Over the top greens

[Alfonso Erhardt]

I would like to draw your attention to the greens in this weekend's Madrid Masters. It is being played at a new course, El Encin, designed by Robert von Hagge and which opened shortly after he died.

Wide fairways, lots of bunkers but the greens are just too much. All of them are huge in size with undulations, swales and platforms like nothing I have seen before (especially the first 9). My club's greenkeeper described them as a nightmare to maintain.

Really interesting to see how pins are placed for pros this weekend, knowing their allergy to the extraordinary....

Regards,

[Brian_Ewen]

I noticed Paul Lawrie called the greens silly in his blog yesterday.

Yet scoring has been low today.

Even John Daly managed a 76 !

[Alfonso Erhardt]

I would assume that they are using the most obvious pins, but that leaves 85% of the greens useless....

[Jon Wiggett]

I would assume that they are using the most obvious pins, but that leaves 85% of the greens useless....

Alfonso,

if the greens are big enough then why not have only 15% of the green for pin positons. Surely a green that was 100% pin positions would be flat and boring like so many of the tours greens.

Jon

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Jon,

I probably didn't explain myself properly. The greens are so contoured that there is very little pinnable space. Even less when pros which require faster speeds - and are usually unhappy about "agressive" pin positions - are around.

[Brian_Ewen]

I noticed Paul Lawrie called the greens silly in his blog yesterday.

I wonder if Mr. Lawrie went into the 1st round with a "neggy attitude" ?

4 three putts on the front nine !

Still managed a level par 72 !

[Jim Eder]

It is interesting, I forget what hole it was 16 maybe but it was approx 80 yards from front to back.  It would be very expensive to maintain but it could offer different holes potentially from different tees.  Maybe a long par 3, a short drivable 4, a longer 4.  The contours on the greens looked very interesting understanding the pin placement issue with the speed. From watching the TV it didn't look to be unfair or unplayable, just requiring precision and thought. I was really intrigued by the greens. It seems like it might be able to be set up very differently on consecutive days. Would be interesting to see if anyone has played it and whether it really is too much or whether it really offers a lot of interesting set-ups.  From the scoring (and there was some wind) it didn't appear to be too much for many players.   

[Jim Eder]

It is the 17th hole with the long green, not 16. 

[Mark Pearce]

Long and very, very narrow from the coverage I saw.  I must admit it made me watch, which is more than most European Tour venues do.

[Mike_Clayton]

Alfonso,

The only word I had was from a caddy and friend (he used to work for Txomin) who was working for Alexandro Canizares.
He described them as a 'joke - unplayable for amateurs'
i did not see them but he grew up in Melbourne and is normally a pretty good judge.

It would be interesting to see them - it's always better to make up your own mind than rely on the judgement of pros.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I like and use the occaisional long or very wide green and like them as a player. 

No. 3 at Cowboys is wide and angles just enough that there is a 1.5 club difference between left and right, enough to make someone who hasn't judged correctly or pulls a shot go in the water.  Large greens on small shots can lull folks to sleep.  And the long putt, while perhaps disliked, is never forgotten and often discussed, hopefully in the good humor that the architect intended.......

[Robin_Hiseman]

16 was also enormously long and narrow, perhaps 70 metres x 12m.

It was compelling viewing because of the severity of the greens and it is not often you can say that about televised golf on a Sunday afternoon.

Designer Rick Baril is in bullish mood on his design blog, which makes for interesting reading.

http://richardbaril.blogspot.com/

I think its good to mix it up with a variety of challenges on the tour.  Some of these greens were REALLY wild, far wilder than my own in Bahrain, which got under the skin of a handful of pros back in January, but these guys are the best in the business and should be able to cope with anything out of the ordinary.  As the scores proved, they can work it out and it makes it far more entertaining for spectators and viewers to watch them exhibiting their skills in demanding and unusual situations.

I'd love to have a go on these greens and will make a point of visiting when our Madrid project kicks off.  I doubt I would go as far with the contouring and shaping in my own work.  I went far enough in Bahrain!

[Kalen Braley]

This is how you properly challenge short approach shots!!  

[Jim Eder]

Kalen,

What course is your picture from?

Robin,

Thanks for the blog link.

[Kalen Braley]

Its a local course here in the Spokane area called Antler Springs.

Very much off the beaten path..a quirky homemade-style course.

[Doug Wright]

This is how you properly challenge short approach shots!!  

Kalen,

That is a nice rendering of the 8th at Pine Valley!

[Mark McKeever]

When I first saw that pic I tought of 8 at Pine Valley also.  That and 5 at Boston Golf Club.

Mark

[Jim Eder]

Thanks Kalen. It looks like it could be a fun course. 6 looks interesting from the website.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

I did a full course review a few months back if your interested!!  The course is indeed full of quirky holes!


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49376.0.html

[Alfonso Erhardt]

I am playing El Encin tomorrow. i will take some pictures to illustrate.

[Adam Clayman]

Ober the top is a description I hear from time to time. I'm not a fan of generic, and over the top would only qualify in my book if there is no creative way to get the ball nearer the hole. i.e.  sideboards or contrary slopes that will allow the creative putter to aim away from the hole and still have a go at it.
As Mike Clayton said, one needs to make up their own mind, but increasingly, "over the top" sounds more and more like "unfair".

[GBoring]

I don't know if over the top is the phrase I would use for this green but this is my favorite at Country Club of Scranton.  The green complex has become much better since the renovation.  

[Jim Eder]

Greg,

I like that green. What speed are the greens at typically? How large of a green is it and how many fair pin placements exist on it? It is always tough from photos but it seems really interesting to me, I love greens like that. Thanks

[GBoring]

Jim,

Greens are typically 11-11.5   Usually a little faster for tourney play.  That is our 13th green.  It happens to be the smallest on the golf course.  about 3800 square feet.  Most of our greens do have ample hole locations.  The greens here are our #1 asset.  15 of 18 have never been touched and they have some of the most intersting contours you have ever seen on a set of greens.  We are currently in the middle of a major renovation but we are not touching the putting surfaces.

[Jim Eder]

Greg,

Thanks. I get a sense one has to have great touch on the greens in order to score especially with speeds like that. When Mr. Ford ranks these greens just behind Oakmont's THAT is VERY impressive.  Can't wait to see the course tour up on the internet after the renovation. Hopefully the greens will come through in the pics. Thanks for the info, it seems like the members are very fortunate!!