[Ed Oden]

In my experience, severely canted fairways were a golden age staple.  Pretty much all the ODGs used them.  However, they seem in short supply on modern designs.  Am I right that this feature is endangered?  If so, why is that?  And is the decline a good thing?  I will confess that a sharply pitched fairway has always appealed to my eye.

[Mac Plumart]

Rivermont's got some...15 and 16.

I hear lots of complaints about how "unfair" 15 is.  Common complaint is that if you hit a good driver, the ball funnels off the fairway left.  HELLO...try 3 wood!  When I tell people that, they say "But I like to hit driver."  Do you like to hit driver...or play golf? 

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Not to mention "hogback" fairways.

Architects were mean and hurtful people back then.

Malcolm

[Tom_Doak]

They are scarce nowadays because the fairways are mowed so much tighter!

In the old days, a fairway had to be STEEP before a ball would run out of it sideways into the rough.  Example:  the fifth at Merion is a 10% sideslope.  But on today's fairways, anything much over 5-6% is gone.

[Ed Oden]

Tom, that makes sense in theory.  But there are a lot of highly regarded courses with them.  And some of those pride themselves on firm/fast conditions.  For example, they seem to work just fine at Huntingdon Valley, which has damn near the ideal maintenance meld as far as I'm concerned.  Aren't there several at Crystal?  I'm not quite ready to accept that canted fairways and modern maintenance practices are mutually exclusive concepts.

[Sean_A]

Ed

I don't think people in general like severely canted fairways, but I bet that is usually a function of width.  IMO SCFs are usually too narrow and if playing on treed course a guy can get upset while looking for a ball in the leaves when he hit it in the middle of the fairway.  I don't mind them as a necessity of routing or as a one-off sort of thing.  I know from experience at Pennard that folks think the 17th & 18th are unfair because of the sloping fairways. 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I don't think it's the sloping fairways that are the problem at Pennard's 17th and 18th (not all of it, anyway).  The combination of sloping fairways and absurdly narrow fairways is, however!

[Sean_A]

Canary

I have no issue with the 18th because its right there to be seen and is really the only prescribed tee shot on the course.  17, however, is messed up.  That slope with blindness is not on, plus there isn't enough width for the lay-up second (I don't mind the narrrowness for those going at the green in two).  The strange thing is that many people pick 17 as their favourite hole - I suspect the views on the tee play a big part.

I seem to recall Tralee having a hole on the front nine with a ridiculous slope to the left with harsh rough waiting. 

Ciao

[Robin_Hiseman]

The steepest canted fairway in my experience is the 17th at Stonehaven Golf Club, south of Aberdeen.  1:6 slope I would guess.

I can't shown the photograph here, but here is a link to a photo of the hole on Flickr.  The 17th green is benched into the hillside directly above the ruined church, with the direction of play coming from the right, perpendicular to the cross slope.  From the tee you basically have to aim somewhere up near the fenceline and hope that it stops somewhere before the bottom of the hill.  Absurd, but fun.

Brian Ewen may have a better photo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pdonald/4899060618/sizes/l/in/photostream/

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

My problem with 18 is that, on the basis of only 4 plays, admittedly, it seems that the prescribed play is to hit into the crap on the right and hope it comes out.

The 18th at West Herts had a very severely canted fairway.  You needed to hit the extreme right edge of the fairway (on a right to left dogleg) to have your ball end up in the left semi.

[Sean_A]

Mark

18 is definitely a fader's hole - no other proper way to play it most of the year.  Mind you, the rough up right isn't bad and is a better spot to miss than left.  I really don't mind this drive because hookers have to re-think what they have been doing all day.  Guys like Ben Stephens probably have fits with #18.  If I recall, you are a hooker as well. 

Doc

But Stonehaven's 17th has space to play way right so it isn't a big issue.   

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

If I recall, you are a hooker as well. 

My personal life is not a proper subject for this site.

I do tend to draw my golf shots, though.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Sean

You're right.  It's not a penal hole, but that wasn't the nature of the enquiry.  

Are we still designing them today is more the point?  I think there is certainly a philosophy to avoid strong cambers or grade them out if encountered.  I'll do it if I can, though just to the point where I can control the slope and use it to the benefit of strategic design.  I'd never eliminate it entirely.  If I've got the space and the desire, a split level fairway can give you so much and help you to drop the elevation in a very short distance, so minimising build up on the low side of the fairway.  There's few things more objectional to the eye than flat, terraced fairways stacked up on a hillside with mounds and 20% slopes between them.

[Sean_A]

Doc

I don't really know if designers are going for the severe slopes these days.  Its probably cheaper in the long run to grade out slopes rather than provide mowed width.  But it would be nice if sometimes (as in the golden age) that the more abrupt approach is utilized.  Split level fairways are also a solution ala 18 at Southerndown, but on the grades we are talking about that could be substantial grade work as well. 

