Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 18 Posted

[Alex Miller]

Wait, which is it? I thought Pasa was supposed to be the longest 6500 yard course out there!

I'd imagine Crystal is the tougher test thanks to green speeds and slopes, not that Pasa's greens are tame .

I'm not a huge proponent of the hole by hole threads that pit one course vs. another, but those two are definitely brothers in many respects I believe. Heck, from the pictures I can't think of a hole that compares to #1 at Crystal Downs as closely as #1 at Pasa.

Also, I love the look of the horizon-ish back portion of the green on #4.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

This tee shot is very demanding.
The obvious fade off the tee is certainly the shot, but the bunker on the inside corner and the proxmity of the trees on that right side, more often than not result in the three wood being used.
Centre of the fairway here is fine and dandy, one of the more benign greens on the course providing you are not coming in from the high right side, then it becomes a much smaller target.
So if you hit the faded tee shoe and the ball does not take the slope back into the middle of the fairway, you are left with a much tougher approach.

Back right pin placement is terrific...mean but terrific.

But now Crystal Downs steps up a notch......moving on

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 5: Par 4, 353 Yards




The 5th hole at Crystal Downs is probably the most photographed and well-known hole on the course.  As you approach the 4th green and see the 5th hole, it is impossible not to think, "wow, I'm actually here!".  But, for all of the pictures I had seen of the 5th, I had no idea what the hole looked like beyond the tee shot.  I actually believed the hole dog-legged right (it doesn't!).

The tee shot is to a split-fairway which is divided by the 'Three Sisters' bunkers.  The route left of the bunkers will only be taken by those that are unable to carry the tree to reach the right fairway.  The ideal line for most will be over the left edge of the tree, though longer-hitters will want to play farther to the left, almost directly over the centreline bunkers.






The lower fairway. The green is located over the bunker that is benched into the hill.  As the pictures show, this is not a good spot to approach the green from. I suspect that most that play from here do so by accident.






Once past the tree on the right, one can see the slope of the hogback fairway.




Beyond the hogback portion of the fairway, the fairway slopes significantly from left-to-right.  Looking back toward the tee one can see not only the significant cant, but also the wild undulations.  I suspect many balls end-up where mine did, just a few feet into the right rough.





The approach from 125 yards.  The green is protected by a single bunker short-right of the green.




From 50 yards out.




The green slopes significantly from back-to-front and left-to-right.  Shots landing on the green have been known to trickle back and right into the grass by the bunkers, or on occasion, all the way into the bunkers.  Yet another difficult green at Crystal Downs.

There is also a small ridge near the back of the green making shots that are just a bit long that much more difficult.





What's that? Hidden greenside bunkers! The green is protected by three bunkers, not one.  Recovery from these bunkers should not be so difficult as they are played into the slope of the green.





One last look back.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

one of the worlds classic short par fours
Although the tee shot does give you some strategic options, the only smart play is over the centre bunkers into the middle of the fairway.
Through the fiarway to the right is a mass of native grasses which should not be explored, and I would imagine when this course was playing firm and fast, that area recieved many unwanted visitors.
As it plays now, the fiarway is green and forgiving making the tee shot a little easier and less intimidating.
Super green complex, with some very tricky undulations, misses should favour the lefts ide....back right pin...awesome.

[Mark Saltzman]

Michael,

I noted that it is better to miss right than left because of the left-to-right slope of the green.  What am I missing?

[Carl Rogers]

If the course did not have mowing lines (everything at fairway height), the ability to line up tee shots might be more diifficult and the ball might well run into some really funky spots.

[Michael George]

I have often looked at pictures of this hole and wondered 2 things.  I have not played the course so I don't know if they are reasonable questions.

1.  Why there is rough surrounding the 3 middle bunkers.  It seems to me that with a hog's back that architecturally, you would not want the security of a ball running only into the rough rather than the bunkers (ie. that a missed shot is intended to run out, not stop in rough).  Is this accurate or does it play differently than it looks.  As a comparison, the hog's backs at Pacific Dunes and Old MacDonald seem to run forever if you miss on the wrong side.

2.  Is the tree a good feature on the hole?  Should it be pruned ?  Has it gotten too large?  How does this tree compare to the tree on #17 at Cypress Point?

[Michael George]

The discussion re: the 3rd hole being a Redan reminds me of a different thread recently concerning most annoying sayings re: golf course architecture - - - Here is one of mine ---- calling every par 3 with a green with a slanted right to left green and a front bunker a "Redan" hole.  It seems like every course that I play today has a member that wants to call a par 3 a "Redan".  I am not an expert at what is a "Redan" and what is not technically a "Redan", but the name is definitely being over-used.

Question for Tom Doak - while at Bandon Dunes, I read that both #12 at Old MacDonald and #17 at Pacific Dunes were "Redan" holes, but they did not seem too similar.  I understand that #12 is a true "Redan".  Is the characterization of #17 as a "Redan" correct or do you feel otherwise?  Just wondering for my personal education.  Thanks.

[Bill_McBride]

Nice tour, Mark.  I've only played Crystal Downs once, but memories are vivid.

I definitely have to disagree your calling the 5th green "tame," and "sloping gently."   The day I played, the pin was pretty far left and I was tickled to hit the blind 8-iron shot just left of the pin.  I walked up imagining my ball somewhere in birdie range.  Imagine my chagrin to find my ball down at the bottom of the green, in the froghair just above the bunkers.   My ball mark was five feet short of just left of the pin.

I think there's a lot of left to right slope!

[Peter Pallotta]

Just a note on "expectations".  Besides imagining that I would have fun on a wonderful old golf course, I had few specifics and few expectations in mind -- but the 5th was one of them.  Surprisingly or not, I found that I was struck by how much I liked the opening holes, and the combination of the fine Par 3 3rd and fine par 4 4th in particular, and that I was then let down a little by the 5th (after the initial 'ah' of seeing the three sisters).  It's not a long hole, and the straight line over the middle bunker seems right away to be a good choice...and, well, there you have it. There was a 'busy-ness' in look that just didn't appeal to me as much as it must to others. 

Peter

[Andy Troeger]

The 5th green is not tame. I hit a wedge from just into the right rough that admittedly had a little bit of cut spin on it that landed in the middle of the green, went straight right, and ended up in a right bunker. Its a pretty big slope. But I don't remember many (any?) tame greens at CD.

Its a cool hole--I just didn't know where I was going the first time around.

[Tom_Doak]

I have often looked at pictures of this hole and wondered 2 things.  I have not played the course so I don't know if they are reasonable questions.

1.  Why there is rough surrounding the 3 middle bunkers.  It seems to me that with a hog's back that architecturally, you would not want the security of a ball running only into the rough rather than the bunkers (ie. that a missed shot is intended to run out, not stop in rough).  Is this accurate or does it play differently than it looks.  As a comparison, the hog's backs at Pacific Dunes and Old MacDonald seem to run forever if you miss on the wrong side.

2.  Is the tree a good feature on the hole?  Should it be pruned ?  Has it gotten too large?  How does this tree compare to the tree on #17 at Cypress Point?

Michael:

The mowing line looks awkward, but the rough exists because some of that slope is too steep to mow on an everyday basis.  If they mowed it all as fairway, eventually someone would wind up with his mower upside down in one of the three sisters.

I've been asked several times by the current green chairman whether the tree should stay.  I hope to God it never goes away.  MacKenzie left it there in 1929 when it was 20 feet tall, and presumably he had some vision.  Good players can carry over the top of the tree easily; only the seniors are deterred by it, and I think the fact that its mass takes the OB driveway on the right pretty much out of play more than makes up for its harrassment of a few senior players ... they can always move to the senior tee if they don't want to tangle with it.

Note, however, that this is one of those holes where there is just NO GOOD PLACE for a forward tee.  The spot they have to play from now is pretty awful, they have to play way out to the right and it leaves them a longer approach than what I normally have.

I always tell people on the fifth tee that the first four holes were pretty good, but the next five are like none other they've ever seen before.  And it's true!

[Ken Fry]

Tom,

You mention in an earlier post there are three tees that are not part of the original course.   #3 back tee and I assume #18 back tee.  What  are the three "new" tees?

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

You mention in an earlier post there are three tees that are not part of the original course.   #3 back tee and I assume #18 back tee.  What  are the three "new" tees?

Ken

Ken:

#3, #18 [which is a much better hole from that tee, added in the 50's or 60's], and a new back tee on #13 which was added 4-5 years ago.  I don't know exactly who decided to add the tee on 13, or why ... I noticed it the day Fred and I played with Ian Baker-Finch, and I said, well if we're not playing it, who's going to?

[Mark Saltzman]

I definitely have to disagree your calling the 5th green "tame," and "sloping gently."   

I think there's a lot of left to right slope!

The 5th green is not tame.

Its a pretty big slope. But I don't remember many (any?) tame greens at CD.

Understood.  Will change my hole description.

[john_stiles]

I like the tree on the 5th, and the 6th as well.  I could only hug a few trees and the 5th is one of those.

While on trees,  I say let the light shine on the home course tree hugger !  Let the sun shine be shaded and pass on the chain saw brother.

The  5th green is very difficult unless you hit that delicate approach spot on.  From the right rough, with no spin,  the best shot might be to land short left and let the steep slope ease it on the green.  I agree with Panhandle Bill that the 5th can be very difficult.

Ross left a few trees much taller than 20 feet as well.  The ODGs sometimes did that.  

[Dale Jackson]

I am intrigued by the split fairway, why does it exist if the is no reason to go left, regardless of handicap or driving ability?  I love well executed split fairway holes, ones that offer a real choice to the player.  Mark, Tom, anyone know the history on this one?

[JC Jones]

I think the hole would be better if the area around the bunker on the left up and through the tree on the left by the green were mowed at fairway height.  I'm not sure the hay adds anything other than time searching for balls of those who take a more direct route.

The tough part about this hole is that you are often hitting from an uneven stance with the ball below your feet to a green that slopes left to right.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark...just that most people hate bunkers that is all...nothing more sinister
I actually agree for good players the bunkers right may well be the best miss....although no misses at all would be ideal !!!!

I am in total agremment with the estemmed Mr Doak...we are about to embark into the realms of the twilight zone..the next best stretch of holes I have evr played...from here to the house architectural perfection, perhaps with the disclaimer...current green speeds excluded.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mark:

Great work on the tour, and I agree with Mac that these things should be done at your own pace. 

Anyone know what the carry over the tree is on 5 to reach the right side of the fairway?

Sven

[Ken Fry]

Tom,

You mention in an earlier post there are three tees that are not part of the original course.   #3 back tee and I assume #18 back tee.  What  are the three "new" tees?

Ken

Ken:

#3, #18 [which is a much better hole from that tee, added in the 50's or 60's], and a new back tee on #13 which was added 4-5 years ago.  I don't know exactly who decided to add the tee on 13, or why ... I noticed it the day Fred and I played with Ian Baker-Finch, and I said, well if we're not playing it, who's going to?

#3 is fine, I've only played #18 from that back tee which is a great look at that hole, but lengthen #13??  Like that hole isn't hard enough?  Is it possible that decision was made to just get an overall higher yardage number on the scorecard?

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Great work on the tour, and I agree with Mac that these things should be done at your own pace. 

Anyone know what the carry over the tree is on 5 to reach the right side of the fairway?

Sven

It's about 155-160 yards from the middle of the men's tee to reach the start of the fairway on top of the ridge.  That's why there is some fairway below ... not everyone can carry it that far.

[Dustin Ferrell]

No. 5 was, for me during my one round there, where the course really got interesting.  I personally enjoy some blind shots and hitting my tee ball over the hump to leave a little wedge into the green was a lot of fun.  Wasn't sure where it would end up, but followed my hosts recommendation and was rewarded.  Also, I typically only see normal high shots coming into greens when I think of my approach, but this hole just begged me to hit a little bump and run into the green and was rewarded w a short birdie putt that I missed.

Also...I love that this hole is short and still so challenging. The group I played w/ that day were all sub 6 handicaps and I'm pretty sure there were a couple doubles on this hole after finding greenside bunkers or missing the green.  Truly a testament to short, partially blind, well guarded par 4s being some of the most fun and rewarding golf holes.  Have to be precise on this hole!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Dustin, that is one of the things that I love about Crytsal Downs.
Although you may only be hitting some sort of a wedge in to about 8 of the holes, the penalty for misjudgment is so punishing...but in a fair way...no gimmicks, no man made hazards just great design.
Even hitting the green may not end up what you wanted...but I dont want to get ahead here our host on this thread is doing a marvelous job.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 6: Par 4, 384 Yards




The 6th at Crystal Downs would be a standout on almost any other golf course.  But, stand on the 6th tee and you have the all-world fifth on your left and a sneak-peek at the kidney-shaped green at the 7th.  The fact that the sixth receives recognition with such exceptional holes on either side of it speaks to its own quality.


The tee shot at the 6th requires a carry to crest a hill that will leave a clear view of the green.  The carry is some 220 yards from the back tees and 190 yards from the members tees. In clear view beyond the 'Scabs' on the right the green lay tempting the golfer to play farther to the right off the tee than is prudent.  The Line of Charm is in effect and the player wants to aim either over the Scabs or over the large tree guarding the fairway, but as the visitor guide emphatically warns, "don't even think about that route."  


The Tee Shot.




The Line of Charm.




The Scabs as seen from the 7th fairway.





The view from the bottom of the hill should a player fail to make the carry.  The fact that there are very few divots in this area suggests that either (1) the carry is not a problem for most golfers who play at Crystal Downs, or (2) there are just very few rounds played at Crystal Downs.





I am sure I will be corrected, but the approach to the green is fairly straightforward.  The approach will often be played from a hanging lie over the mound that is seen on the left.  This view is from 150 yards out from the right side of the fairway.  It is where you will end up if you try to carry the tree and fail (I know from experience.).





The view from 120 yards out.  Shots successfully played down the centre of the fairway should collect to this area.





A look back down the fairway from the front of the green.





The 6th green as seen from the 4th fairway.





The green is another very interesting one.  Two separate bowls are formed in the green.  Hit your approach shot in the bowl and you have a great chance at 3.  From outside the bowl, a 2-putt is very difficult.

Short of green.




Green from left.




Green from right.




Green from right with contrast dialled-up to emphasize the contours.