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Rich_Goodale

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2002, 06:42:03 PM »
This thread deserves to get into triple figures.

Getting back to Tom MacW's original question, namely:

"Is there a underlying inferiority complex among a group of modern golf architects? And might that attitude contribute to the sad treatment of many great old courses?"

I think not.  I think, rather, that there is a lot of ego and testosterone involved, and this is not new, but as old as the profession.  Take a look at the classic petulance of MacKenzie on the "Prestwick" thread to convince yourself that these old guys could play the "I'm OK, you're a twit!" card with the best of them.

Regardless of this, just seeing those old warhorses Mucci and Paul pacing off against each other, noses sorting, hooves scraping the ground and references and metaphors flying through cyberspace has made this thread valuable in and among itself.

Happy Century, T Mac!

Rich
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2002, 07:40:01 PM »
Rich
I have no idea what you are talking about. You mean to tell me this thread started with me discussing some architects having an inferiority complex?

I think I recall saying something about a modern architect going out of his way to criticize the past masters as a way to elevate his work. Do you see a comparison between the present remodeling work done to Riviera, Merion, et al. and the work done by MacKenzie, Fowler, Colt and Duncan to the goofy Victorian designs? If I'm not mistaken Prestwick originally had 12 holes which crossed one another 15 times and five of the holes played directly over other greens -- if for only humanitarian reasons the course needed to be altered, if I'm not mistaken MacK was nominated for a Nobel prize.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2002, 09:21:02 PM »
Pat:

I don't know what's happened to this site or whether it's my computer but it's taking forever getting around on here!!

I think I made my feelings about as clear as I can on Fazio and Coore & Crenshaw and I really don't feel like diverging into a discussion about owners at this point. I don't know the Vintage course in Palm Springs at all or that owner.

Never have I ever indicated that an idea could not come from anywhere or from anybody for Bill Coore or any other architect, for that matter--and I don't know why that line of discussion comes up with you or where it's going. Of course any architect could get an idea from anyone or anywhere---so what?

TimW:

I did not mean to indicate that there was not a ton of permitting (or other complexities at Friar's Head). I really don't know about that. All I saw was photos of the property prior to construction, I visited the course a couple of times during construction and once at or near the end of construction. The project did take a long time to come to completion, I'm sure, particularly from the perspective of B. Talmadge. And I don't mean either that Coore & Crenshaw cannot get involved in that sort of thing.

Any other questions like that I'm sure Ken Bakst can answer if he chooses to. Frankly, I'm not speculating about any of those things and I'm sure Ken Bakst would prefer that too!

Pat Again:

Just forget about contaiment mounding at Friar's Head. It doesn't exist! And I have no idea what you're talking about with containment mounding hiding the road. If you're talking about that pile of dirt in the southeast corner of the property, all that hides is the where the individual pieces of a building are residing at the moment--it has absolutely nothing to do with anything--certainly not the golf course. You should either ask about that or realize that you are looking at a golf club that is still under construction!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2002, 09:07:58 AM »
TEPaul,

Even my untrained eye can differentiate between piles of dirt and  berms/mounds.  It is berms/mounds that will be covered in grass/flowers/shrubs (?) to block the view from the road into the property and block the view from the golf course onto the road.  Even your beloved C & C use this feature,
and there is nothing wrong with that.

It was my understanding that the only environmental issues were coastal.

TE, you can't ignore the use of the golf course in assessing it architectually, hence owners intent is a material factor in comparative discussions or evaluations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2002, 09:44:38 AM »
TE Paul:

Thanks.  The only point I was trying to make is that in the real world, some very worthwhile projects involve a lengthy and often expensive process before the artists we love so much and enlightened developers (e.g., Ken Bakst) can do their part to create something special.  I don't think it is speculation to suggest that Friar's Head is but one example.

I'll be interested to see if that other (Nicklaus?????) project out near NGLA ever comes about.

