City sued because golf course isn't a Donald Ross

[JC Jones]

An operator of a city-owned golf course in Florida is suing the city to get out of its contract because the city represented that the golf course was a Donald Ross and now that fact is in question.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/os-sanford-golf-20110919,0,2557126.story

Should be interesting to see how this pans out.  My favorite quote is the last one in the story.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49795.msg1129010/topicseen.html#msg1129010

[John Kavanaugh]

Any bets on who the city will pay to be an expert witness saying it is a Ross?  What kind of money could a guy get for that kind of work?

[Joe Bausch]

I wouldn't think this would be all that hard to figure out who was the architect(s)...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joe,

Well, then obviously, you haven't been following the Merion, NGLA, and PV threads.  Unless of course, it shouldn't be that hard outside of Philly........

[Lester George]

I wonder if Michael Fay received anything for his involvement?

Lester

[Mike Hendren]

I wonder if Michael Fay received anything for his involvement?

Lester

I played with Mr. Fay at Lookout Mountain a few years ago. I asked him his opinion of Ross' Memphis CC.  He'd never seen it.  Curious that the founder of the Donald Ross Society would travel to Sanford, Florida to look at a muni when he apparently doesn't have time to get to Memphis to see a genuine article that is relatively intact with a fabulous routing.

Mike

[Carl Nichols]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

[Joe Bausch]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

[JC Jones]

From John Conley:

[Carl Johnson]

Anyone know anything about the Ross plans for a "Mayfair Park" course that rumor has it may now be in the hands of either the USGA or the World Golf Hall of Fame (or maybe not)?

[Mike Nuzzo]

"The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross course."

If all of Ross' courses had these hallmarks, I'd consider him one of the worst architects of all time.

Cheers

[JC Jones]

"The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross course."

If all of Ross' courses had these hallmarks, I'd consider him one of the worst architects of all time.

Cheers

Thanks for being the one to grab on to the last quote.  I loved it.

[Joe Bausch]

From John Conley:

Salford = Sanford ?

[John_Conley]

Joe, the other thread I started on this has a post from Mike Dasher.  He is the one that uncovered the news article JC posted for us.  On that thread, Mike does speculate that "Saiford" is in fact the town of Sanford a little north of Orlando.

Regardless of the architect, it is definitely true that it was a Tour stop for several years.  There are tournament results posted around the clubhouse.  Before there were over 1,000 courses in Florida this was one of the first.  I'm sure it was quite a place in its heyday.

[David Cronheim]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

I don't think it's necessarily all that easy. As I've posted in other threads, we still cannot find who the architect was for my home club despite years of trying.

[Joe Bausch]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

I don't think it's necessarily all that easy. As I've posted in other threads, we still cannot find who the architect was for my home club despite years of trying.

This is Twin Brooks, right?  Which iteration of TB do you not know the archie?  When did the course open?

[David Cronheim]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

I don't think it's necessarily all that easy. As I've posted in other threads, we still cannot find who the architect was for my home club despite years of trying.

This is Twin Brooks, right?  Which iteration of TB do you not know the archie?  When did the course open?

That's correct. We don't know the architect for any of the layouts, but we're obviously most interested in finding out who designed our current course which opened in 1926 in Watchung. The course was known as "Hydewood" for about a year after moving from North Plainfield (where it had been known as Hydewood, and a previous layout in Plainfield was known as "Park Golf Club"). It then became "Watchung Valley Country Club" and later "Twin Brooks Country Club."

[Sean_Tully]

I too got interested in this the other day! I looked through some old magazines and the only course that I could find in Sanford was Sanford Country Club(municipal) it opened in 1922 and initially had nine holes. In looking at the 1930-1 booklet it showed that it had added nine holes between 1925 and then.  This was the only course listed for Sanford in the 1930-1 book.

I did some quick searches but came up empty. Hope this helps.

Tully

[Joe Bausch]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

I don't think it's necessarily all that easy. As I've posted in other threads, we still cannot find who the architect was for my home club despite years of trying.

This is Twin Brooks, right?  Which iteration of TB do you not know the archie?  When did the course open?

That's correct. We don't know the architect for any of the layouts, but we're obviously most interested in finding out who designed our current course which opened in 1926 in Watchung. The course was known as "Hydewood" for about a year after moving from North Plainfield (where it had been known as Hydewood, and a previous layout in Plainfield was known as "Park Golf Club"). It then became "Watchung Valley Country Club" and later "Twin Brooks Country Club."

David, the Plainfield Public Library appears to have a long run of the Plainfield Courier News:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85035974/holdings/

Have you explored this already?

