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Patrick_Mucci

Was Dick Wilson
« on: October 02, 2011, 08:32:42 PM »
appreciated in his time, but, almost forgotten today ?

1962 story on Wilson and Jones: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1073966/index.htm

And the 1955 Herb Wind story on Meadow Brook: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1130403/index.htm

Was Doral, a wonderful Dick Wilson course disfigured and destroyed ?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 09:14:20 PM »
There was a pretty good thread a couple of years ago. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=35336.0
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Scott Stearns

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 09:15:44 PM »
dick wilson was a drunk

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 09:19:43 PM »
Hey Hey some of my best friends are drunks.

Sam Morrow

Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 09:41:47 PM »
dick wilson was a drunk

I'm sure he isn't the only GCA who was a drunk.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 09:55:50 PM »
Safely said Sam

Sam Morrow

Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 09:58:07 PM »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 10:31:40 PM »
This T&L Golf magazine article (from 2003) is mostly about Joe Lee, Wilson's partner, but it does mention some of the courses their firm designed.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/joe-lees-legacy

Chris Buie

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 08:31:25 AM »
The best piece I've read regarding Dick Wilson was a recent IMO article by Kevin Mendik. Kevin did a first rate job with it.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cultural-landscape-assessment-for-the-restoration-of-the-golf-course-at-sunnylands-estate/

Oh and speaking of drinking there is a 3 part Ken Burns film called "Prohibition" playing on PBS now.  The first episode was last night and it was well done - and not as preachy as his other films. The 2nd episode is tonight followed by the 3rd tomorrow. I'd say it's probably worth checking out. After all, Burns is a master craftsman.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 09:00:49 AM »
Very interesting articles, Pat. Thanks for the links.

Dick Wilson is a fascinating character. As I've said before, I want to do more research on his original works - Pine Tree, in historic photos, looks very impressive, for one. I suspect much of Wilson's work has been altered and evolved to a point that it no longer reflects his vision - no different than most of the Golden Age architecture these days.

I'm sure you've played Meadow Brook? How does it measure up these days, compared with Mr. Wind's writings, indicating it would become one of the great courses of the world? Curious.

jeffmingay.com

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 09:49:48 AM »
Very interesting articles, Pat. Thanks for the links.
Dick Wilson is a fascinating character. As I've said before, I want to do more research on his original works - Pine Tree, in historic photos, looks very impressive, for one. I suspect much of Wilson's work has been altered and evolved to a point that it no longer reflects his vision - no different than most of the Golden Age architecture these days.
I'm sure you've played Meadow Brook? How does it measure up these days, compared with Mr. Wind's writings, indicating it would become one of the great courses of the world? Curious.


Jeff,
  Come to PT this winter, were due to catch up anyways. The memberships has gone to great length to do their best to preserve Wilson's work. The bunker here is not what you see at Doral, LaCosta and the old Cog Hill. It's not great to the eye, but is DOES actually look like the orgianly work from photographs that we have from 1962. There are putting together a 50th Anniversary book as we speak that will have a lot of these photos in them. The greens and still very large, huge fairways, runway style tees. Other than tree being planted, it's very much intact.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 10:00:55 AM »
Pat,

I am sure that early next year, many will believe that we (Damian Pascusso, Steve Pate, and I) "disfigured" La Costa, but I hope not.  It turns out only the tournament 18 was really done by Wilson, and Joe Lee did the two newer nines.  You could see the difference in bunkering.  However, it also turns out that the Lee nines were built in house with no supervision.  Bunkers sat on top of mounds, not in them.  Also, at some point, all greens had been rebuilt simply by adding new mix on top of the old greens, raising them a foot.

We took the best of the Wilson bunkers, measured them, and used those kinds of dimensions to try to recreate that style all over the North Course.  Since the newer parts were total rebuilds, we made sure to use the same shaper on all of them, so there is also a little bit of both him and us in those bunkers, and as time went on during the project, we used the style, but let the bunkers expand to where they seemed to want to go, even if the pure shape of the Wilson bunker was already there.

Just goes to show how some value decisions must be made in even the intent to restore.

Even more than the bunker style, I would say that the raised greens are a Wilson Trademark, and I also think that is what may have helped reduce the popularity of his, or really, the 50's style - too penal and aerial for the average player.  That said, I recall Brent Wadsworth, on one of my early KN projects, telling us about that style and how cool those 15% up slopes into the green were.  "That's the way you build greens," he said.  At La Costa, I think those elevated approaches do look cool, way cooler than the many ground level approaches built now.

Just my $.02
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 10:50:48 AM »

When I renovated Dick Wilson's Elizabeth Manor Golf & Country Club (host site of the famous Eastern Amateur) I used old aerial photographs of Pine Tree and other Wilson courses as a guide for styling of bunkers.  The story goes that Wilson was fired after nine holes and the course was finished in-house.  The difference from one nine to the other is noticeable.  Great golf course though.

Lester

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 11:04:53 AM »
My favorite course in my hometown Chicago was Cog Hill#2. I played it over 100 times even though I belonged to a private country club about 1.5 hours from my home in the northern suburbs.

I took my dad and wife there many times and tons of my friends. I loved the layout, the diversity, the bunkering and the topography.  My favorite holes were  2,4, 6, 8,10 12,13,14,16 and 18.

My other favorite Dick Wilson course was Doral. We had guy trips, Christmas and Spring vacations there many times and I probably played that almost as many times. Doral was a totally manufactures course with no real topography, but I always enjoyed it as well. There quirkiness at Coh Hill was not evident at Doral, and as I write this, I notice that I'm not listing favorite holes as I didn't have the love of holes as I did at Cog.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2011, 12:02:08 PM »

Jeff,

Steve Pate?  How was he involved?  If you dont mind me asking.  Call me if you want to discuss offline.

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2011, 12:14:53 PM »
Lester,

Damian and Steve are partners.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Tanner

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2011, 01:08:14 PM »
Lester,
Which nine at Elizabeth Manor is purported to be the Wilson's work?
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2011, 03:35:32 PM »

Mike,

I don't recall.  It "feels" to me like it was the back nine.  I have a fifty-fifty chance of being correct.  I am not even sure of the story, but the back nine seem more Wilsonesque.  I am pretty sure he did the entire master plan, so all the holes would be his unless they made changes to his plan.  The story I recall was they were finishing the Back and had already satrted the Front when he was dismissed. (alchohol related)

Lester

Randy Thompson

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2011, 04:11:23 PM »
Lester and Anthony
Are the greens big at the Wilson courses that you are involved with, I have been working with one of his clubs and in fact I am here now and the greens average close to nine thousand square feet.

Lester George

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2011, 04:31:14 PM »
Randy,

At E-Manor they averaged about 6,500 to 7,000 if I recall. 

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2011, 04:40:39 PM »
I have the Joe Lee green plans for La Costa.  That nine holes had greens varying in planned size from 7200 to 8400 SF.

They had all shrunk to about 4200-4600 by last year.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2011, 04:42:31 PM »
7500ish square feet
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2011, 04:45:49 PM »
@ Jeff B.,

So are you expanding all of those green surfaces back out to their original sizes at La Costa? Just curious,
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2011, 04:55:27 PM »
Not quite.  Took them all out about 3-4 feet all around, adding back maybe 1500 SF.  A little more on some.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

Re: Was Dick Wilson
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2011, 06:28:50 PM »
I worked with Joe Lee at Royal Montreal briefly.
I liked him, but thought the arrangement that Royal set up was very odd.
I was glad to move on when Joe was uncomfortable with having a transition architect present while he worked.

Royal had some interesting ideas, Joe claimed it was 100% his work, but the clubs history credits another member of Wilson's staff supervising the work. The Red Course still has many of the better features while the Blue (used for the President's Cup) is all Rees Jones now.