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Niall C

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2011, 01:49:20 PM »
at this rate the thread will be 30 pages in before we get to the 18th. Not a gripe........well actually it is. I love scrolling through a photo tour just to get a feel for the course rather than analysing every shot, particularly as you guys talk about playing from the fairway and I know fine well I'll be upto my knees in bundi.

Look forward to seeing the rest of the course.

Niall

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2011, 02:08:17 PM »
at this rate the thread will be 30 pages in before we get to the 18th. Not a gripe........well actually it is. I love scrolling through a photo tour just to get a feel for the course rather than analysing every shot, particularly as you guys talk about playing from the fairway and I know fine well I'll be upto my knees in bundi.

Look forward to seeing the rest of the course.

Niall

Niall,

I understand what you're saying... you're in the same boat as Frank M.  I find if you've played a course, the blow-by-blow analysis is more interesting.  If you haven't the photos and maybe some hole descriptions are best.

After I've finished the holes on this thread (I know, it may be a while from now....sorry), I will post a new thread with just the photos so one can look through the entire course without getting bogged down in the nitty gritty of each hole.

Michael Moore

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2011, 02:34:28 PM »
Mark -

Did you really think the entryway, with double flora, stonework, hedges, and a divided road was understated? It looks sort of ostentatious to me.

What is the member's clubhouse? Is there a plain old clubhouse as well?

Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2011, 02:38:48 PM »
Mark -

Did you really think the entryway, with double flora, stonework, hedges, and a divided road was understated? It looks sort of ostentatious to me.



Yes.  Driving down Crystal Rd(?) it is really, really easy to miss this turn-off.  It's just sort of tucked-away.  If you're supposed to know it's there, you'll see it.  If you're not, you'll drive right on by.

And there is no gates, no guardhouse, just two posts that look a little overgrown - that's how you know you're at Crystal Downs.  In my mind, that is understated.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2011, 05:04:12 PM »
What is the member's clubhouse? Is there a plain old clubhouse as well?


There is a clubhouse that sits behind a smaller building closer to the first tee that has Fred Muller's golf shop in front and a small dining area in the back.   Neither building is remotely ostentatious.  Great place to spend a day.

JC Jones

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2011, 06:00:52 PM »
There is nothing ostentatious about Crystal Downs.  It is pure, understated class.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 2 Posted
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2011, 06:49:52 PM »
Hole 3: Par 3, 191 Yards



There is a short trek from the second green up to the back tee on number 3, which is located just steps from the Club's grass parking lot.

The shot is played downhill to a green that sits on an angle to the tee.  What makes the hole particularly tricky is that it plays with a left-to-right wind that is largely blocked-out by the trees surrounding the tee.  The combination of downhill, angled green and a difficult to feel crosswind make the third green a very elusive target.


The third as viewed from the back tee:





From the white tee:




The bunker short-right of the green, on first viewing, looks oddly floating and out-of-place.  However, given the wind, I suspect that many reasonably well-struck shots end up smack in that bunker.  I know mine did.

Also of note are the back bunkers.  They are among the most interesting I have seen as they seem to mesh perfectly with the hill/trees over the green.




The back bunkers:





The green slopes generally from back-right to front-left making a miss in the first back bunker very bad, while misses in the front bunkers can be recovered from. 

The green from left.





The green as seen from the fourth tee:


Will Lozier

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2011, 06:55:19 PM »
Mark,

Have you heard this called a Redan?  Seems to have the necessary playing characteristics albeit toned down.  

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 10:37:52 AM by Will Lozier »

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2011, 09:19:58 PM »
I have not played the course, but I like the deception presented in your wonderful photos.

The green looks like it slopes significantly from front to back from the tee box. But, your photos from behind the green disprove this.

Maybe it's the road rising up the hill and/or the way the hole seems to run into the woods that gives that illusion.

The bunker that looks like it is formed by the erosion of the hill is genius. 

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2011, 10:52:04 PM »
A beautiful par three, and Mark is right, the wind is often a fooler here.  You might guess it's most likely left-to-right, but given that the prevailing wind is out of the southwest, it is usually hurting the player a lot more than they think.

The green is really special, with perhaps the most potential pin locations on the entire course.  Looking at it from the tee, it has a false front on the right half, rising up to a plateau atop a knoll on the back right.  A shallow shelf runs from the back center all the way to the far left side, with a lower collection bowl in the front left of the green just behind the big bunkers.  This leaves a valley that rises uphill and narrows from the front center of the green to the back center.

With the mystery of the wind, the change in elevation, and the need to figure out the kind of bounce and roll your ball will take assuming it hits the green, this tee shot tests your ability to choose the right club and commit to your shot.  Bail out of it and the wind can take it all the way to the hillside on the right - or beyond.

Fun stuff.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2011, 11:05:07 PM »
I love the comments that say #2 and #3 are not strong holes!   There's not a weak hole on this course. 

Frank M

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted New
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2011, 02:47:14 AM »
I have to say, I really don't get why some say 3 is not a strong hole. From the pictures it looks very solid.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:35:15 PM by Frank M »

John Shimp

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2011, 08:52:08 AM »
What kind of club is Crystal Downs?  The course looks on the strong/difficult side for a summer, casual, drive in a cart and drink
type of place.  Does it have a strong golfer membership orientation at all?  How playable is it if you move way forward on the tees?
Some of the green descriptions and the craftiness that seems required makes it sound real tough for a chop to make bogey. Not sure if I might be way off base?

In NC where I live there are clearly mountain clubs that have really neat and fun golf courses but they were never set up to be long and strong and then there are those capable of being that (eg Grandfather).

Photos look wonderful. I'll say again that I love the way the fescue and bunkers interact and the way the bunkers sit into the ground.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2011, 08:59:44 AM »
I have to agree with Bill..calling holes 1-3 weak does not resonate with me at all.
Especially this third hole, which I think ia s super three par, especially from that back tee.
Demanding tee shot with punishment short, long left and right...a demading putting surface, wonderfully placed bunkers...difficult green to get up and dpwn on if the green is missed, wherever the pin may be......what more can a three par offer?

Multiple pin placements available to the greenskeeper, but front left is a doozie!!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2011, 09:06:46 AM »
Mark,

Have you heard this called a Redan?  Seem to have the necessary playing characteristics albeit toned down. 

Cheers

It's not a Redan.  The green does tilt hard from right to left, but it is pretty much perpendicular to the line of play, not at 45 degrees to the line of flight.

Actually, I've always thought this reminded me a bit of other MacKenzie holes which seem loosely based on the Eden.  The back tee was not original to the golf course [it's one of only three tees which aren't original] -- MacKenzie and Maxwell's hole was from the middle tee, about 165 yards, with trouble short and long.

The tilt of the green is much more prominent than most folks realize.  To be below the hole, you have to be left of it; if you take the opening of the green at the right, it's almost always a very difficult two-putt.  [A good bunker player would rather be in one of the front greenside bunkers than 30 feet right of the flag.]  When I've got guests, as we walk over to #4 tee I tell them to look at the green from there, so they will appreciate the slope.  From that angle it looks almost as steep as #1 green!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2011, 09:11:29 AM »
Tom, totally agree, when the pin is at my "favourite" front left location that front bunker is the perfect "miss"...way better than being even 30 feet long and right.

Will Lozier

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2011, 10:52:58 AM »
Tom,

I trust your opinion on all things architecture beyond any...but as a math teacher, judging from the overhead satellite view, #3 green is set almost exactly set at a 45 degree angle to the line of play, perhaps 55-60 - unless the back tee is well left of the original.  I have not played CD and #3 may not play like I see it, but the angle of the green seems to be simple geometry.

Cheers

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2011, 11:12:28 AM »
What kind of club is Crystal Downs?  The course looks on the strong/difficult side for a summer, casual, drive in a cart and drink
type of place.  Does it have a strong golfer membership orientation at all?  How playable is it if you move way forward on the tees?
Some of the green descriptions and the craftiness that seems required makes it sound real tough for a chop to make bogey. Not sure if I might be way off base?

It's essentially a private, family summer golf club.  It is as difficult a golf course as I've played, but only 6500 from the tips and 6300 from the white tees.  And it isn't difficult for the sake of being difficult - it's tough if you make nonchalant decisions and play with reckless abandon.  If you take in each situation and think creatively, you can get around just fine.  Members here range in handicap from +1 to 36, but those handicaps travel well, as play at Crystal Downs teaches you to be a creative player with an eye for strategy and a sound short game. 

Members know where not to go, and they avoid those places like the hazards that they are (whether or not they fit the USGA definition of a "hazard").  Note my post on the severity of the first green, and how being above the hole there makes a two putt unlikely, but doable.  Members know the places to miss and as a result, it doesn't play nearly as difficult for them on the scorecard as it does someone playing for the first time.  Local knowledge is a big deal here, and the golf course takes a lifetime to fully figure out.

That's what makes it so much fun, whether you're a +1 or a 36.  Not everyone is able to hit it 300 yards down the middle, but everyone should be able to think.  Golf at the Downs is an engaging experience.  And that's why you'll see a cocky, long-ball college player walk away with an 87, while the thoughtful 30 handicapper can have a career round.

Doug Sobieski

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2011, 11:15:09 AM »
Will:

My take is that Tom was referring to the "fall line" tilt of the green rather than the orientation of the axis of the green relative to the line of play from the tee. The tilt and axis are not aligned.

Regards,

Doug

Peter Pallotta

Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »
John S - I can't offer much but just one pov.  When i played there (my one time), my host was kind enough to give me a full tour, not only of the course but of the surrounding area and its history.  If memory serves, the whole tract of land on the lakes was purchased by the Congregationalists to serve as a summer retreat for members/teachers, and much of the land was 'communal'.  It felt to me that these origins/this history was somehow still manifest/still had influence at the course.  Very peaceful. 

Peter

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2011, 05:44:34 PM »
Hole 4: Par 4, 409 Yards




The tee shot at the 4th is best played over the bunker, skirting the tree line.  Tee shots that appear to be down the centre may run into the left rough depending on the length of the tee ball and the kick off the fairway which slopes from right-to-left.






Much like the fairway at the 1st, the 4th fairway is gently rippling and sloped back towards the tee, increasing the effective yardage of the hole.  The right-to-left cant of the fairway is obvious in this picture.




Looking back down the fairway toward the tee, one can see the more severe land movement that begins about 250 yards off the tee.  Perhaps not in contemplation when Crystal Downs was built, now long hitters are able to land on a downslope and find a speed-slot if they are able to carry their tee ball 250 yards up the hill and have it properly fade around the corner.




The approach to the green is fairly straightforward with bunkers long-right and short-left.  The left part of the green is protected by a small valley will catch shots that are just a bit short.





The valley short-left of the green.





The 4th green as seen from the 6th hole.





A look back down the 4th fairway from the 5th tee.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2011, 11:29:47 PM »
Pete Dye told me many years ago that it was very hard to build a dogleg hole where you played downhill or sidehill off the tee, and then uphill on the second shot.  This is the rare exception to the rule -- it works because of the bunker on the inside corner and then the trees along the high side preventing you from playing UP off the tee and then down to the green.

Speaking of canted fairways, here's a great one.  Once you carry the fairway bunker everything is sloping away to the left ... if you don't hit a fade off the tee, you have to aim along the right edge of the clearing to stay in the fairway.

Brent Carlson

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2011, 11:58:27 PM »
On #3, I also noticed how many pin positions are available.  What a fun but tough hole.

Tom,

What other two tees aren't original?  I'm guessing the way back tee on 13 is one.  

Also noticeable is that the course could be lengthened through additional back tees on many holes, not that CD would ever do that.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2011, 12:02:48 AM »
On #3, I also noticed how many pin positions are available.  What a fun but tough hole.

Tom,

What other two tees aren't original?  I'm guessing the way back tee on 13 is one.  

Also noticeable is that the course could be lengthened through additional back tees on many holes, not that CD would ever do that.

Brent,

I'd guess 13 and 18 back tees.

Running quickly through the holes I can't think of many places where length could be added easily.  Where were you thinking?

1 - if you head into the parking lot.
3 - if you head further into the parking lot.
10 - if you knock down the clubhouse  :)
11 - probably
12 - would require some tree removal
15 - would require some tree removal
17 - would require some tree removal

Brent Carlson

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2011, 12:29:15 AM »
On #3, I also noticed how many pin positions are available.  What a fun but tough hole.

Tom,

What other two tees aren't original?  I'm guessing the way back tee on 13 is one.  

Also noticeable is that the course could be lengthened through additional back tees on many holes, not that CD would ever do that.

Brent,

I'd guess 13 and 18 back tees.

Running quickly through the holes I can't think of many places where length could be added easily.  Where were you thinking?

1 - if you head into the parking lot.
3 - if you head further into the parking lot.
10 - if you knock down the clubhouse  :)
11 - probably
12 - would require some tree removal
15 - would require some tree removal
17 - would require some tree removal

Mark,

Was thinking: 

2,6,7,11(trees),12(trees),13(trees),15(trees), 16(trees), 17(trees)

I have done this exercise before with OH south and U Mich GC, and could hardly come up with additional length, thus I say there are quite a few holes where it could be added, especially for a classic course.  Overall I do not think it's necessary as the course is great as is.  And like you mentioned before, CD is the longest 6500 yard course I've ever played, especially with the wind blowing.