So what do you do when your club closes? Musgrove Mill GC

[Tommy Williamsen]

So I did get the letter and it is Musgrove Mill GC..

I haven't gotten the letter yet, but another member did and our club is closing as of Dec 1.  Now I am just a national member, but I get there at least two or three weeks every year.  I have been a member for fifteen years.  I have many friends at the club.  I have known the staff for all those years.  It feels like a death.  I know that when the club closes, I will more than likely not see most of those guys again.  It is my favorite place to go and play golf.  I stay at the club and don't even want to leave while I am there, unless it is to go to a buddy's house for dinner.  I'm not naming the club until I have the official letter in my hot sweaty little hand.
I realize that it is not like losing a job or a family member but it still sucks.
How do you replace something that has been such an integral part of your life?

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

I happened to be at Beechtree on the day they officially announced they were going to shut it down.  The guys I felt worst for were the rangers and the guys working around the clubhouse, who all really loved the place; they knew what was coming, but it was still a shock for them, like they weren't sure what they were going to do next.

What did in your place -- are there really not enough members or is it still the debt from when the course was built?

[Ken Moum]

I've been playing for the last 13 years Shawnee CC in Topeka, and in April of 2010 our board had the letter ready to send out announcing that the club was closing.  The bank holding the mortgage didn't think that was a good outcome for its asset, so since 4/1/10, a management company has been running it for the bank.

There's been good and bad.  the uncertainty has made it hard to get and keep members, but our new manager at least have changed the focus from the clubhouse to the golf course.  Now Shawnee GC, we are getting some outside play (about 1/3 of rounds), and what little money they have is being spent on the course.

Interstingly, about 10 daya ago, my wife and I played Hillcrest GC (formerly CC) in Kansas City, the only otyher Ross design around here.  They have a HUGE, beautiful clubhouse and a great new pool... and they are both essentially closed by the new owners.  We talked to a fellow in in charge of what is open, and he told us about a day three years ago when they called in the employees to tell them that they couldn't pay the mortgages any more.

So they were letting some investors take it over.  The course isn't in great shape, but it is still open, and we played it for ~$25 each on a Groupon.

Around here, the golf market is crashing and courses are finding out that the market will only bear about $100 monthly dues, and perhaps $25 green fees.  So they are trying to figure out how to run a course on the resulting income.

K

[cary lichtenstein]

You and your buddies will huddle together and in the end, you'll be happy wherever u go so long as it is with best friends.

That's why guys belong to b or c grade architecture, friendship

[Tommy Williamsen]

So it is Musgrove Mill GC. The course has always struggled a bit.  It is outside Greenville/Spartanbug SC and only really good players joined because the course is pretty difficult.   Four years ago John McConnell bought it from the membership.It was a staple on Golf Week's top 100 modern until two years ago.  At one point it was in there top 50.  GD had it either 7th or 11th in SC, depending on the year.  Members are rabid about the club.  People have moved to the area because of the club.  The course, however, isn't the only draw.  It is a great club.  I live in Annapolis, MD but I know more guys at MM than at either of my home clubs.  MM has rooms in the clubhouse and two cottages. It has always had a large national membership.  

McConnell put over a $1,000,000 into the club.  He did his job.  The course was just losing $600,000 a year and he couldn't keep it up.  He is going to keep the course in some kind of condition in case things change and it reopens.

I feel for the staff.  The head pro is Jeff Tallman.  He just a prince of a guy and has been there about 15 years.  He is a throwback to the old time pro who just wandered out to the practice tee and would watch you hit sue shots and make a suggestion or two.  Or he would just take the time to listen or have a drink or just hang out.  

McConnell owns seven other clubs and we can just transfer our membership to one of the other clubs.  Nice deal, and they are all good clubs.  They just aren't MM.

I did a write up about it a couple of years ago.  The pictures are the best but here is the link.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/musgrove-mill/

[PThomas]

this sucks Tommy...MM is the best Palmer course I've ever played, its in a fantastic setting,  and Jeff is a super nice guy

I hope the situation can somehow be turned around

[Matt MacIver]

I really hate to hear this, MM is one of my all-time favs for all the reasons Tommy said.  I had hoped / assumed when McConnell got involved there would be no financial issues.  Hope it can be saved, somehow.  If this high quality course can't make it I can think of a few others in the Carolinas that are at risk. 

[Garland Bayley]

My condolences to fellow Hardrocker Turboe.

