Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 18 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

I saw some before and after pictures of the 14th once, pretty impressive tree removal. The depth of trees which are left and right used to continue all the way round the back of the green.

Padraig, do u have those pictures to post?

Fantastic view off the back of the green now!

[Matthew Sander]

I saw some before and after pictures of the 14th once, pretty impressive tree removal. The depth of trees which are left and right used to continue all the way round the back of the green.

What a shame that must have been, to have that top of the world view blocked by trees...

[George Freeman]

Great hole and very aeshtically pleasing.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but challenging that back pin location is very dangerous.  Over the green is pretty much dead from what I recall due to a steep fall-off and ferns/brush to contend with.

[Padraig Dooley]

I saw some before and after pictures of the 14th once, pretty impressive tree removal. The depth of trees which are left and right used to continue all the way round the back of the green.

Padraig, do u have those pictures to post?

Fantastic view off the back of the green now!

Mark

I'm not at home at the moment, would have to check but I don't think I have.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 15: Par 4, 327 Yards



I am likely in the minority, but this was my favorite hole on the course - another sleeper as it is not one of the 'famous' holes at Crystal Downs.

The ideal tee shot will carry a hill approximately 225 yards from the tee.  As the hole plays into the wind, this may not be an option for many.  A bit of visual deception here as the bunkers are actually a very long way from the tee (the one on the right is about 260, the one on the left is greenside(!)) and are not in play for most.

Shorter hitters have the choice of hitting their tee shots to the bottom of the hill, leaving a 125 yard but blind approach, or laying back to a flat spot leaving a visual of the pin but a 150 yard approach.

This tee shot has something to keep all golfers -- short-knockers or bombers, high-cappers or scratch -- interested.




From the start of the fairway.  The fairway is one of the most rolling on the course.  Definitely grounds for golf.




The view from a layed-up tee shot.  Pin is in view but this is a difficult, uphill and into-the-wind 150 yard approach.




The view from a tee shot that fails to crest the hill.  125 yards and blind.

Also notice the 'peak' in the fairway.  This is SO COOL.  'Fairness' out the window, tee shots hit dead in the middle of the fairway but just carrying to the top of the hill are subject to a rub of the green bounce which could knock them 50 yards forward, or sideways into the rough/bunker.  I wonder if this was natural or done on purpose or just evolved over time?  Tom_Doak, what say you?




From 100 yards out after an ideal tee shot.




This green is tiny and subtly shaped like an upside-down saucer.  Shots landing near the edge of the green will be repelled.

[Mark Saltzman]

Bump.

I guess I really am alone in having 15 as my favorite hole at Crystal Downs

Hole 16 coming tonight.

[George Freeman]

Mark - I loved this hole.  The look of the tee is a little ambiguous or hard to picture from what I remember.  But it's short enough that you can't hit a few different clubs and be OK.  I recall the green complex being really cool, and maybe a little pushed up from its surrounds?

I really like being back in this corner of the property.  It almost has a "cozy" feel to it.  Great hole.

Thanks for the tour Mark!

[Jason Topp]

Mark:

I love your discussion of the bump in the fairway.  We have one of those on the 12th hole of my course and it really does pose some interesting problems.  This picture is not the best but gives you the idea:



If the ball rolls right, it leaves this blind approach from an awkward lie:



If it rolls left, you get a visible approach from a better angle.  This picture is further forward from where I hit it but gives the idea:

[George Freeman]

My pictures of 15:

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark:

I love your discussion of the bump in the fairway.  We have one of those on the 12th hole of my course and it really does pose some interesting problems.  This picture is not the best but gives you the idea:



If the ball rolls right, it leaves this blind approach from an awkward lie:



If it rolls left, you get a visible approach from a better angle.  This picture is further forward from where I hit it but gives the idea:

Jason,

thanks for posting the photos.  I love features like these.  They are so simple and have such a dramatic impact on how a hole plays.  Those guys that thinking that hitting it down the middle should always be followed by a good result might not like it, but who cares!

A similar type feature is a single 'bump' in the centre of a green.  The best example I can think of (don't know if you've played it) is the 10th at Old Town.  It is a circular green, open in front, but it has one hump in the middle of the green.  Perhaps the most interesting part of it is that if you're going to miss, you have to miss on the short side!  Trying to traverse across the green from the wide side of the green is a really difficult up-and-down rollercoaster whereas missing on the short side is a pitch into the slope of the green.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 16: Par 5, 588 Yards



A very long par-5 that moves gently to the left.  It plays uphill for the first 400 yards (!) before cresting a hill and the final 200 yards play downhill. 

In my mind the hole is very plain until you get to the green, which is very sloping.  The first two shots are very wide and require well-struck shots, especially since this holes generally plays into the wind.  I know Tom Doak has defended the hole in the past -- I believe the logic was the length of the hole adds pressure to the golfer to hit very good shots.  He knows that any mis-hit means he probably won't reach the green in regulation and as a result, this is no simple hole.

There is not a lot happening on the tee shot. It is plenty wide.  I don't think anyone can cut the corner at all.  The objective is just to hit a solid tee shot in the fairway.  Anything less than that and reaching this green in 3 is very difficult.




Like the tee shot, there is not a lot happening on the second shot.  One is faced with a blind/uphill shot over the crest of the hill.  One of those "I guess I'll aim somewhere up there" type shots.




From just over 200 yards out the green starts to come into view.  This is the minimum objective for the first two shots.




From 150 yards out the green is fully in view.




From 100 yards out.  I loved the bunkering on this hole.  The green slopes severely from back-left to front-right and the depth of the bunkers reflect this. The bunkers on the left have almost no lip allowing players who miss on the wrong side the opportunity to perhaps putt out of the bunkers.  Players that miss right and will be pitching back into the slope of the green have to contend with a very high lip.




This picture from over the green shows the severity of the slope toward the front-right portion of the green.  Missing long is very bad here.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 17: Par 4, 311 Yards



It is appropriate to quote the course guide in its entirety for this hole:

Three hundred and eleven of the most frightening yards in golf.  A 200 yard tee shot leave a 9 iron or wedge.  A 180 yard tee shot leaves an unplayable lie.  A 215 yard tee shot leaves a blind, uphill, difficult pitch to the green.  Now, if the wind is helping, you could drive the green.  The green side bunkers mean bogie or worse, and you don't want to putt off the front of this green, because it won't stop rolling for 50 yards.

YIKES.

The tee shot has so many options.  Most players will aim for the tiny landing area 200 yards off the tee.  Those unable to make the 190 yard carry are forced to lay-up to the (not seen) fairway short of the hill or be faced with an impossible uphill stance from rough.  More aggressive players can try for a slightly longer tee ball up the left, leaving a 50-100 semi-blind pitch up the hill.  The most aggressive of players can try to challenge the right side of the severely canted fairway and leave a chip shot up to the green.







From just short of the fairway the blind, lower portion of the fairway can be seen.




The approach from the lower fairway. Hardly appealing.




The approach from the upper portion of the fairway.  Note the severe slope of the fairway making it very difficult to have a tee shot stay in this portion of the fairway.




After a perfect tee shot.  Based on the pattern of divots many tee shots end-up here.  But, if they crest the hill...




Tee shots will end-up here.  I'm fairly certain that qualifies as a skyline green.




Agressive (and perfectly placed) tee shots will end here.  Still very intimidating.




From right of the green side bunkers the tilt of the green from back-right to front-left is obvious.

[JC Jones]

One of the coolest green sites on the course (which says a lot!) and, in my opinion, one of the worst holes I've played.  This hole gets a free pass simply because of the course it is a part of and the designer(s) who built it.

The tee-shot is one dimensional leaving the golfer with the requirement of executing the perfect shot to a perfect distance or else be completely SOL.  Worse yet, it is often into the wind so the golfer is forced to execute a 200yard shot, all carry +/- 10 yards with a Driver, 3W or 5W.  There is no room for error right or left and due to the sloping nature of the hole, most shots will feed down to the valley left of #11.

I just don't see where the golfer has any options and I'm not sure, other than novelty, whether the hole is any fun to play.

[Mark Saltzman]

The tee-shot is one dimensional leaving the golfer with the requirement of executing the perfect shot to a perfect distance or else be completely SOL. 

JC,

There is only one choice for the golfer that has a max carry of 200 yards or less, I agree.  But for longer hitters wouldn't you agree that there are three choices - (1) the 200 yard shot to the plateau, (2) the 230 yard shot to the left portion of the fairway, and (3) all you got up the right to try to reach the green.

Each of the choices requires a perfect shot, but I think they are choices nonetheless.

[JC Jones]

Given that the choices require nothing short of perfection, I'm not sure there is a choice.  I hit the ball as long as anyone off the tee and have never had a thought to go for the green (see comment above regarding wind).  Your second choice is worse than the first one because one doesn't have a better shot at the green given the blind nature and awkward distance and that it requires an even long club off the tee.

If this hole is a Nicklaus or Fazio design it would be universally panned.

[Sean Leary]

 I thought this was supposed to be one of the world's great short 4's? Looks like a bad mountain hole in pics (I haven't been there).

[Peter Pallotta]

The style and the setting of the 14th is easily my favorite on the back nine. There are more challenging holes and probably "better" golf holes in that stretch but none as charming as this one. Beautiful.

+ 1.  A pefect Par 3.

Peter

(Mark - sorry to jump back a hole, but was just catching up.)

[BCrosby]

Agreed about the 14th. But am I the only one who thinks the back nine is overall much less interesting architecturally than the front?

The day I played CD (I have only played it once), I played the back first. At the turn, I was having trouble figuring out the reasons for CD's elevated reputation.

Then I played the front. The daring, imaginative holes you find there had no comparables on the back. The back is a solid set of holes to be sure, but not in the same league. The MacKenzie that is in your face on 1 through 9, seems much less present on the back.

What am I missing?

Bob

[Jordan Wall]

Can someone explain 17 to me?

Having never played or seen the course, 17 looks like quite a mess of a golf hole.  I've heard it praised quite often, and surely pictures never do any hole justice, but in the same respect it looks like the fairway is almost impossible to hold and the options off the tee are very limited.  Is this the case?

[JC Jones]

Jordon,

On a perfectly calm day with the course playing soft 17 fairway can be hit.  With wind in your face blowing the ball left and the fairway running left it is very difficult to hit the fairway (even if you do it isn't like you are rewarded).

Bob,

I find the back 9 to be equally as interesting as the front.  In fact, I'd argue that with the exception of 17, the back has a better collection of holes.  While it may not have the superstars like 6,7 and 8, it only has one dud while the front 9 has a couple.

[Mark Saltzman]

Jordon,

On a perfectly calm day with the course playing soft 17 fairway can be hit.  With wind in your face blowing the ball left and the fairway running left it is very difficult to hit the fairway (even if you do it isn't like you are rewarded).

Jason,

I didn't have a problem with 17 -- in fact, I loved it.  Maybe it's because the fairways were softer than usual, or the wind was blowing in just the right direction or maybe it was because I hit my tee shot exactly where I wanted.  From the tee it was obvious that the hole demanded not much less than perfect execution, but I was fine with that.

You don't see much benefit to being farther up and on the left, but I did.  To that front pin it is a lot easier (for me at least) to hit a little LW into the wind than a 9-iron.  After a good 3-wood I had 55 yards left up the hill. 

Bob,

I find the back 9 to be equally as interesting as the front.  In fact, I'd argue that with the exception of 17, the back has a better collection of holes.  While it may not have the superstars like 6,7 and 8, it only has one dud while the front 9 has a couple.

I think the stretch of 13-15 is phenomenal, almost on par with any stretch on the front nine. 

But holes 12, 16 and 18?  I won't go as far as to say they are duds, but I have a little of trouble seeing them as anything more than just OK.

[JC Jones]

Mark,

Do you think 17 fits in the with style of the rest of the course?

I agree on 18.  I think if you moved the teeing area down the hill and closer to #10 green it would be a much better hole.  The greensite is fantastic.

I disagree on 12 and 16 and I'll take them over 2,3,4 and 5 any day of the week.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Do you think 17 fits in the with style of the rest of the course?

To the extent that much of the golf course is a 'second-shot' course -- sure, why not.  I agree that none of the other tee shots are any where near as demanding as the tee shot on 17.  The approach certainly fits with the rest of the course.

I agree on 18.  I think if you moved the teeing area down the hill and closer to #10 green it would be a much better hole.  The greensite is fantastic.

Isn't this where the back tee currently is?

I disagree on 12 and 16 and I'll take them over 2,3,4 and 5 any day of the week.

I didn't see a heckuva lot going on with 2 and 3 either.  I see them as just OK too.  The land on 4 is quite interesting.  5 is really good, what's not to like?

[George Freeman]

A detailed yardage book page of #17 would be very helpful for people to understand the hole.  How far is it to get to the very first patch of fairway?  Can't be much more than 150-65 yards, severely downhill.  Does that leave you with a very difficult shot (even though you'd most likely have less than 150 yards to the green)?  Yes, but the option is there.

In my mind, the key to this hole not being "unplayable" or too tough is that fact that it is only 300 yards, with the tee box well above the landing area.  In my one play, in what I remember was a small wind into our face, I think I hit 6 iron to the second fairway tier, and I am not a long hitter.  For fun, I teed up another ball, pulled the driver out, and put my ball about three paces short of the left greenside bunker.  Once again, I'm not an overly long player.  And both of those shots were from the tips (311 yards) and not the white tees (300 yards).

Additionally, there is more landing room left than what Mark's pictures show.

On the other hand, maybe what people are having a very hard time agreeing with is that this hole, even though it is only 300 yards, is probably not a par 3 1/2.  Hell, it might even be a par 4 1/2.  I've heard a lot of people scream on this site that sometimes par 4s can be prudently played by playing to get home in three.  For an extremely conservative player, this par 4 might be a good example of that.

JC - one of the worst holes you have ever played?  I find that a bit ridiculous, even coming from you!   

I'll post some pictures soon.

[JC Jones]

Jorge,

How would you play it in 3 shots?  Hit PW off the tee to the bottom fairway?  Then you are hitting over a wall, Big Break style.

The problem with the driver play is that if you are 5 yards right or left of the green you are in lost-ball hay (which is a problem all over the course).  And don't down play your towering 300yd butter-cut driver 

The statement isn't ridiculous.  Certainly I've played some bad holes on munis and other dog tracks that were bad because they are boring and those are in the ranking of worst holes.  But, 17 at CD is in the category of holes with no options on land that shouldn't have a golf hole on it.