I'll also be interested in the locals long term perception of the Friar's Head project.  Ironically, one option for the site was a large real estate development.  I agree with Bill Talmadge that the golf course is certainly the far more environmentally friendly alternative.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2002, 09:57:32 AM »
Tim Weiman,

Most of us on this site would share your view regarding the desireability of a golf course versus housing, but, the rest of the world doesn't necessarily share our views.

Even in Jersey City, where a developer wanted to build a golf course on a landfill, environmentalists opposed it,.  Some even preferred housing to tainting the ground with chemicals used on golf courses, ON TOP OF A LANDFILL mind you.

So, while the choice seems obvious to us, others don't share our views, with some environmentalists prefering housing to the open spaces of a golf course.  Hard to believe isn't it ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2002, 12:22:58 PM »
Pat:

I agree with you about assessing and evaluating a golf course in the context of the intent of the owner/developer! And one of these days we are going to assess this constant remark of yours about "containment mounding" at Friar's Head in the context of the intent of the owner developer. (I notice you are now calling it berms/mounds instead of the "containment mounding" you used to refer to it as).

I know very well what you were looking at and we'll just see whether that's what you'll be looking at when the golf club is finished--no matter with or without flowers or whatever else you said on it!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2002, 01:47:10 PM »
TEPaul,

I could have misunderstood, but, I was told that would be the purpose of those mounds, barriers to the road/couirse, facilitating the entrance look as well.

What would you suggest as an alternative visual barrier to insure privacy, security and aesthetics ?

This wouldn't be the first time C & C used containment mounds, they did so just up the road at Easthampton.
It's not an architectual crime to do so, or admit to doing so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2002, 02:06:01 PM »
Pat:

"What would you (meaning me) suggest to insure a visual barrier for privacy, security and aesthetics?"

I wouldn't suggest, and either should you, in my opinion.

Containment mounding at Easthampton? Are we back to that subject and area where you used some analogy to a football field and it's yardage markers to try to proof some point about the height of something at Easthampton that includes some of the most beautifully crafted bunkering I've ever seen?

I'm generally on the lookout for obnoxious "containment mounding" on golf courses and if some exists at Easthampton, it sure fooled me!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2002, 02:12:45 PM »
Pat Mucci:

I'm well aware that the rest of the world doesn't share our view on the environmental aspect of golf courses.  That's why I made the comments I did to Tom Paul when I thought, perhaps unfairly, he was suggesting a firm like C&C wouldn't get involved with environmental challenges.

On the part about using chemicals, I remember spending a very enjoyable day with Bobby Raynum at the Atlantic during which Bobby expressed sympathy for the enviromental perspective and talked about how he tried to minimize chemical use.

Perhaps it is simply my background in the oil industry, but I'm convinced we shouldn't spend too much time being critical and should simply find ways to build courses with as much sensitivity to  environmental concerns as possible.  I'd rather that happen than have worthwhile projects killed altogether.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2002, 03:24:58 PM »
And yes, Ron Whitten is responsible for the total success of Brian Silva.
[/quote]
I don't think even Ron Whitten would have the temerity to say this.
As someone who hired Brian Silva before he had been named in any golf publication that I had ever read, I can say that in the case of Lookout Mountain and Black Creek Club, Silva was hired on the quality of his work. We met him because we called Geoff Cornish, whom we called because of his book on architecture. We subsequently visited Charlotte CC, Shaker Hills (an early work), Cape Cod National, and Waverly Oaks. We talked to people at Seminole, Fox Chapel, and Biltmore Forest as well. We interviewed several architects and talked to some more I know who were not interested in the job, but knew Brian and gave him good recommendation.
So, Ron Whitten's favorable reviews of Brian's work were not a factor- in fact, they came out subsequent to our own assessment of his work and its progress. I believe that it's Brian's work that is the ultimate reason for his success- and that the quality of Brian's work is why Ron Whitten gives him favorable reviews.
Doug Stein
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2002, 03:58:30 PM »
Doug,
That was exactly my point! (I was being facetious)

Whitten wasn't responsible for Silva. Silva was responsible for Silva.