What strikes me as most evident when reading thoughts of modern designers is how the edges of extreme design can be tempered to the point where little remains.  As a for instance, North Beriwck's 16th green, TOC's double greens, TOC's blind bunkers, Prestwick's Alps and Sea Headrig, Dornoch's Foxy...Much can be lost in the extremes these holes feature which helps to set courses apart.

Ciao     

[Ally Mcintosh]

Doc

I don't really know if designers are going for the severe slopes these days.  Its probably cheaper in the long run to grade out slopes rather than provide mowed width.  But it would be nice if sometimes (as in the golden age) that the more abrupt approach is utilized.  Split level fairways are also a solution ala 18 at Southerndown, but on the grades we are talking about that could be substantial grade work as well. 

What strikes me as most evident when reading thoughts of modern designers is how the edges of extreme design can be tempered to the point where little remains.  As a for instance, North Beriwck's 16th green, TOC's double greens, TOC's blind bunkers, Prestwick's Alps and Sea Headrig, Dornoch's Foxy...Much can be lost in the extremes these holes feature which helps to set courses apart.

Ciao     

Sean, there is a point beyond which mowed width gives you no advantage and actually exacerbates the problem by allowing the ball to speed further down a hill / side slope... Once a ball can't stop in a fairway and / or ends up in the same spot each time, it's poor design / routing in my opinion...

But I do agree with your second point about the edges of extreme design sometimes ending up tempered to the point where little remains... I especially like reverse cambered fairways once they are practical and work e.g. Woking 3

[jeffwarne]

They are scarce nowadays because the fairways are mowed so much tighter!

In the old days, a fairway had to be STEEP before a ball would run out of it sideways into the rough.  Example:  the fifth at Merion is a 10% sideslope.  But on today's fairways, anything much over 5-6% is gone.

Another example of modern agronomy not always improving the game

I often feel that longer fairways could be kept firmer (increasing bounce while decreasing roll), be steeper and put thought back in the game.
A flyerish lie would cause better players to learn to control the ball and hit shots based on feel and the lie, not a dialed in yardage.

Imagine that, a feature that helps average players and challenges better players!!!!

[michael damico]

do you think that modern construction capabilities also plays a role in this? "Well, we can do it, and they did it across the street, why not make this more 'playable'"?

[Mac Plumart]

Hmmm...

maybe I like canted fairways or ridges in fairways.

Rivermont's got some...I'm a member.
Dismal's got lots of them...I'm a member.
Ballyneal's got some...I love playing there.
NGLA's got a few...I cherish my opportunities to play there.

I'll stop now...as you get my point.

Perhaps when people get away from the idea that golf is a "fair" sport, we will see these type of features come back.  Cross your fingers, but don't hold your breath.

[David_Tepper]

The Lake Course at the Olympic Club has some noticeably sloped/canted fairways, which is one reason it is not popular with a number of the pros (Jack Nicklaus among them). The fairway on the 17th hole is the most notorious in that regard.

It will be interesting to see how the course plays when the US Open is held there next June.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Indian Canyon has a few of these and it makes for some fun play/interesting lies.

But I suspect they are a thing of the past....sadly!

[Jim Nugent]

The Lake Course at the Olympic Club has some noticeably sloped/canted fairways, which is one reason it is not popular with a number of the pros (Jack Nicklaus among them). The fairway on the 17th hole is the most notorious in that regard.

Isn't #4 pretty extreme, too? 

[David_Tepper]

JIm Nugent -

The Lake Course is well known (and down-graded by some) for the several holes that dog-leg against the slope/cant of the property. Holes #2, #4, #5, #9 and #17 are the biggest offenders in that regard.

You really can appreciate the height of the slope of the property on which the course sits by looking at the course across Lake Merced from the from 14th tee of Harding Park.

DT

[Terry Lavin]

I like it as a quirky feature (primarily on older courses), but agree that it can get out of hand.  I think it's a dosage-related phenomenon.  My Exhibit Number one is the Bayonet course at Fort Ord.  I only played it once, but the cant of the fairways (usually a negative camber), provided the principal defense to the golf course, making it play way longer than its posted yardage.  I don't know if they sent the earthmovers in to alter some of the fairways in the relatively recent renovation, but it wouldn't have been all that bad of an idea.  Olympic, as mentioned, is another course made extra tough because of this feature.

[Jud_T]

Apparently Mike DeVries never got the memo...

[Tom_Doak]

Apparently Mike DeVries never got the memo...

Jud:

That's true, but there are examples at Kingsley Club of both where a canted fairway works great [I'll nominate #15] and where it's a bit too much [say, #7], and everything in between.  Where to draw the line depends on the observer, but I'd guess that when you find people who don't like the course, those steeper fairways are a main reason.

Still, I applaud Mike for NOT re-grading the fairways ... re-grading fairways is the death of minimalism, and should be avoided if at all possible.  I just tend to look for less severe slopes in my own routings.

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