[Ed Oden]

Anyone know anything about the Ross plans for a "Mayfair Park" course that rumor has it may now be in the hands of either the USGA or the World Golf Hall of Fame (or maybe not)?

Carl, as Roger mentioned on the other thread, the plans were last seen in the possession of Ross's granddaughter.  It is pretty clear that they were not for the Florida course of similar name discussed in this thread since the person that saw them said they were clearly identified as plans for a "Mayfair Park Golf Course in Charlotte, NC".  Unfortunately, the plans were in such poor condition that he did not dare unfurl them to see exactly what they were for.  Instead, he suggested to the family that they turn the plans over to the USGA for restoration/preservation.  I have checked with the USGA and that never happened.  So the assumption is that the plans are still with Ross's descendents.  I have tried, unsuccessfully, to make contact with the family for the last year or so.  They have not responded to any of my inquiries.

[Carl Johnson]

Anyone know anything about the Ross plans for a "Mayfair Park" course that rumor has it may now be in the hands of either the USGA or the World Golf Hall of Fame (or maybe not)?

Carl, as Roger mentioned on the other thread, the plans were last seen in the possession of Ross's granddaughter.  It is pretty clear that they were not for the Florida course of similar name discussed in this thread since the person that saw them said they were clearly identified as plans for a "Mayfair Park Golf Course in Charlotte, NC".  Unfortunately, the plans were in such poor condition that he did not dare unfurl them to see exactly what they were for.  Instead, he suggested to the family that they turn the plans over to the USGA for restoration/preservation.  I have checked with the USGA and that never happened.  So the assumption is that the plans are still with Ross's descendents.  I have tried, unsuccessfully, to make contact with the family for the last year or so.  They have not responded to any of my inquiries.

Ed, thanks for the information.  I'd heard bits and pieces of this before, but not the "Charlotte, NC" part, as I recall, or who found them originally.  This could be an interesting story.  Thanks for the sleuthing.

[David Cronheim]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

I don't think it's necessarily all that easy. As I've posted in other threads, we still cannot find who the architect was for my home club despite years of trying.

This is Twin Brooks, right?  Which iteration of TB do you not know the archie?  When did the course open?

That's correct. We don't know the architect for any of the layouts, but we're obviously most interested in finding out who designed our current course which opened in 1926 in Watchung. The course was known as "Hydewood" for about a year after moving from North Plainfield (where it had been known as Hydewood, and a previous layout in Plainfield was known as "Park Golf Club"). It then became "Watchung Valley Country Club" and later "Twin Brooks Country Club."

David, the Plainfield Public Library appears to have a long run of the Plainfield Courier News:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85035974/holdings/

Have you explored this already?

Joe, I have, but the indexes are not searchable, so it's thousands of pages of microfilm. We don't really have a date to look for either, so it's a bit of a needle in a haystack sort of problem. It may be time for a real concerted effort though at some point in the future.

[Joe Bausch]

If it turns out that this IS (was?) a Ross course, these statements will be priceless:

The greens are not all elevated and do not slope back to front, two hallmarks of Ross courses, Fay said.  "It's not a Donald Ross course. It's nothing like a Donald Ross course," he said Monday.

Even if it's not a Ross course, are those necessarily hallmarks of Ross courses? 

Carl, how long would it take someone with interlibrary loan access to track down some early newspapers around that time from Seminole County?

 

I don't think it's necessarily all that easy. As I've posted in other threads, we still cannot find who the architect was for my home club despite years of trying.

This is Twin Brooks, right?  Which iteration of TB do you not know the archie?  When did the course open?

That's correct. We don't know the architect for any of the layouts, but we're obviously most interested in finding out who designed our current course which opened in 1926 in Watchung. The course was known as "Hydewood" for about a year after moving from North Plainfield (where it had been known as Hydewood, and a previous layout in Plainfield was known as "Park Golf Club"). It then became "Watchung Valley Country Club" and later "Twin Brooks Country Club."

David, the Plainfield Public Library appears to have a long run of the Plainfield Courier News:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85035974/holdings/

Have you explored this already?

Joe, I have, but the indexes are not searchable, so it's thousands of pages of microfilm. We don't really have a date to look for either, so it's a bit of a needle in a haystack sort of problem. It may be time for a real concerted effort though at some point in the future.

Entice another member or two that are history buffs to help out.   

One long weekend at the microfilm readers and you can knock out about a year of a paper, or maybe a bit faster as it did not publish on Sundays.  You can probably find out pretty quickly if the paper will be any good for info if the sports section is a decent size and if they have a golf writer or at least are regularly covering golf stories.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mayfair might just be a Donald Ross  course after all.

https://www.eigca.org/Article/EIGCA19565.ink