Sometimes you have to inform Golf Digest Panelists of this.:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2002, 06:42:10 PM »
Don't read between the lines guys.  I never said Ron vaulted Brian to stardome.  I just know GD took some heat when they noted Brian as the golf architect of the year and suggested maybe they knew something that those complaining didn't!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2002, 05:39:48 PM »
Tommy,
That's what happens when you just scan the topic.
Or, in the famous words of Gilda Radnor's character on Saturday Night Live,
"oh. Never mind!" ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2002, 05:42:01 PM »
Mark,
" I never said Ron vaulted Brian to stardome."
Is that anything like Thunderdome? I bet Brain would like it if Tina Turner was there too! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2002, 04:46:23 AM »
Mark Fine,

Ross may well have set the precedent.  I would guess that a majority of his work is mediocre because of his lack of involvement.  However, this type of approach also allowed very talented people to participate in the design of courses, it provided opportunities, it brought into the profession a wealth of talented people.  

It is a common theme to assign precedence to the old masters for every thing that is good in golf architecture, like it seems common here to assign every thing bad to old man Jones.  Like others disciplines, there are probably absolute truths in golf and golf design, and these truths are constantly reintroduced and may even seem new depending upon the quality of analysis and collective memory of those involved in following the game at the time.  Some design features, particularly those related to strategy, which is the greatest truth to hold dear, have absolute qualities that will eventually be found by those serious students of the game.  In other words, not every golf hole or design feature that smells of the old masters should be assigned to being of them.  It is common to say of a new course that seems to be inspired by the old masters, the bunkers are Rossesque, or the architect must have been thinking of NGLA, or this architect recently played MacKenzie courses and this is a direct result of what he saw.  In some instances people are overt about wrapping the virtues of an old master around themselves.  No, a serious student of the strategic design of a course could display design qualities thought to have originated with an old master when in fact those design qualities came from within the modern designer through a process of serious study of the land, serious study of the game, personal introspection and critique, professional experimentation, resulting in design qualities that are not interpretations of old masters, but rather the maturation of the designer displayed by a flash of brillance that comes from having encountered the absolute truth.  Someone can not give you those absolute truths, they can write a book about them, talk about them, so on, but for you to get them it has to come boiling out from within.  You probably know the feeling from having encountered something that has an  absolute quality.  Depending upon your interests or life experiences, there are very few moments when you feel you have seen "the face of God", so to speak.   Some of us may never have that experience, but even having thought you did makes you want to keep going back for more.

That is why so many on this site should be careful for there are many out there that will profess a common bond with you, they have tried to assume the virtues of the old masters when in fact they have no such virtues within. If an old master were alive today, some whom claim to know him he would reject and say he does not know them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2002, 05:41:23 AM »
Kelly:

What a marvelous post! One of the things I've always hoped for with Golfclubatlas was to have more professional architects divulge what really does go through their minds.

Many of us would probably be surprised to hear those things. Many of us too are so inclined to wrap those that we admire or idolize in a cloak of idealism! And to even assume that every thought they had on design and every decision they made was motivated by some beautiful and pure grand design principle!

But if you can step into their worlds somehow, with even a modicum of detail, with real research or something that they actually worked with or off of in the field, for instance, you can see that their best efforts had warts or that some accident may have resulted in their best creation!

With the ones we call the old masters, I sometimes think if they could see how seriously we take them and what they thought and did and how they would really laugh at us. I try always to remember not to go too far with that thought though, because if you can even try to put yourself in their minds and in a particular place (say in the field or at the drawing board) you are impressed many times with how creative, commonsensical and inspired they really seemed to be!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2002, 09:26:48 AM »
I think I can sum up at least part of Kelly's ideas about some of the ideas/views expressed here by saying that from an architects perspective many make some whopping assumptions in describing either the mindset or "quality time" spent by golden age architects on projects.  Travel time alone didn't allow them the on site supervision we have today.

