide corridors on holes like 11, 12 and 14 use up huge amounts of interesting land and I wonder whether that's the best use of these natural features.  

Personally, I'd have less heroic greens too and more in the hollows - eg run the 10th to the base of the hill before that high 17th green!

Sounds reasonable

 I really just focus on playing the course, not what they could have done-for me that would come on a later play.

Sean, at Tralee you can play 1 round for 140 euro before 10 and 50 euro for a replay withing 7 days,so it's comparable,but I'd agree Lahinch is the better value.
We paid 75 euro total for 4 players at Tralee-Does that mean I can rate it higher?

[Doug Siebert]

I've posted positive things about Tralee before, Sean, you must have missed it

I think it suffers by comparison to its neighbors, I mean, having a Doak 10 and Doak 9 as alternate choices for one's golf that day makes it look worse than if it had a couple of typical Florida style resort courses down the road.

As for Tom's comments about it being a missed opportunity.  Obviously I'm not qualified to comment on that, not only am I not an architect I'm not even enough of an armchair architect to play a course and be constantly thinking about alternate routings or green sites (I'll turn in my GCA.com card at the front desk when I check in at Dismal)  I am only looking at a course for what it is, not what it could be.  It doesn't compare to Ballybunion, or Lahinch, but I'd call it somewhere above 7 but less than 8 (if the wind is blowing...like many links courses, I think it would suffer in calm conditions, but I'll probably never see it like that)

It does have more of a heroic element on the back nine than is typical of courses in the area, but that's just a quibble as far as I'm concerned.  Even the little Dell is pretty heroic if you're a very short hitter, or played into a 50 mph wind with a 2 iron as I once did.

[Sean_A]

Jeff,

I'm speaking as an armchair architect, but I think the issue is the starting parameter that the course be balanced with 9 holes on the dunes and nine on more flat land (36, 36 I believe).

I'd have thought that 13 or 14 holes could be put across the back nine land including, probably, four par threes across the more extreme land.  Think about the land to the right of the 15th tee or the dramatic corridor in the photograph. Also, the wide corridors on holes like 11, 12 and 14 use up huge amounts of interesting land and I wonder whether that's the best use of these natural features.  

Personally, I'd have less heroic greens too and more in the hollows - eg run the 10th to the base of the hill before that high 17th green!

Sounds reasonable

 I really just focus on playing the course, not what they could have done-for me that would come on a later play.

Sean, at Tralee you can play 1 round for 140 euro before 10 and 50 euro for a replay withing 7 days,so it's comparable,but I'd agree Lahinch is the better value.
We paid 75 euro total for 4 players at Tralee-Does that mean I can rate it higher?

Jeff

You can rate Tralee however you like, but you seem to be in the extreme minority of folks who think it is just as good as Ireland's top courses. Michael points out that maybe there is too much heroism involved.  From my experience I would probably agree.  The course is more in the mold of The Cashen which doesn't really offer a measured flow to the design - its mostly smash mouth golf with a decent wind about.  Combined with the elements of blindness, plateau greens and narrow fairways with massive falloffs - it can make for a long day. 

Ciao     

[Ally Mcintosh]

You're all talking about the back nine and Tom Doak says the 2nd is cracking.... But am I the only one - despite thinking the course is excellent - who thinks the 2nd hole could be better?

Maybe move the first green towards the cliffs at the 2nd tees and shorten the 2nd to a par-4 with a truly heroic diagonal choice over the bay?... There could well be safety / site reasons why this isn't possible and my memory is hazy(ish) on the topography around the first green though....

There are a few penal holes at Tralee and maybe some of the greens have a little bit of a constructed look about them... But aside from that, the course is a must-play... Best setting in Ireland for my money...

[Bart Bradley]

Ally:

Tralee is a wonderful experience.  It is among the places that I would feel sad if someone told me that I would never get back.  The setting is spectacular and many of the holes are really good.  There are a few clunkers too.  I don't think you can compare it favorably to the best golf courses in the area (Lahinch or Bally Old) but very few courses in the world compare favorably to those two.

Just my opinion,

Bart

[jeffwarne]

bump

my biggest surprise in Ireland this year.
Played with three high handicappers and found it VERY playable, beautiful, and very few weak holes with MANY great holes.
Worth a revisit for those who have panned it.

A classic example of a course evolving greatly for the better.
Crazy that it should be put down because of its' proximity to other great venues (Lahinch, BB--although I preferred Tralee to BB this go round)

[William_G]

Just played Lahinch, Doonbeg, BB, and Tralee with 7 other well traveled golfiers

to a man we all have Tralee as our favorite

interestingly there was some rumor around that changes are in the works on the front nine  

Lahinch is a classic for sure and is the only course where the flag sticks are shorter than I am, lol...the scale is smaller as it was built long ago when the ball did not fly very far...the town has grown around it and is a must play experience with many great hole thru the dunes

DB is a beautiful dunes with a first hole that just says wow! unfortunately the routing suffered from some environmental issues that took 40 acres out of the original routing..enough said

BB has some fantastic holes and is a wonderful routing amongst more dunes yet the long grass is so penal for missed shot with 2-3 yards of the fairway that lost balls and looking for lost ball became a preoccupation of the day. Obviouslythe dunes need long grass to remain stable otherwise the erosion could take over. Yet Ittw ould be so much more fun to see some less penal rough/grass adjacent to the holes

Tralee has a great front nine along the shore and away from the dunes, and the back has some wild holes thru the dunes,

Loved Tralee