Buda IX – Epilogue

[James Boon]

I suspect plenty of people have photos to post as well as tales of woe and joy in equal measures! Therefore, I’ve taken the liberty of starting a thread to wrap up this years Buda. The original thread can be found here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46406.210.html

As the Victorious Rest of the World Captain, Bill McBride has already let on, the final result of this event was a win for RoW, 19 v 15. It was still pretty close going into the second day fourballs but GB&I took quite a beating, losing the series of matches 4 v 1, so despite a gallant fightback in the singles, its hats off to all the Americans as well as their South African and German team mates. But its not all about the result, so moving swiftly on...  

Now, I can’t go any further without thanking both of the Captains, Bill McBride and GB&I Captain Peter Mallalieu! Also, both Craig Disher and Tony Muldoon for their organisational skills leading up to the event, but especially to Mr Muldoon or should that be Michael Parkinson, for his splendid efforts on Thursday evening working with our guest speaker Jess Stiles from the Tom Simpson Society.
http://www.tomsimpson.org.uk/index.htm

Firstly a snapshot of Hankley Common, scene of the first days foursomes and fourballs.

The delightful old pavilion and now professionals shop. If only they had managed to get half as much character into the new clubhouse


A stunning autumnal morning that would soon give way to unseasonably hot weather, but to start, the cobwebs on the gorse and heather looked fantastic


Looking back to the 3rd green and 4th tee, you can see the open heathland beyond. This open heathland made for a fantastic setting for the course.


Pick of the bunch, must surely have been the par 3 7th, 180 yards across plenty of heather, to a green split into 4 distinct segments



My second favourite hole, was the closing par 4, 430 yards downhill slightly, doglegging to the right, and then to a bunkerless green, but with a large hollow just short




And a few signs from the course, in true Mayhugh style, who unfortunately couldn’t make it this year, starting with a very interesting Out of Bounds…




It was great to see some old friends and to make new ones, as well as the honour of meeting Golf's Most Beloved Figure, Ran Morrissett, but I think my best new friend, or indeed love, may well be Liphook GC. I’m working on a full photo thread at the moment, but here are a few highlights…

The clubhouse as seen when approaching from the car park


The view on the first, looking down the closing hole


Thursday afternoon fourballs about to tee off, from left to right, Craig Disher, Mike Whitaker behind, Ben Stephens, Ran Morrissett, Captain McBride, Drinkin’ Joe, Mark Pearce, Captain Mallalieu


Ben Stephens, Robin Hiseman, Mike Whitaker and Ran Morrissett








On the way to a good hiding from Craig Disher and Philip Gawith, partnering Mark Chaplin




Liphook’s answer to the Church Pews?


Looking back to the 3rd green while walking down the 4th


On the tee of the par 3 7th, with the green to the right and 8 beyond, while the 13th goes off to the left, a great all round view!


The approach to the par 5 13th


Did someone say road and railway crossing???




And more Mayhugh’esque magic! I think they like their signs…










Full photo tour of Liphook to follow shortly! But I look forward to seeing and reading about others peoples experiences!

Thank you all once again, and hope to see many of you next year if not before!

Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

Bellisimo!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

James, Fabulous photos. Two great courses. I'm so glad that the weather was so unseasonably welcoming to our guests. I had hoped to be there, not to play but just to enjoy the friendship, but hopefully another time. Can't wait for the course photos. Thank you, Mark.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Great post James, super pics. Just to be antagonistic (and because you beat me ;-) I'll tell the two things I didn't like about Liphook:

• No world class running game. The green contours deflect rather than feed and are generally too difficult to get it close, whereas aerial shots "drop and stop".
• A collection of good and great holes, but the total experience is not more than the sum of its parts. Compared to Hankley the visuals are less consistent, the routing doesn't flow as naturally and there is a bit of unproductive walking involved, especially the road crossings.

Otherwise it's a great course, obviously. Loved the quirk, the strategies etc. - still think, however, that at Hankley there is something that ties the individual holes together into a seamless experience that transcends the golf. The golf at Liphook is better. But Hankley is the better course. If that makes any sense

Ulrich

[Marty Bonnar]

Did any of you boys get a chance to take a walk to the top of the hill over there by the 7th at Hankley? The view from up there of the rest of the land owned by the club is sensational. Unfort I think the Army still likes to use that area for dashing about in tanks and generally being decent and military!
FBD.

[John Mayhugh]

James,
Glad you guys had a great event.  Sorry I missed it.  Hankley & Liphook both look like must sees one of these days.  Thanks for the photos, including some entertaining signs. Beware of adders?!

[Mark Pearce]

Ulrich,

I know what you mean in both of your points but for me the one-dimensionality of the golf at Hankley could never make it a superior course to the much more interesting Liphook.  I guess all that road crossing has become such a feature of English golf that I don't object to it that strongly.  Liphook is only, IMHO, let down by the slightly mundane stretch fromn 14-17, of which 14 could be an all world short par four if they took the tress on the inside of the dog leg out and did something with the bunkering, 15 and 17 are fairly blah and 16 feels like it is very nearly a good hole but I can't put my finger on why it doesn't quite work, though I'm sure it's the tee shot that needs improving.