Ditto for the assumptive whoppers made on today's architects and their motivations, thought processes, and styles/fads.  For instance, I noted on the Travis thread that he was quite proud of the innovation of moving bunkers to the SIDES of the fairways to accommodate average players.  For this, he is a genius, but Fazio is a dolt 100 years later?

TEPaul, I thought I did try to give just what an architect is thinking (or perhaps, "What the hell were we thinking" in my posts.  But since you specifically asked, and I happen to be roughing some feature designs today, the rest of this post will detail what goes through a modern architects brain while designing a golf hole (edited for the sensibilities of golf atlas devotees, of course):



































 :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2002, 10:08:05 AM »
Jeff Brauer:

Wow, that's truly one of the most impressive and potential "blank canvas" concepts I ever did see! You're going to continue to go far my boy! You make some excellent points on the seriousness factor of some of this though. We should have a few topics on some of the hilarious stuff and snafus of some of the great ones too. I know for a fact that a hole or green that Tillinghast designed in the morning is far more humdrum or boring than those he was known to do later in the day!

You do help us out a lot when you talk about the creative process and getting it done. We all learn a lot form it. I thought I said I just wanted to see it from more architects--Doak's input that way would be great too. Maybe there are more than I know--I really don't know all the names on here.

The supers are great input too but many seem to have gone away. Where's Rewinski and Curry been for instance?

RJ Daley mentioned some of the shapers and such too. I would love to hear from some of them on here someday too.

I would love to hear from green chairman too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2002, 10:19:08 AM »
Jeff Brauer - Where within the Travis discussion is it mentioned

"that he was quite proud of the innovation of moving bunkers to the SIDES of the fairways to accommodate average players." ?  

I could not find this reference within that discussion and I would disagree with whomever said it.

I am not one to ususally bash architects (except for one currently raping my home course) but I see Travis' work being extremely natural, utilizing flat and unusually severe properties equally well.  His routings are as good as any I've seen and his knack for finding perfect greensites is as good as most of the fine Donald Ross courses I've played. His green contouring is complex and severe.  He utilized blind shots repeatedly and he certainly was not averse to using central and cross hazards.  He is as far away from Fazio in design philosophies as I can think of. I think you really missed the boat by trying to equate Fazio out of play eye candy with Travis' hazards.

If Fazio ever designed a short par 4 like the first hole at Garden City Golf Club I would personally bow down and write him a fan letter. This hole features large central hazards that offrer the choice of left or right or layup or drive the green.  The tee shot is mostly blind to boot!  

If Fazio ever got to the Westchester CC property, he would blast away and bulldoze away all the unique features of that wonderful land.  A hole like #4 at Westchester would never be built yet it is a joy to play as are most of the other blind and semi-blind shots on that course.  

Travis may have thought about accommodating average players when he built a course but he didn't do this with "eye candy" that is out of play.  His designs are of interest to play over and over.  I'm not sure that you can say that about Fazio courses. I don't want to get into a pissing contest here about Fazio and why he is criticized but your point is way off base!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #120 on: January 08, 2002, 11:22:19 AM »
Geoffrey,

I got that out of the link to the Bob Labbance article, as quoted below:

"The architectural tenets Travis integrated into his design work were every bit as visionary. At the time Travis plotted the Ekwanok Country Club in Vermont in 1899, most of the bunkering in the U.S. was perpendicular to the line of play, demanding carries that crack players easily negotiated, but that left novices in terror. Instead, Travis placed the hazards laterally, parallel to the flow of the hole, giving the dubs a clear path, but forcing the better golfers to conquer their drift or pay the price.

Of course, the words "proud of" came from me, and possibly the author, who was enthusiastic about many of Travis' "ahead of his time" accomplishments.  So, apparently you disagree with his biographer, Bob Labbance.  I will admit, it is probably unfair of me to take one comment out of context to make any point about someone who's work I don't really know.  I have only seen Toledo, Garden City, and a course in Toronto who's name escapes me now.

