Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 18 Posted

[Tim Bert]

Sean - there are a good number of trees on the course that are beautiful but that have certainly grown to sizes larger than intended when the course was originally designed. That being said the one on 7 works for me because the hole is so short and you have a very good option to lay back in the top fairway with a wedge in your hand where the tree becomes a non issue.

In my opinion, the course does not play as narrow as it looks but it does play narrower than it should given the room out there. We had some of this discussion earlier in the tread. Even mowing the first cut down a little or thinning it out would help dramatically but it would probably make Mr Doak's dues more expensive.

[ed_getka]

Mark

Thanks for this tour.  It would seem every Michigander and his third cousin has seen this place except me.  

Is anybody else getting the impression that these lone trees are used a bit too much?  I looked at the opening six and wondered, but the 7th definitely pushed me over the edge.  I really don't understand the right tree.  Why is it there - in the middle of a bunker which I wonder why is there as well? Some of the details of this course have me quite perplexed.  

The green looks to be a stunner.  I think I can see how one can get from front right to the back tier, but man I wouldn't want that putt as it must be a very low success rate having to hit hard over the right bunker shoulder to hold the line and hope for turn off that left mid-green wing.  Does anybody think this may be a better hole if it were shorter - more tempting to go for it?

Does the course play as narrow as it looks?  

Ciao

Sean,
   I suppose the lone trees are personal taste. I happen to like them and the only ones that actually come into play are the right one on #7 and possibly the one on #5 if you tend to hit a low hook off the tee.
   As for the tree in the bunker on #7 I never even noticed it before as it is completely out of play. There is also one on #15 to the right of the green, which could come into play I suppose, but you would have to be pretty far off line considering the short to mid iron you would be coming in with. There may be some other holes with trees in bunkers. I'm not sure what the point of them is.
    The course does not play as narrow as it looks unless they have narrowed it in the last 2 years.
     To putt from the front right of #7 you do not skirt the bunker, you take it towards the slope on the front left of the green and it swings it around. If you are in the back half of the front right of the green you wouldn't be able to get to the back of the green because the angle back towards the helping slope would slow your putt too much before turning it towards the back of the green.
      It is possible to 2putt to anywhere on the green, but you would have to be a magician to make the 2nd putt a tap in on a regular basis when you have to turn the corner.

[Bill_McBride]

Does the course play as narrow as it looks? 

Ciao

I didn't find the course to play narrow at all.   There is lots of width, just some obvious places to avoid, and even then lots of room to tack around.   

[JC Jones]

Mark

Thanks for this tour.  It would seem every Michigander and his third cousin has seen this place except me. 

Is anybody else getting the impression that these lone trees are used a bit too much?  I looked at the opening six and wondered, but the 7th definitely pushed me over the edge.  I really don't understand the right tree.  Why is it there - in the middle of a bunker which I wonder why is there as well? Some of the details of this course have me quite perplexed. 

The green looks to be a stunner.  I think I can see how one can get from front right to the back tier, but man I wouldn't want that putt as it must be a very low success rate having to hit hard over the right bunker shoulder to hold the line and hope for turn off that left mid-green wing.  Does anybody think this may be a better hole if it were shorter - more tempting to go for it?

Does the course play as narrow as it looks? 

Ciao

Maybe if you hadn't jumped ship on Michigan you'd have played it by now too

I don't think it plays narrow as, generally, I haven't found the rough to be overly burdensome.  The only places it plays narrow are where the hay comes into play, particularly on the tee shots on #'s 4, 5, 6, and 8.

[michael damico]

Does the course play as narrow as it looks? 

Ciao

I didn't find the course to play narrow at all.   There is lots of width, just some obvious places to avoid, and even then lots of room to tack around.   

agreed, completely

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 8: Par 5, 550 Yards



Peter Pallotta's earlier thread dedicated to this hole: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47764.0.html


The 8th at Crystal Downs is a very difficult golf hole.  But, it's not overly long... There is no water, no out-of-bounds, plenty of width... yet every shot is very demanding. 


The tee shot is not difficult, but the golfer desperately wants as short a club as possible into the green, adding pressure to hitting a good and solid drive on the correct line.  The line is dependant on the player's length off the tee.  The 'bail-out' is left, leaving a longer approach, but the bomber cannot play this way as he will run through the fairway.  Aggressive players will play slightly left of the tree, knowing that a pushed tee shot behind the tree will likely mean bogey at best.  Can real bombers hit it over the tree?

The Tee Shot.




The DZ - one of the most undulating I have ever seen.  Like many of the other holes at Crystal Downs, the DZ slopes gently back toward the tee, making the hole play longer.






Looking back from the DZ to the tee - the slope back toward the tee is obvious, but it is also clear that the tee shot played uphill (more length).  I did not get that sense on the tee.




From the crest of the hill, the second shot plays downhill to another part of the fairway that is very undulating and sloped toward the player.  From here, the astute player will notice the severe depression short-left of the green and will attempt to play his second shot to the right portion of the fairway.  The fairway, however, cants significantly to the left and placing a shot on the right-side of the fairway requires a high level of precision.




The 8th fairway from the 2nd tee - the undulation and cant of the fairway are obvious in this picture.





The approach to the 8th green requires nothing less than perfection.  Two very well-struck shots will leave a player with a wedge in hand.  A miss on either of the first two shots leaves a mid-iron into the green and nearly an impossible shot.

The approach is straight uphill, making the approach from the 150 yard mark "one of the longest in golf" - Mr. Mueller. 





A very significant swale short of the green may be the feature that makes the hole.  Everything that is done on this hole is done so that one can have as short a club as possible into the green so that they can fly this swale and stay on the green.




The green is very small with little internal contouring and a general tilt from back-to-front and left-to-right.




The safe player that bails-out long of the green is left not only with a shot that is straight downhill, but it is a shot from a significant falloff from the back portion of the green.






A look back down the fairway.

[Tom_Doak]

This is one of my favorite holes in all of golf.  And bunkers have nothing at all to do with the strategy; it's all about the undulations of the fairway.

On the tee shot, you've got to hit it solidly [and VERY solidly if you're playing into the wind] to get over the wildly undulating bowl that forms the first part of the fairway.  If you don't do that, you will have a hard time getting to the green in three unless you can play a precise hybrid or fairway wood from a potentially very funky lie.  Sometimes the best thing to do after a mediocre tee shot is to play the hole as a four-shotter.

On the second shot, assuming you're okay off the tee, there is a great advantage to placing your shot along the right side of the fairway, where you can find a flatter stance and have less hill to climb with the third shot.  If you're sloppy and hit it left, the combination of the wind, the elevation change, the very small green and the severe dip in front make it VERY difficult for even a long-time member to get the right club in hand to hit and hold the green ... the equation is just much easier from the right side, and you've got a little bit of the hill on the left of the green to use as a backstop, as well.

I might also mention that the big tree to the right in the first landing area is a telling hazard ... it enforces the dogleg in a way no bunker could.  It might be TOO severe for some tastes in that if you block your tee shot right behind it you are now playing a par-6, but hey, you don't have to hit it right, do you?

[Bill_McBride]

In my one play of the hole, I learned the hard way that you DO NOT want to pull your tee shot into the deep fescue left.   And follow that with another pull into more fescue.    This is one par 5 where the onservative play is best. 

[Mike Viscusi]

Sorry guys to jump back a hole but can some of the CD-experts chime in a little more about the 7th hole?  It's a fascinating hole, but I'm wondering about the lower fairway...specifically is that a realistic play off the tee?  From what I can see in the photos, it appears to be rough between the upper and lower fairways - is the slope steep enough for balls to run through the rough and reach the lower fairway or do you have to carry it there?  Seems like a pretty small (and blind) target to have to fly to with a driver (or 3 wood).  The risk just seems way too high and the reward seems almost non-existent since it leaves an awkward distance and a blind shot.

Do you think the original intent of the lower fairway was not to be driven to (could it even be reached in the 30's from the tee?) but rather as an alternate route for the short or crooked hitter who couldn't clear the far hill/bunkers?

[Sean Leary]

In pics, 8 reminds me a little bit of 17 at Prairie Dunes, although the fairway looks more undulating and the green less. Are they similar at all?

[Tom_Doak]

Sorry guys to jump back a hole but can some of the CD-experts chime in a little more about the 7th hole?  It's a fascinating hole, but I'm wondering about the lower fairway...specifically is that a realistic play off the tee?  From what I can see in the photos, it appears to be rough between the upper and lower fairways - is the slope steep enough for balls to run through the rough and reach the lower fairway or do you have to carry it there?  Seems like a pretty small (and blind) target to have to fly to with a driver (or 3 wood).  The risk just seems way too high and the reward seems almost non-existent since it leaves an awkward distance and a blind shot.

Do you think the original intent of the lower fairway was not to be driven to (could it even be reached in the 30's from the tee?) but rather as an alternate route for the short or crooked hitter who couldn't clear the far hill/bunkers?

Mike:

In the old days, before the rough was irrigated, I would occasionally try to play my tee shot down below by hitting it on the downslope and letting it bounce down.  Nowadays, that ball would likely get caught up in a hanging lie in the rough.  [Plus, the trees on either side of the approach are bigger over time, and more likely to block out a second shot from too far left or right down at the bottom; plus, they formalized the low spot to the left in the valley into a wetland.]  So, I always lay back to the top of the plateau off the tee now.

In the 1930's the whole course was gang-mowed at the same height, so this area was just "through the green" like everything else.  I don't think it was planned specifically as a lay-up area for second shots.

For years, I've thought the hole would be better with short grass around the green instead of rough.  It's an awkward approach to the front hole locations now, because you have to carry rough right up to the edge of the green, and then stop short of the bunker in the ridge; and I know that wasn't the original intent.  However, if the club DID mow it short around the green, some of the bombers would be much more tempted to try and drive the green -- which could be cool, and they'd probably find out it wasn't a good idea, but which would also slow down play on the front nine if there were a bunch of guys who waited for the green to clear before they hooked it into trouble!

[Tom ORourke]

This makes back to back holes without any fairway bunkers. When you have interesting terrain, and greens that work better from different angles it is nice to be able to play from the fairway. Not every fairway needs bunkers left and right. The cant of the fairways loks like a great test for golfers of all handicaps.

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike,
Where are some of the other greens built after CD that are of a similar nature?

DBS,

Although CD's 7th is the poster child for boomerangs, MacK was certainly prone to exaggerated shapes in his conceptual drawings and frequently execution.  ANGC #9 is a prime example.  UM's 6th is an effective boomerang and the 14th there less so, but also has boomerang characteristics.  At Redlands CC in S. Cal., Norman Macbeth has a marginal one on the 17th (it doesn't shoot balls around as well as it should) -- MacK advised him there to some extent prior to CD.  The double greens for El Boqueron have boomerang features that are usable but probably for using the other hole on the green. 

Cheers,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Sorry guys to jump back a hole but can some of the CD-experts chime in a little more about the 7th hole?  It's a fascinating hole, but I'm wondering about the lower fairway...specifically is that a realistic play off the tee?  From what I can see in the photos, it appears to be rough between the upper and lower fairways - is the slope steep enough for balls to run through the rough and reach the lower fairway or do you have to carry it there?  Seems like a pretty small (and blind) target to have to fly to with a driver (or 3 wood).  The risk just seems way too high and the reward seems almost non-existent since it leaves an awkward distance and a blind shot.

Do you think the original intent of the lower fairway was not to be driven to (could it even be reached in the 30's from the tee?) but rather as an alternate route for the short or crooked hitter who couldn't clear the far hill/bunkers?

Mike,

Many choose to go down the hill to the lower fairway and a well-struck ball should make its way down, although a marginal one would be stuck halfway with a very awkward stance (don't ask me how I know!).  Last year's club champ prefers the lower fairway when the pin is back and the upper fairway when it is in front -- I think it has to do with the length of the shot and not the blindness for him -- he is a very good player and obviously is comfortable with the results.

When I was a kid, I would bang a 3-wood down the bottom and would often be on the upslope just past the fairway (even in the right bunker sometimes) but I prefer to stay up top and have a full iron into the green (6i to SW, depending on wind, lie, and location).  It is a really fun shot and you can often hit it close.

I agree with Tom that there should be more fairway cut around the green and it would give more options to all players, not just the big hitters.

Mike

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

As my partner fpr the day when I played Crystal has chimed in, I cannot resist but to partake some more....
Wow...what a cool looking fiarway number 8 is..so reminiscent of the links course like St Georges and Princes..it is visually stunning and also somehwat intimidating at first sight.
Once the ball is on the fariway though it does not appear that the humps and hollows become too much of a factor and myself and partner noth had flat lies to play our second shots from.

The green sit is awesome though, so many cool pin placements some that you do not really know the severity of until you get up to the green.
There is not much room to the right of the green at all, and any pin that appears to be on the right side...stay left of 

The distance evaluation is hard hitting ones third into the green as there is not any true definition behind the green to base judgement upon.

As Mike D pointed out great view from here back across the front nine .

[ed_getka]

In pics, 8 reminds me a little bit of 17 at Prairie Dunes, although the fairway looks more undulating and the green less. Are they similar at all?

Sean,
   There is more undulation in the fairway at CD. I would say you can swing a little more comfortably off the tee at CD. The second shot at CD is much harder to put in position. The third shot into each is probably equally demanding, but the penalty for missing the green at CD is more exacting I would say.

[ed_getka]

It is amusing to think back to the first time I played at CD. When I returned home I posted here that I didn't understand what all the fuss about #8 was. I just felt like it was a fairly straightforward hole that just rollercoastered up to the green.
    I have subsequently learned. The first time around I hit a decent drive, a decent second that was in the right side of the fairway and had a mid-iron in. In future rounds I learned how hard it is to be on the right side of the fairway with the second shot, how hard the recovery shot is when you miss the green short, had bad it is to be above the pin, etc.
    I love the challenge of this hole.

[JC Jones]

A couple things about the 8th:

1.  It doesn't dog-leg as much as it appears from the tee and you actually should play your drive further left than one would think.  Each time I've played it I've tried to "cut the corner" and there is no corner to cut.  One day I'll learn.

2.  Playing to the green from the rough is very difficult as a well struck shot is likely to run through the green.

[JC Jones]

This makes back to back holes without any fairway bunkers. When you have interesting terrain, and greens that work better from different angles it is nice to be able to play from the fairway. Not every fairway needs bunkers left and right. The cant of the fairways loks like a great test for golfers of all handicaps.

Perhaps Tom or Mike can clarify but I was under the impression that some of the movement in the fairway in #8 was manufactured as a result of there having been a road there (on the back side of the ridge) when the course was built.

Can either one of you (Tom or Mike) confirm?

[JC Jones]

It is amusing to think back to the first time I played at CD. When I returned home I posted here that I didn't understand what all the fuss about #8 was. I just felt like it was a fairly straightforward hole that just rollercoastered up to the green.
    I have subsequently learned. The first time around I hit a decent drive, a decent second that was in the right side of the fairway and had a mid-iron in. In future rounds I learned how hard it is to be on the right side of the fairway with the second shot, how hard the recovery shot is when you miss the green short, had bad it is to be above the pin, etc.
    I love the challenge of this hole.

I've got you one better, Ed.  I admit that until I played CD this past summer, I didn't fully understand the greatness of CD as much as I thought I did or as much as I wanted to.

[Tom_Doak]

Perhaps Tom or Mike can clarify but I was under the impression that some of the movement in the fairway in #8 was manufactured as a result of there having been a road there (on the back side of the ridge) when the course was built.

Can either one of you (Tom or Mike) confirm?

JC:  The old road has an effect on #6, #7 and #8.

My understanding is that the original nine-hole course that preceded MacKenzie's visit occupied the site of the present 10th & 18th, the practice fairway and chipping green, and holes 1 through 4.  [Part of #4 green plus the chipping green are said to be remnants of the original course.]  The reason the course ended along that line is that there was a road just beyond, which ran across the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th fairways.  One of the main reasons it's so obvious even today, is that all of those big individual trees which come into play on those holes [the trees either side of #6 landing area, and the tree to the right on #8] were planted along the road many years before the golf course was built.

The road went right across #6 fairway at the top of the hill, through a dip in the start of #7 fairway that's pretty obvious once you are looking for it, and then across #8 fairway at the crest -- I think it actually turned there and went to the left and below the tree and then tied back into Sutter Road that runs up alongside the back nine.  So, if you can hit it to the very crest of the hill on the left, there's a little elevated flat spot there that looks artificial ... which was an old tee at the far end of the original nine-hole course.

[Ben Voelker]

Sad to say, but this photo tour is the first exposure I have had to Crystal Downs.

My immediate impression is how great the strategy seems to be with a completely uncluttered look.  Bunkers seem few and far between and seem to fit better there than any course I have ever seen, in person or in photos.

All I can say is thank you for the tour.  I will continue following along with great interest as you get to the back nine.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 9: Par 3, 175 Yards




The 9th hole at Crystal Downs plays significantly uphill.  Most players will (or should) choose to land the ball short of the green and have it bounce on.  Misses long and left are very bad.




There is a false-front on the green.  I am sure that chip shots from over the green (and even bad putts from above the hole) are susceptible.  It is easy for what looks like 3 from the tee to turn into 5 or more.




The green slopes severely back to front and its main feature is a ledge just a few feet from the back edge.  The ledge will help to stop well struck shots from bouncing over the green, but it also means that any soul unlucky enough to be long of it, has almost no chance at recovery.




From over the green by the clubhouse.




The view from the 9th green, much like the view from the 2nd tee at Ballyneal, rivals the very best views in golf (ocean views included).

[Morgan Clawson]

Nice hole.  Pretty unusual to see a par 3 with that much elevation change - upward.  Is that a 2 club hill?

That bunker shot is a little intimidating. Hate to hit that one thin!

Great front 9 Mark - thanks...

[Mark Saltzman]

Nice hole.  Pretty unusual to see a par 3 with that much elevation change - upward.  Is that a 2 club hill?

That bunker shot is a little intimidating. Hate to hit that one thin!

Great front 9 Mark - thanks...

Morgan, I'll take credit for the pictures, but I think you have to give the credit for the front to messieurs MacKenzie and Maxwell 

I think it plays a bit less than 2 clubs uphill, especially given the firm conditions, and that there is no way one wants to be long.  My guess is add one club, come up a bit short and try to make 3.