[Dan Byrnes]

My club bit the dust last year.  Reopened as a semi private this year.  While not that much really changed it's not the same as it once was.  People scattered and the membership is small.  It will be interesting to see what happens going forward. A club is primarily about the people.  Everything else is secondary to me.

Dan

[Mark Johnson]

So I did get the letter and it is Musgrove Mill GC..

I haven't gotten the letter yet, but another member did and our club is closing as of Dec 1.  Now I am just a national member, but I get there at least two or three weeks every year.  I have been a member for fifteen years.  I have many friends at the club.  I have known the staff for all those years.  It feels like a death.  I know that when the club closes, I will more than likely not see most of those guys again.  It is my favorite place to go and play golf.  I stay at the club and don't even want to leave while I am there, unless it is to go to a buddy's house for dinner.  I'm not naming the club until I have the official letter in my hot sweaty little hand.
I realize that it is not like losing a job or a family member but it still sucks.
How do you replace something that has been such an integral part of your life?

My condolences.   Is the course closed for good or will it reopen as a public/semiprivate?

[Kin Britton]

Just saw this and confirmed the news with a friend of mine.  I was a member at Musgrove from 2002-2004 and a friend of mine's dad was one of the organizing members when it opened in the late 80's.  First time I played it, I thought it was the hardest golf course I had ever seen.  Musgrove has always been one of my favorites.  Hate to see it close and like you I feel for the staff.  Jeff is truly a prince of a guy and I wish him all the best.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kin, you are so right about Jeff.  He is the best.  Sorry I didn't meet you when you were a member.  I have to think that a businessman as savvy was John McConnell has other strategies up his sleeve than shutting it down forever.  It is too good a course to lose.  He is a businessman but he is also a lover of golf.  He took Raleigh CC when it was on life support and breathed life into it.  I' will be curious to see what happens in the new year or so. 

[Jamey Bryan]

Tommy

When I saw that you'd started this thread, my first thought was that this can't be Musgrove Mill!  Like others, I'd assumed that McConnell's involvement had eliminated worries of financial stress.

I've been planning/hoping to play in a SCGA tournament there in November, this news certainly increases my resolve to do so.

Very sad news.

Jamey

[John Kavanaugh]

For those of us who have been around for a while and are friends with some of the fine members of Musgrove this is an interesting study in the inner workings of GCA.  When the course first hit our radar it was surprisingly, I say that because it was a Palmer, highly ranked course in Golfweek.  One surprise was that three members were Digest raters where the course was unranked.  Over time these fine and generous gentlemen invited and/or hosted many of the Golfweek raters who earned their card from posting on this site.  Down, down, down the rankings went as comments such as "MM is the best Palmer course I've ever played, its in a fantastic setting,  and Jeff is a super nice guy" expounded from our resident experts.  Now the course is unranked and unopen, coincidence, I think not.

[john_stiles]

Musgrove is in a tough location in my opinion.  Not close enough, apparentely to either Spartanburg/Greenvile to lure that crowd, and a bit far from Columbia.   I enjoyed each and every play through the years.

The competition from the Cliffs communities had to hurt a little.   When it was purchased by McConnell, it did seem like good news.  Packaging this course with the other courses made sense for Carolina golfers.

I think it will have another life as a course,  hopefully at least one shot as semi private.

But then you think about High Pointe, and you think just too many were built. Some will not make it, but you hope it isn't the ones like Musgrove.

[Michael Whitaker]

Musgrove Mill currently has 70 dues paying members. 70!

The total operating budget for the place is only something like $700,000. We should start a "Save Musgrove Mill" campaign.

As much as you guys like your national memberships I would think Musgrove would be perfect for your portfolio.

JK - the problem with Musgrove is not rankings. The problem is that it is in South Carolina. If it were in Nebraska you and lot of other guys on this forum would be members.

[JC Jones]

Mike,

At $175/mo for a national membership, it certainly is as affordable as any option out there.  I'm sure the cottages and the amenities are on par with many as well.

[Bryan Drennon]

Unbelievable. That place is special. It may have been the hardest course I ever played in a tournament. Hopefully something is in the works.

[Mark Pearce]

Tommy,

When we played at Alwoodley a few years back you spoke with great fondness of Musgrove Mill.  I'm very sorry to hear this news and hope that some solution can be found which enables you to continue enjoying it as much as you have in the past.

Best Regards,

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

JK - the problem with Musgrove is not rankings. The problem is that it is in South Carolina. If it were in Nebraska you and lot of other guys on this forum would be members.

Yea, the buzz about Arbor Links on this site is deafening.  ______ is the best Palmer course I've ever played, it's in a fantastic setting,  and ______ is a super nice guy.  The blanket review of Palmer courses by our resident experts does nothing to promote play.

I'm not saying I'm any better than the heard mentality on this forum.  I heard Arbor Links was a Palmer and drove on by despite the Pro telling me it was far better than the course I joined.

[Michael Whitaker]

Unbelievable. That place is special. It may have been the hardest course I ever played in a tournament. Hopefully something is in the works.

That was the other problem for Musgrove Mill... most potential members considered it too hard to play on a regular basis. Musgrove wanted to be considered a "players" course and, as such, sealed its fate.

Just like True Blue in Pawleys Island which was originally built to challenge the better player, Musgrove Mill's reputation for difficulty scared off most potential customers. True Blue, being a resort course, softened the edges and turned business around. Musgrove, on the other hand, made sure the greens were as fast as they could get them and dared golfers to tackle the beast.

Don't get me wrong, I love Musgrove Mill... was even thinking of joining there when I return to SC this fall.

This doesn't sound like much of a problem to you guys in the northeast, but most people in SC don't want to drive 45 minutes or so to play at their "home" course. Musgrove Mill is at least 45-60 minutes from everywhere. With dues of $330 a month it was obviously difficult for most South Carolinians to justify being a member of a club that you might visit two or three times a month during the season... especially when there were excellent options closer to home. Everyone wanted to be a GUEST at Musgrove... no one wanted to join.

I think a $200 per month price point for a local membership would have brought in a lot members from a 60 mile radius. They should have used Palmetto Golf Club in Aiken for a model and had a national membership for about $100 a month... I'll bet they would have had 100 or more.

The other error at Musgrove Mill is McConnell tried to make it a "classy" place... doubling the service staff and upgrading the food and wine service to a high level. This is all well and good, but basic food service for golfers and a good bar it all they really needed. It needs to be more of a homespun place... again, like Palmetto.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I live almost an hour from Musgrove. As do most people in the area. It is not close to anything.
I revisited the course this summer after a gap of years. I was impressed by the changes McConnell had made on course. I have never stayed in the cottages. Don't think I have had more than a sandwich at the turn. I was told there were alot of original members that were involved in the textile industry. And everyone knows how that is going today. It certainly is not a family CC but a players club, as it is one tough course. However, it saddens me a course that has been around for many years , ranked #13 or so in SC and is a hell of a golf course is closing. 

[Howard Riefs]

Golf Digest's Pete Finch writes about the demise of Musgrove Mill:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/10/the-11th-ranked-course-in-sout.html

Key points:

“The problem is, it’s dragging our other courses down,” says Ryan McDonald, vice president of marketing for McConnell Golf. “It’s not fair to the rest of them.”

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"Part of Musgrove Mill’s problem is its remote location. ... The owners invested “a fair amount” in lodging facilities at the Arnold Palmer-designed course, aiming to turn it into an overnight destination for members of its other clubs, McDonald says.

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“We were hoping the rest of our courses could keep Musgrove Mill busy, and they have helped, but it just wasn’t enough. We can’t maintain it to our standards on the kind of income it was producing.”

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Although it’s not officially “on the market,” the company will certainly entertain offers. McDonald figures it might work as a semi-private club or even a public course.  McConnell Golf founder John McConnell has made it clear that’s not his business model; he is building a network of strictly private, high-end clubs.

[PThomas]

Golf Digest's Pete Finch writes about the demise of Musgrove Mill:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/10/the-11th-ranked-course-in-sout.html

Key points:

“The problem is, it’s dragging our other courses down,” says Ryan McDonald, vice president of marketing for McConnell Golf. “It’s not fair to the rest of them.”

"Part of Musgrove Mill’s problem is its remote location. ... The owners invested “a fair amount” in lodging facilities at the Arnold Palmer-designed course, aiming to turn it into an overnight destination for members of its other clubs, McDonald says.

“We were hoping the rest of our courses could keep Musgrove Mill busy, and they have helped, but it just wasn’t enough. We can’t maintain it to our standards on the kind of income it was producing.”

Although it’s not officially “on the market,” the company will certainly entertain offers. McDonald figures it might work as a semi-private club or even a public course.  McConnell Golf founder John McConnell has made it clear that’s not his business model; he is building a network of strictly private, high-end clubs.

well that confirms why things unfortunanately did not work out at MM.....

[JC Jones]

If it is true that the operating costs for the entire club are only $700k/year including running the cottages and F&B, I'd be shocked if it didn't get swooped up in a hurry.  Unless McConnell is asking an unreasonable sum for it.

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