Architecturally, the comments show me, that like race reations, politics, etc. that the canvass of golf design ideas is a mosaic, not as black and white as it appears when reading many posts.  In a low tech era, (where these discussions were had face to face) people who thought of such things probably had the same philosophical debate of designing for all players, especially since Golf in America was going through its first great expansion, and surely suffered from a fair number of hacks, then as now.

Travis was obviously a deep thinker about many golf related items.  How this comment jives with some of the cross bunkers at Garden City, I don't know, other than to guess that 1) it was an early effort, 2) his philosophy evolved, 3) who the heck says anyone needs to be 100% consistent, and he may have woke up one day and said "I'll give it a try" or 4) a well meaning club member forced it on him, because he wanted his home course "tougher".

I have read all/most of the same books anyone else has read.  My take on the differences in Golden Age vs. Modern philosphies is that they are more similar than different, and that those men faced similar problems to what we face today.
There really were't all that many cross bunkers in the Golden Age, and the process of removing most of the ones there began almost immediately at it's close, with the start of the great depression.

I believe the three major differences strategically between then and now are reduction of diagonal carry bunkers in favor of lateral bunkers, as described in the article, reduction of superfulous bunkers in general, and perhaps the use of more water owing to irrigation needs.  Not a sign of the apocalypse, just a natural evolution in architecture, all things considered.

Style wise, there were gingerbread bunkers in both eras.  Why Tillies are good and Fazio's are bad, I cannot fathom.  No one has adequately explained that point of view to me, as of yet.  There are simple bunkers in both eras, as there are deep, shallow, decorative, save bunkers, or virtually any type of bunker you care to mention.  For every example of a better bunker from the Golden Age that you can show a defender of modern architecture, I can show you a better modern one than one from the Golden Age, etc.

As for blind shots, every writer from the golden age decries them as a rule.  The only difference is that Fazio and others of our day have the ability to overcome them, so we do.  Ross and others didn't like them, but were stuck with them more often.  

Personally, I prefer Tommy's approach of discussing one specific feature rather than taking on broad general topics as more instructive and educational.

Of course, I agree most of all with Pat Mucci when I say, "That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong".  Let the discussion begin/continue! :)



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

GeoffreyC

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #121 on: January 08, 2002, 11:52:11 AM »
With all due respect, Bob Labbance  can write what he wants but the facts are in the ground!  Travis used an abundance of central hazards and you yourself referred to lost bunkers not more then 120 yards off the tee.  

Were those lost bunkers there " to accommodate average players" or to provide interest and challenge to average players?  

You say that you and Fazio can now blast away all those terrible blind shots today so you do so.  Yet, do you deny their beauty, strategy and the challenges of playing holes like #4 at Westchester or #1 at Garden City?  Those genius natural holes would by your own admission NOT be built today.  They are obsolete and out of fashion to you and Fazio.  

What kind of BETTER holes would you replace them with?

If Ross was "stuck" with the blind shots at lets say Plainfield CC then I'd sure like to see what better could be done today with that property!

Fazio is "known for" placing his hazards to the side where they look pretty but don't necessarily  play any strategic role in playing the hole.  I don't think Travis is "known for" the same thing therefore I think your analogy is totally wrong.

Fazio is "known for" blasting away all remnants of blind features and said so in his book.  Travis certainly created some of the finest blind features on golf holes seen in American architecture.  I don't think most of these holes could be improved on by eliminating the blind features.

That's just my opinion and I don't think I'm wrong  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #122 on: January 08, 2002, 01:39:33 PM »
Geoffrey,

The cross bunkers I saw at Toledo were in fact flanking bunkers, about 120 yards from the tee on each side of the fairway.  If there were central bunkers at one time, they have been obliterated.  However, most of the holes look original, although Art Hills did about 4 new holes to get a practice area near the pro shop at the clubs request.

Another interesting feature (I thought) of Toledo is that Travis routed holes 1-4 along the scenic Maumee river.  Later, Hills, or the club, changed that to 16-18, with the short, uphill par 4 4th eliminated.  Just another trend in design, most likely inspired by stroke play taking over from match play.

I also have to say, echoing TEPaul a bit, that I walked all the greens at Toledo and didn't see any revelations that the architect was doing anything other than pushing up a functional, minimally sized green.  they were similar in size, and kind of squarish, like Langford or Raynor, tipped back to front and heavily bunkered.  I did not see a Redan, or any other classic concept greens, just a bunch of old style greens.  Also, no blind holes there, except the defunct 4th.  Frankly, if I didn't know it was Travis, it could have been a club member designing them.  Not too say it wasn't cool in its own right, but it didn't have so much thought put into it that it ranked as an all time great.  Same for the course I saw in Canada, although I have to say neither approached Garden City, his acclaimed first effort in his backyard (probably explaining its quality)

I'll grant you that there are both many different viewpoints on architecture, as well as some cool holes that don't fit normal expectations.  I think even Tom Fazio says that.  And I doubt anyone could come up with better than Plainfield, et al, but you don't really know.  I bet Ross would come up with a better course if he came back to design it at the end of his career, because I'll bet he learned a bit from every course he did.

If you are designing a course today, particularly a public one where you assume a high degree of daily play is from first time players, you feel pressure and obligation to make things visible, for a lot of reasons.  It seems that most golfers believe that total vision is good.  (The two hundred that don't seem to post here regularly) It seems they accept it on old courses, just because "thats the way it was done in those days". They criticize it in modern courses, perhaps because they expect more or know it can be eliminated.  And that is before considering the number of lawyers working today.
 :(

Thats what Fazio is saying.  I have to say, basically, I agree, even though I love the old courses.  I try to work a few blind and/or quirky holes per course, but seems to be the limit for owners and golfers alike.  So, most of us design for the here and now, and hopefully the future.  I think some of the love of old courses is nostalgia, and the charm that a maturing golf course acquires.  The smaller scale of older courses is also quite charming.  

I don't mind other opinions, or arguing with mine, but I am at a disadvantage in Texas, not seeing many NE courses.  Perhaps we could argue over specific examples of central bunkering, say using "golden age of golf design" as a common reference?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #123 on: January 08, 2002, 02:24:00 PM »
Jeff,

Beyond Garden City, I think that CC of Scranton, Hollywood, and Ekwanok are probably better examples of Travis's work, if you are in the area sometime again.

If you want to see some great greens, you could do worse.

Speaking of central bunkering from Travis, Tommy Naccarato, do you still have the aerial photos from Patrick Mucci of Hollywood in the 30s?  

It's astounding.  Tommy...please, please, please post it again!!! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: GCA and tastemeking
« Reply #124 on: January 08, 2002, 02:52:18 PM »
Jeff

You will get NO argument from me with your last reply.  What you said makes perfect sense. I wasn't trying to pick a fight or start ANOTHER Fazio bashing thread but the analogy you made didn't sit right with me based on my (limited) experiences with Travis courses.

I wish Tommy would post that old Hollywood aerial.  Its amazing.  Hollywood is one place I'm absolutely going to see next spring.

Jeff- its a shame that the  Toledo course was not special.  You really should make a trip to the Northeast again to see some of these gems.  I think Tom Paul was urging you in the past to come up and see Yale and I'd be happy give you the tour. If you also saw Westchester CC or even Round Hill you would see what was done on these dramatic properties with limited earthmoving and you would see the complex greens Travis built.  His courses that I've seen seem to be built for his game. They are not too long, require accurate play, encourage the ground game and offer great short game opportunities around the greens.

I guess by building courses suited to his game he didn't do anything much different then Jack Nicklaus  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »