News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hayling Island case study
« on: October 09, 2011, 03:33:58 AM »
I recently did not get an assignment with a club in the south of England called Hayling Island, a very nice and understated Simpson designed links course in low dunes on a coastal island. It has some of the best Simpson greens I have seen, very subtle and beautifully fit in the landscape. For pics of the place see:  http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/England/Hayling/index.html

I decided to put some of the work I did in the last two years I was trying to get the job on this forum for two reasons.

The first reason has to do with sharing and feedback. Since I now am not bound by any client confidentiality, which often is the case when you land an assignment, I can share some of the details of a typical project facing an architect on a classic course with this forum and at the same time get some feedback of this group here on what they like and not like about these plans.

The second reason has to do with credit. I do not mind losing assignments, we live in a competitive world and we are so much the better because of it. However in this specific case I am concerned that some or most of my ideas might be used without the public realizing what the origin of the ideas has been. This has happened to me before on another project in the Netherlands, and I would like to make sure it does not happen again.

So let me start this exercise by putting up an aerial map of the course.



The course is a single loop of 18 holes, it starts by winding its way westward from the clubhouse, and after some detours reaches the most westerly point of the course at hole 13, after which it returns back to the club house in quite a linear fashion. There are a few issues with the routing. First it starts of with a par 3 hole, without any clear need of why its starts of with a par 3. Second the location of the clubhouse, which is relatively new and was built on this new location some years ago, is such that to get to the first tee you have to make quite a detour around hole 18. Third the club has a cramped driving range, a poor putting green and no good short game practice area. Finally and maybe most important, the land on which holes 1,2,17 and 18 lie are some of the least exciting land the club has, whereas more superb land is available further west that currently isn’t used.

Furthermore the current hole 8 has problems in that its green is prone to being very wet given that in lies in a low dune valley. The current green location also makes it difficult to make the next hole, the ninth, a good hole since it blocks the logical valley through which one can play the hole.

Finally the 13th is a famous hole, which has been dumbed down over the years, by making the fairway narrower, removing the large blow-out bunker to the right of the fairway and moving of the tees (see an article about this hole in the last Golf Course Architecture Magazine).

The solution to many of these problems could be achieved with a relatively simple and not to costly rerouting of the course, shown in the routing plan below:



The first step is to try to start and finish the round at the level of the current club house. This is achieved by starting the course at the current second hole, keeping the current first hole as a spare par 3 hole (which is also very useful for maintenance purposes) and as a practice hole. Second holes 17 and 18 are combined into a par 5. This also achieves that the new holes 1 and 18 traverse the less interesting land as quickly as possible with two fairly long par 5 holes.

However we now need two extra holes to get back to 18 holes. Also we need to see if we can solve the problem of holes 8 and 9. This is achieved by abandoning the current hole 8, and creating two new holes in its place, first a par 4 in a natural valley along the edge of the fence surrounding the site playing towards the green of the current par 3 11th hole, followed by a new par 3 playing from a dune, over a valley to another dunes next to the green of the current 8th hole. Both these holes can be constructed with virtually no moving of soil because the land they would lie on is so suitable. This then also enables to play the 9th hole through the logical valley, which now has become possible because the old green of hole 8 isn’t used anymore.

That leaves one extra hole that still would be needed. Here an existing par 3 hole that currently is not in use between holes 14 and 15 comes into play. By reinstating this hole, either played along the line of hole 14 or perpendicular to this direction, which has become available because we have moved the tee shot of hole 9, and we now have space to build new tees on or close to the beginning of the old fairway of hole 9.

Finally we also make changes to hole 13, by widening back the fairway to the right side, drawing players away from the dangerous left side where walking people and parked cars are dangerously close to the current line of play, and by reinstituting the large blow out bunker in the carry.

The old green of hole 18 can be used as a chipping green and in the area between this green and the new 18th green a new putting green can be constructed.

These changes require 3 new greens, a number of new tees and some new fairway areas, so the costs of doing the work are not very large, in my view yielding benefits that outweigh the costs.

Furthermore there are a number of areas where I recommended work to the club:

Restoring the bunkers back to Simpson's style . The bunker style of Tom Simpson is very recognizable (see picture below). This bunker style unfortunately seems to have been lost at Hayling GC sometime after the war (an aerial picture of 1946 in the clubhouse clearly has the Simpson style bunkers still visible), with all the bunkers on the course now being riveted. Bringing back these “lace edged” Simpson bunkers should in my opinion be a high priority of the club since it will both restore an historic element and make your course blend in better with its surroundings and more beautiful.



Create more areas of short grass around greens.  Although the club has some areas with short grass around many greens, there is even more scope to expand these in specific places.

Try to grow more heather. On many of Simpsons courses heather plays a crucial role, both as a hazard and as décor. Having heather at a seaside links course is even more special, with only Ljunghusen in Sweden being another good example of a links course with heather. Although heather will not grow in all areas of the course an effort should be made to establish it around some of the bunkers.

Make the fairways wider at relevant places. One of the clear trademarks of a classic strategic golf course by Simpson are the wide fairways, however on a number of holes the fairway are now cut rather narrow. The effect is to make the course less strategic and more penal, causing the course to be harder and less fun for the average player and more one-dimensional and less interesting for the better player.

Hide the tees better visually in the landscape. On some holes the beautiful green sites are somewhat spoiled by the tees that are behind it. This issue in general can quite easily be improved by camouflaging the tees and their straight lines, in this case for instance by some earth movement and the application of rough sods.

I hope this was somewhat interesting, should you want to download the full resolution version of the rerouting to have a closer look at it and do your own analysis and/or rerouting you can do so at: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10772736/Hayling%20Masterplan%201b.pdf

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2011, 04:04:02 AM »
Very interesting stuff, Frank.

Your solution seems simple and elegant. I am not familiar with the property, but I have one question (and it's fairly nit-picky) regarding your proposal. Why does the proposed new 7th need to have tees stretching so far back? I see there is a driveable par 4 at the 10th, but besides that there is only one sub-400 yard par 4 on the course. Would your new hole work closer to 300 yards so the walk would be less awkward/long?

Thank you for the case-study. It seems there is a lot to be learned from it!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2011, 04:38:36 AM »
Thanks for sharing Frank....

I have not yet seen Hayling Island but enjoyed your post...

One thing - Why are you concerned that some of your ideas may be used? Was another architect awarded the work and did he submit plans at the same time?... Or have the club decided not to appoint an architect and you therefore are concerned that they will carry out in-house bits of work in the future based on your plans?...

Ally

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2011, 04:44:48 AM »
Hi Frank,

I played Hayling Island about 20 years ago and recall being impressed by the course though do not remember much detail. I was wondering what was your thinking behind splitting the 13th fairway?

Jon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2011, 08:52:53 AM »
Great pictures Frank.

What impresses me most is the use of 1 smallish nasty bunker which is to be strategically avoided or taken on----------------------
 as opposed to a many or large areas of sand which never even enter your mind unless/until you've hit an errant shot-and are infiniely easier to recover from and there have NO effect on strategy.

Never understand why courses want to rake and maintain ACRES of mindless sand, which the better player excels at and never gives a second thought  and tortures the higher handicapper,
Besides large bunkers look like Shite
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 05:08:14 PM »
Alex,

very good point, probably the new hole 7 should not be as long as possible, but rather be a risk reward driveable par 4, like it!

Jon,

the 13th currently is a rather penal narrow blind par 4, with OB on the left, which causes many players (esspecially those with a slice) to miss heavily on the right. This area lies about 3-4 meters lower than the fairway and is currently mown as as (semi)rough. I suggested including this area as fairway for hole 7, because it would speed up play, but still leave players with a more difficult and blind shot into the green.

Ally,

the architect who got the mandate applied just before the job was given out, and did not have a developed plan. Rather the club stated in their email to me that he won based on his reputation, and now will be developing his recommendations for the course. You may therefore understand why I am concerned that my ideas might just happen to end up being incorporated in the plan that is going to be drawn up now. If that happens at least now many people will know what the story is.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 03:38:42 AM »
Ally,

the architect who got the mandate applied just before the job was given out, and did not have a developed plan. Rather the club stated in their email to me that he won based on his reputation, and now will be developing his recommendations for the course. You may therefore understand why I am concerned that my ideas might just happen to end up being incorporated in the plan that is going to be drawn up now. If that happens at least now many people will know what the story is.

Thanks for the answer Frank... I can understand your concerns...

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 04:21:13 AM »
Frank

I can understand your eagerness to work on such a lovely course and the willingness to please the client prior to the award of contract is admirable, but why did you put so much work in 'at risk'?  Was it a bid requirement? 

The architect who has been awarded the job is a very safe pair of hands (it's not me I hasten to add) and I am sure that he will be wanting to formulate his own ideas, rather than draft up yours, if that is any consolation.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 07:28:17 AM »
Frank

I can understand your eagerness to work on such a lovely course and the willingness to please the client prior to the award of contract is admirable, but why did you put so much work in 'at risk'?  Was it a bid requirement? 

The architect who has been awarded the job is a very safe pair of hands (it's not me I hasten to add) and I am sure that he will be wanting to formulate his own ideas, rather than draft up yours, if that is any consolation.

Robin,

my experience is it is not unusual for several GCAs to be required to put in a proposal (often quite detailed from a concept point of view) with no or minimal financial compensation so the client can chose one of them to do the work.

Jon

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 07:31:15 AM »
Jon

I know!  Been there.  Done that.  Been thoroughly pissed off as a result!  More than once....
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 07:40:47 AM »
Jon

I know!  Been there.  Done that.  Been thoroughly pissed off as a result!  More than once....

I second that statement!

Frank - it is a much nicer layout than the current one - it flows better and is built to suit the location of the new clubhouse. Also it makes me wonder whether what was the original first hole and I remember a comment that Hayling was almost 8,000 yards at one stage is this correct?

Cheers
Ben

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 12:49:02 PM »
Jon

I know!  Been there.  Done that.  Been thoroughly pissed off as a result!  More than once....

I second that statement!


But what about any times you got the job! Were you still upset?

Jon
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 06:20:11 PM by Jon Wiggett »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2011, 04:37:24 PM »
I have done it a couple of times. Frilford Heath Blue was one I pit a lot of work into but Simon Gidman got that, I will never know if Simon ever saw my plan it ended up remarkably close, but I expect he saw the same things I did. Saltford GC used my rough routing and did not carry on with stage 2, I expect the really sad thing is sometimes these clubs think they have been clever cutting the cord after the routing and dont understand a few pounds more would have gotten them a much better end product.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2011, 06:12:59 AM »
Frank

I can understand your eagerness to work on such a lovely course and the willingness to please the client prior to the award of contract is admirable, but why did you put so much work in 'at risk'?  Was it a bid requirement? 

The architect who has been awarded the job is a very safe pair of hands (it's not me I hasten to add) and I am sure that he will be wanting to formulate his own ideas, rather than draft up yours, if that is any consolation.

Robin,

I had been visiting the course on and of for the last two years, everytime I was in the south of England for my work at Tandridge (I did the same at many other courses). The Hayling secretary had made clear to me that they were not working with another architect. During my previous careers as a strategy consultant and M&A banker I was very used to developing ideas to pitch to clients. Key difference might be that the unwritten rule in those industries is that you give the job to the person who brought you the idea (because if you do not you do not get any new ideas anymore from them in the future).
Funny enough I developed this plan after walking and playing the course, and then doing some routing analysis; all in all it cost me less than 8-10 hours of work, which I think is a pretty good investment. In any case I have used and am using this method succesfully with many clubs I visit, after walking a course I usually rather quickly have a pretty good idea what needs to be done, probably a skill I picked up from my consulting days. I think it has landed me at least 6-8 jobs at similar courses in the last few years.
Unfortunately I did not find out till later that the secretary had been the secretary at Liphook before moving to Hayling, and as such knows the other architect very well (he works at Liphook). Just before the club was to hand out the assignment  the other architect called in to the club to offer his services, and was then chosen by the club. Funny enough the UK references I offered and an offer to come and look at and compare work of myself and the other architect at Tandridige were not followed up on.
Again I do not mind losing in competitive situations, I lost earlier this year to Ken Kearny at Belvoir Park in N. Ireland, and sent him a congratulations email the next day, good for him. But this feels distincly different, and I am quite keen to make sure the club does not use my ideas without me getting credit for them, or at least making sure the golf course architecture world knows.
Of course I hope you are right and the other architect will come up with something completely different, we'll see, as they say the proof is in the pudding....

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2011, 08:40:41 AM »
And you guys thought Investment Bankers were scumbags.  Maybe we should all buy sandals and do a proper sit-in... :-\
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2011, 09:21:55 AM »
Jud,

No Jud, the IB's are scumbags, but they might just not be the only ones  :)
No need for sandals, just bring your golf shoes to have a round at Hayling

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2013, 06:16:40 PM »
Firstly, many thanks to Frank and others for bringing this thread to my attention.

To save continuing to hijack another thread I thought, if anyone is at all interested, I'd reignite this discussion.

I still want to have a proper look at the detailed plans in full but just a few very early thoughts (if you can really call them that, two years down the line):

Having recovered from the mild cardio infarction I suffered at the mere suggestion that Hayling begin with anything other than the current par 3 I managed to compose my thoughts, view the plans from a somewhat less dogmatic position and, having further considered a World without the current 8th hole, began to see sense in it all.

The opening two holes have long been criticised as being comparatively weak. Better then that #2 to lengthened to make a new opening par 5.

The loss of the current #8 would be a shame but, viewed as part of the bigger picture, the idea has much merit. The valley Frank refers to for the new #7 does provide ample opportunity for an excellent natural hole. Furthermore, this rerouting, combined with the inclusion of a new par 3 #8, would allow for some first rate alterations to #9 (currently a hole of debatable merit).

I'll respectfully have to disagree with Frank about any changes to #13. It's a real marmite hole but I for one love it in its current form. It is tight but that's OK with me in this particular instance. Furthermore, I can honestly say I've never known any harm to come to any member of the public that happens to be passing through the OOB to the left of the hole. That would require one hell of a snap hook! The only change I would ever consider making would be to reinstate the famed Widow bunker.

#14A has long been a favourite of mine. Frank's suggestion that it be included as a permanent hole in some form immediately gets my support.

Finally, the possible amalgamation of #17 and #18 works for me. The current #17 I believe to be an excellent hole but #18 is arguable the weakest on the course. In days gone by it was a solid two shotter and the nervous golfer could easily get rather edgy on the tee. Nowadays, with the prevailing wind behind and a firm and fast fairway, it requires little more than a couple of safe flicks.  

 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Andrew Hastie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2013, 03:44:51 PM »
Hi Frank,
Very interesting post! The thing that also caught my attention first was the long walk back on hole 7, a drivable par 4 would be cool. Do you have any photos of the ground that the new hole would be built across?
It must be getting to the point were a tour of your renovated courses in southern England is worth doing?
By the way, what is that across the road, a children's course or something?

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2013, 05:08:22 AM »
Andrew,

The children's course you made reference to is actually, massive bias not withstanding, the greatest little par 3 course on the planet. Seriously though, it's an exceptional little links par 3 course which just so happens to be the venue for my first ever game.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Andrew Hastie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 09:02:56 AM »
Paul,
Sorry to belittle your beloved course! I saw a cool little Children’s course at Gullane last year and the Beachlands course (I believe its called) reminded me of that.


John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 12:27:20 PM »
I missed this the first time it was posted.  A very interesting read and seems some good ideas.

Wondering what work (albeit by someone else) ended up being carried out there (or is set to be done)? 

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2013, 04:12:22 PM »
Paul and Andrew,

thanks for the feedback, I also think the new routing would be an improvement. However I have found that proposing to change the routing of the course to a client is a very hard sell. You can blow up any individual hole and nobody really seems to mind, but you change the routing and you have a full rebellion on hand. The only place where I have been able to get a routing changed was at Hoge Kleij, a Frank Pennink course in the Netherlands, and that was voted 450 for to 400 against in a membership of 1000 !!! Now the routing is in play for a bit over 2 years everybody is happy and agrees it was the right thing to do. The problem is that the average golfer has no idea what the impact and benefits of a routing change can be....

Paul, on hole 13 I was told safety was an issue, and during my visits I noticed that about 60-70% of all players ended up in de (semi) rough on the right. But I could very well live with keeping what is there now.

Andrew, you are right 7 could also be an exciting driveable par 4. With regards to the South England tour you have a point, Tandridge will be completely done end of September, Broadstone will continue to progress every year (this year probably only hole 11), Blackmoor had its centenairy this year but we will most likely start a bunker restoration next year, and Swinley is always a great place to go and play. Have some further prospects in the south that I cannot mention yet, but that would complete a nice tour.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2013, 04:20:25 PM »
Wondering what work (albeit by someone else) ended up being carried out there (or is set to be done)? 

John,

The club has a newsletter, other than green extensions and irrigation work the only real changes I was able to track down was bunker work in early 2012:

http://www.haylinggolf.co.uk/members_area/club_news/spring_2012_newsletter_2

Not exactly the original lace edged Simpson bunkers that were on the course originally  :)

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hayling Island case study
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 09:49:58 AM »
Frank,

The lack of acceptance of your plans does not shock me at all. It's that sort of place. I confess that my knee jerk reaction was, well, 'protective.' But further thought allowed me to see the merits of your plans. The loss of the current #8 would be a real shame but, again, the greater good would be well served.

I do have a point for you to consider, and it's contentious even in my own mind: can you see merit in adding a bunker along the right hand side of the 5th green? Part of me thinks such a move would be sacrilege as a mishit stroke would simply sit in the sand rather than run off. However, something about it appeals and, for that reason, I'd be interested in your opinion.

Andrew,

Absolutely no need to apologise. Given that it's where I (and many other kids) first played, in that respect, it's very much a children's course!    
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich