Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 18 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

I had the very distinct privilege of visiting Crystal Downs, a mecca for students of golf course architecture.  To date, there has not been a complete photo tour.  As a one-time visitor I am utterly incapable of identifying all, or even many, of the facets and intricacies of each hole.  But, I am selfish and want to learn from this knowledgable group all of the things that I have missed.  I will post the tour hole-by-hole and hope that there will be some interesting and educational commentary.


Flag with member's clubhouse in background:








First, a couple of teaser photos, the first an overview of the front 9 from the first tee, the second from the 9th green.





Based on my one and only play, here are a few things that I noted:

1) Crystal Downs may be the longest 6500 yard golf course in the world.  I believe this is because many of the landing areas are sloped back towards the tee, minimizing roll.

2) The greens are among the best set I have ever seen.  While several are amazingly wild and undulating (7 and 13), it is their variety in size, shape and slope that make them so interesting.  

3) Local knowledge is extremely important.  There are places off the tee, on the approach and on the green that one simply cannot hit the ball at Crystal Downs.  

4) The bunkering at CD is unlike any I have ever seen.  In many cases bunkers seem to flow naturally out of the base of trees (hole 15) or from the woods (hole 3, 4) or in the fescue (hole 12).

5) False-fronts.  There are a few of them and they are nasty.  The false-front on 8 can have the ball roll back 50 yards into the fairway.  The false-front on 10 has the ball roll not straight back, but back and to the right dead behind the front-right bunker.  The false-front on 17 leaves an unbelievably difficult pitch.  

6) The stretch of holes from 5-8 may be the best I have ever played.  Also, individual holes like 1, 13, 15 and 17 are exceptional.  I was underwhelmed by holes 2, 10, 12, 16 and 18.  I am certain that my one play failed to reveal their greatness and this is part of the reason I started this thread.

7) This is not about the golf course, but as been mentioned many times before, once inside the gates one is treated like a member.  Truly exceptional staff and a wonderful atmosphere.



The understated entrance at Crystal Downs







Scorecard Information







Routing

[Brent Carlson]

Mark,

Looks like you had a great day to experience Crystal Downs.  It's truly a special place.  I'm also interested in the comments of those who have played CD multiple times.

Do you feel the green speed is appropriate for the slopes?

While 2,10,12,16,18 are not the best holes on the course, I really enjoyed features on each.  They fit nicely into the routing.  

Once again, thanks for these well done tours.  

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 1: Par 4, 460 Yards



As a first-time visitor, standing on the first tee at Crystal Downs is both exhilarating and nerve-wracking.  The entire front-nine is clearly laid out in front of you. 

Playing your first round, you probably know two things.  First, stay below the hole.  Second, to stay below the hole, keep it in the short grass.  With that knowledge in mind, you must know hit your first shot of the day into the prevailing wind, to a narrowish fairway some 50 feet below the teeing ground.  This is truly a half-par hole to the plus side.

The tee shot:






Walking down the gently rippling first fairway, one does not really get the true sense of the fantastic land movement that awaits the golfer on later holes.   Only a 5-foot dip in the fairway some 125 yards in the green gives any clue, but only a player familiar with CD knows what lay ahead.




The approach to the first green is not easy.  The green is protected by three bunkers benched into a hill long and right of the green.  The left side of the green is protected by a drop-off some 5-feet in depth.




This picture is taken from the 2nd fairway.  Interestingly I noted that this was by far the best angle from which to approach the green.  I seriously doubt anyone would hit their tee shot here on purpose, but would be pleasantly surprised after they did.





From just short-left of the green the drastically back-to-front nature of the green is obvious.  I also believe this is the best place to miss (or perhaps even aim) on the approach to the first.   





A picture of the green from the left does not do it justice:





The 1st green from the 8th fairway shows the drop-off to the left of the first green. 





Shots missed to the right deal not only with bunkering, but more importantly with a green that slopes severely away.  As Mr. Muller, Head Golf Professional at Crystal Downs notes, "a miss to the left is a bogie, a miss to the right is a disaster." (!!)







A look back down the first hole.

[Matthew Sander]

If I'm seeing your pics accurately, it seems the approach can lull the player into missing left. The bunkers and rough right look like they need to be avoided at all costs, but if you favor the left too much it seems you'll have a severely uphill chip/pitch and may not be able to see the green at all...

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Looks like you had a great day to experience Crystal Downs.  It's truly a special place.  I'm also interested in the comments of those who have played CD multiple times.

Do you feel the green speed is appropriate for the slopes?

While 2,6,12,16,18 are not the best holes on the course, I really enjoyed features on each.  They fit nicely into the routing. 

Once again, thanks for these well done tours. 

Brent,

RE the green speeds.  I really believe it comes down to what the membership likes.  I don't know exactly how fast they keep the greens throughout the year, but if they're the same as when I played, there are some putts which are utterly impossible.  As has been discussed on here before, some people believe every putt/chip should be possible to hit into a 3-foot circle.  Others think that number is 10 feet.  Others, like Mr. Doak, think it can be much larger than that.  If the membership accepts that shots hit in the wrong place will likely mean a double bogie then I suppose it's fine. 

Based on my one play, I would probably prefer the greens a bit slower.  Put me somewhere between the 3-foot group and the 10-foot group. 


RE the 'lesser' holes.  Interesting that you put 6 in the group of lesser holes, I really liked it.  To me the hole that had the least redeeming qualities was 12 and as such I am very interested to learn more about it.  It just seemed so strange that I had to walk such a long distance to play what seemed like such an ordinary hole.  18 probably suffers because it follows 17 and because the expectations are set so high for the finishing hole on such a great golf course.

[Jim Colton]

Mark,

One of the highlights these days of tuning into GCA is seeing what photo thread tour you might be starting next.  What a year.

How many greens did you putt off of?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

One of the highlights these days of tuning into GCA is seeing what photo thread tour you might be starting next.  What a year.

How many greens did you putt off of?

Thanks, Jim.  It has been a great year.

I putted off of 2 and I chipped over 5, both of which still had the dew on the green.  I was the first one out, playing on my own at one of the great golf courses of the world.  Truly a special experience.

[Alex Miller]

Anyone who's played it care to share their opinion of the mow lines?


I've seen many pictures and it always seems that while a great course, it could be improved with different areas mown down. For instance #1 seems like the fairway could be wider, even connecting to #2, and the area short left of the green could be a very effective penalty as a mowed area as well.

Maybe I'm off base, but that's my take away from photos I've seen.  


Mark, thanks for ALL of your photo tours.

[Mark Saltzman]

Alex,

I wondered this too.  Approaching the green from the right, closer to that fairway bunker, would be amazing.  Not only does the front of the green open up from that angle, but the bunkers protecting the green feel like they'd be more in play.

[Brent Carlson]

Brent,

RE the green speeds.  I really believe it comes down to what the membership likes.  I don't know exactly how fast they keep the greens throughout the year, but if they're the same as when I played, there are some putts which are utterly impossible.  As has been discussed on here before, some people believe every putt/chip should be possible to hit into a 3-foot circle.  Others think that number is 10 feet.  Others, like Mr. Doak, think it can be much larger than that.  If the membership accepts that shots hit in the wrong place will likely mean a double bogie then I suppose it's fine. 

Based on my one play, I would probably prefer the greens a bit slower.  Put me somewhere between the 3-foot group and the 10-foot group. 


RE the 'lesser' holes.  Interesting that you put 6 in the group of lesser holes, I really liked it.  To me the hole that had the least redeeming qualities was 12 and as such I am very interested to learn more about it.  It just seemed so strange that I had to walk such a long distance to play what seemed like such an ordinary hole.  18 probably suffers because it follows 17 and because the expectations are set so high for the finishing hole on such a great golf course.
[/quote]

Typo - 6 Is one of the strongest holes on the course IMO.  I'll correct.

#12 was interesting to me because of the front to back slope of the green, testing the golfer's skill in landing the ball short.

[Phil McDade]

This fairway width looks relatively narrow; the width of the rough toward the native grasses looks quite wide.

Can anyone discuss why this fairway shouldn't be mown closer -- much closer -- to the native grasses?

[RJ_Daley]

Phil, I guess the above comment is the answer... cause that's the way the membership likes it. 

I did happen to hit a huge slice off the first and ended up just on the #2 FW side of the bunker.   A nice place to come in from, as Mark says. 

I only played CD once a decade ago, yet it is one of the most lasting and vivid memories in my aging cache.

I thought 16 was relatively straight forward par 5.  But, a playing companion dunked his approach from about 165, so that spiced it up a bit. 

I thought I heard they may have softened up the slope off the front of the green on 11 a few years back.  Is that so?

6-7-8 and 13-14- under appreciated 15  were my favorite runs on the course.  Real Maxwell rolls on 6, reminds me of 8 green at Wild Horse.

It was a stout walk with several hills through the course.  But a very exciting walk.... 

[JC Jones]

I do not think that the current maintenance at CD fits the architecture of the golf course. 

The architecture and the golf course, however, are ridiculously good.

[Frank M]

Crystal Downs is tops on my list of must play.

[RSLivingston_III]

I do not think that the current maintenance at CD fits the architecture of the golf course. 

The architecture and the golf course, however, are ridiculously good.

Is this your way of getting Tom Doak to comment?

[Tom_Doak]

Ralph:

You were right on time!

In general, I agree with JC, if he meant to say that the first cut of rough is too thick and green, and the greens are a bit too fast for everyday play.  The problem is, the turf is so pure that it's hard to fault what they're doing, even if the course was more fun to play ten years ago.


Mark:

I don't understand why you'd want to play the approach from #1 from further right ... you must be a fader.  The middle of the fairway gives you a better angle to play into the slope of the green.  But, you only want to be playing for the front edge at the first, anyway.

[John Kirk]

I've got a story.

I was there with my friend John Vander Borght, who hit a 3-iron into that green that landed about two-thirds of the way back on the right side.  The pin was front left.  The ball started trickling down.  30 seconds later it was right next to the hole.  Welcome to Crystal Downs!  Birdie.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mark

Thanks for the photo tour - I hope to see CD in person one-day to see the Maxwell / Mackenzie mix. Am very interested in your photos / thread.

Much obliged.

[Cristian]

Ralph:

You were right on time!

In general, I agree with JC, if he meant to say that the first cut of rough is too thick and green, and the greens are a bit too fast for everyday play.  The problem is, the turf is so pure that it's hard to fault what they're doing, even if the course was more fun to play ten years ago.


Mark:

I don't understand why you'd want to play the approach from #1 from further right ... you must be a fader.  The middle of the fairway gives you a better angle to play into the slope of the green.  But, you only want to be playing for the front edge at the first, anyway.

The problem is, the turf is so pure that it's hard to fault what they're doing, even if the course was more fun to play ten years ago.

I honestly do not understand this comment. Is this about the semi-rough turf around the fairway that could/should be mown lower?

[John Shimp]

I love the way the bunkers look.  They sit down into the land, the sand color matches the fescue when it's dried, and they show the right amount of sand.  One of the things that I really dislike about some modern architects and sand choice selections and bunker creation styles is how obscene certain bunkers look. The shoulders are too high and too much super white sand is shown or the bunker overrules the land it is placed on.  It creates uninviting approaches that look ridiculously intimidating even if the green is big and easy. Just gaudy stuff.  I've seen a fair amount of this on tv the last couple of months.   

[Adam Clayman]

Like prairie Dunes, the rough lines seem to be a function of keeping the ball out of the native.

Re The comment on pure turf, I assume Tom meant that it's not that big a penalty to be in the primary rough. It's so nice and even.

Mark, I had my best round of the year on my virgin trek. I attributed that to the fact that I was not being overly aggressive, being happy with short of the greens. As an i.e. I hit a weak sister drive on #1 with 210 remaining. I hit my 185 club which hooked and rolled to just short of the front left (where the pin was). Mike Devries hit his approach pin high 15 feet right of the hole. I knew it was a special day when I realized Mike was cussing the whole way up to the green.

[JC Jones]

Ralph,

Not my intent at all, but....

Ralph:

You were right on time!

In general, I agree with JC, if he meant to say that the first cut of rough is too thick and green, and the greens are a bit too fast for everyday play.  The problem is, the turf is so pure that it's hard to fault what they're doing, even if the course was more fun to play ten years ago.

Someone mark this thread.  It might be the first time we've actually agreed on anything 

[Phil McDade]

Phil, I guess the above comment is the answer... cause that's the way the membership likes it. 

RJ:

I asked because Crystal Downs, both from these pictures and those I've seen previously, strikes me as having some similarities to Lawsonia, esp. with the wide-open, relatively treeless nature of the courses, and the use of native grasses. The first hole at CD is not Lawsonia wide.

[Mark Saltzman]

Like prairie Dunes, the rough lines seem to be a function of keeping the ball out of the native.

Re The comment on pure turf, I assume Tom meant that it's not that big a penalty to be in the primary rough. It's so nice and even.

Mark, I had my best round of the year on my virgin trek. I attributed that to the fact that I was not being overly aggressive, being happy with short of the greens. As an i.e. I hit a weak sister drive on #1 with 210 remaining. I hit my 185 club which hooked and rolled to just short of the front left (where the pin was). Mike Devries hit his approach pin high 15 feet right of the hole. I knew it was a special day when I realized Mike was cussing the whole way up to the green.

Adam,

I know what you mean.  I was hitting it straight but not even close to solid.  I kept clubbing-up and still kept coming up half-a-club short.  I was above the pin on 2, 5, 9 (bogey, bogey, double), but other than that was below the hole on every hole simply because I couldn't hit it solid enough to get all the way back to the pins.

[Dustin Ferrell]

Ralph:

You were right on time!

In general, I agree with JC, if he meant to say that the first cut of rough is too thick and green, and the greens are a bit too fast for everyday play.  The problem is, the turf is so pure that it's hard to fault what they're doing, even if the course was more fun to play ten years ago.

I played CD last September for the first time on a really windy day and literally couldn't get the ball to come to rest on some of the greens when placing my ball down after marking it.  On the first hole I hit a shot my approach shot that I thought was pretty good only to have someone in my group say "thats dead".  I didn't fully appreciate the comment untill I putted OFF THE GREEN w/ only a slight tap of the putter.  This was really my only complaint after playing the course was that it felt to me like the greens were too fast for the deign.  I don't mind fast greens, but it made some putts just absolutely dead where even the best of putts didn't have a chance.

Absolutely loved the course and the experience...what a special place. Thanks for posting some pics!