Asd to the running game, I guess we really haven't had much of that in the north of the country this summer, so I didn't really notice it until yesterday when I played at Newbiggin (a local part-links on the slightly rough end of the spectrum) where my lob wedges at the first flew high, landed softly by the pin and bounced 30 yards past.  I don't know whether Liphook's softness was due to weather or watering but it wasn't as soft as Hankley, I thought.

[Scott Warren]

Mark P:

the one-dimensionality of the golf at Hankley

Could you elaborate, please?

[Adam Lawrence]

James,
Glad you guys had a great event.  Sorry I missed it.  Hankley & Liphook both look like must sees one of these days.  Thanks for the photos, including some entertaining signs. Beware of adders?!

Heath is great habitat for lots of things, including snakes. I encountered one slithering across the fairway on the third at Burhill a couple of months ago.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I'm with Mark here.

I think the setting of Hankley is sensational.  The absolute best in the heathlands.  The design of the course falls short of doing the setting justice.  Too many of the holes are linear, one dimensional and just a tad bland.  I'll always enjoy playing there because it is so beautiful, but architecturally it just doesn't float my boat.    Just keep it straight and out of the heather.  Some pretty mundane bunkering on the front nine too, especially on 8. 

The fun improves dramatically with the doglegged holes, so special credit to 3, 10 and 17.  I like the woodland setting of 14 and 18 is a strong finish too.  7 is the best hole by far, but I don't like the 11th much.  The green setting looks contrived in amongst all that heather.

Hard to pinpoint exactly what it is, but on a 10 round split Liphook would win 7 - 3.

[Mark Chaplin]

Liphook - 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 13 & 18 are all receptive to the running game.

Ulrich you probably hit too many wedges off those yellow tees 

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

I agree with pretty much what Robin said.  After what you and Mark C have said about Hankley in the past I was really looking forward to playing it but came away very disappointed.  It's a very beautiful course in a gorgeous setting, there's no denying that.  However, the course lacks much interest.  On hole after hole the player is asked to hit a fairway (it doesn't really matter which part of the fairway) then hit the green.  7 is a really tremendous hole, it has to be said but I don't think I had to give much thought to how to play a hole until 15 and even that isn't too big a decision.  18 is the second best hole but comes far too late in the round to rescue it.  Not the most interesting set of greens (7 aside) either.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad course and, as said above, it's very beautiful but it's the least interesting of the heathland courses I have played.  I know I wasn't alone in thinking this.  I think Tony got it right when he suggested that this blonde may not be dumb but she isn't very bright.  Several others, including GMB, expressed similar views.

Liphook, on the other hand, was a very pleasant surprise.  Lots going on there and a really tremendous set of greens.

[Ben Stephens]

Scott,

I also agree with what Robin and Mark said about Hankley - it is a bit one dimensional course - I am sure there is room for improvement.

GCA'ers

Liphook was wonderful and the reworking of its bunkers really improved the aesthetics of the course. Hole 14 would definitely be better if they thinned the trees in the middle and created an 'tight' island fairway on the right and made the bunkers more visible off the tee. Every course has its strength and weakness - both 15 and 16 grew on me the more I played it - 15 with its diagonal Biarritz style green and 16 with its deceptive sloping fairway meaning the best tee shot was to the right and its front to back downsloping green. 17 could be a lot better as the other par 3's had such high standard and beauty.

The biggest surprise for me this week was West Hill - a wonderful heathland course in Woking (one of the three W's) where I played with Giles Payne and Mark Pearce (Conrad Gamble, Ian Dickson and Richard Goodale were in the other group) cheers Canary for organising the pre-BUDA game!

Cheers
Ben

[Mark Chaplin]

Couldn't disagree more, Liphook has great greens but makes Walton Heath appear a sanctuary of peace and quiet.

Playing off the purples Hankley is one of the tougher heathland courses, probably on par with Sunningdale New. The back nine is superb -

10 requires a drive as far left as possible to open up the green, flirt with the trees on the right from the tee and only a cut wood or long iron will find the green.

11 from the back tee the green is set at a slight angle to the line requiring a slight draw to a false fronted green.

12 is a real tiger hole again requiring a slight draw to hold the fairway. Miss the green right and you are in an RAF style grassy hollow, yuk!

13 a modest par 5 whose main difficulty is finding a safe play if you miss the fairway from the tee.

14 is a great long par 4 that plays shorter if you are long off the tee but wherever you drive it's a mid to short iron from a downhill lie to an uphill green. Can get very fast to putt on.

15 classic little short par 4 that's actually pretty easy with a 3 iron/wedge, sadly it's always a temptation to go for the heroic carry and try and drive or get very close to the green. One usually fails miserably.

16 neat par 3 playing up hill, tough invisible bunker on the right to catch out the unwary

17 this time a brave draw along the tree line sets up the best line to the green which sits diagonally to the fairway. Play safe down the right and the approach is over a bunker and heather affair that has cost me a 6 more than once.

18 unique in heathland with the green set over a deep waste area. The drive is always further left than you think.

[Ben Stephens]

Chappers

I got a verbal warning from Canary for dangerous driving on the 15th at Hankley which luckily landed straight in the right hand side greenside bunker  next year Ill bring hard hats for the guys in front of me!!!

I would love to play the course of the purple tees (never seen one of this colour on a golf course before) like Hollinwell off the blues I can see it would be a better course + more challenging! I would have put in more bunkers to make it more of a strategic course rather than a runway style course.

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

The suggestion seems to be that the driving is pedestrian at Hankley, but as I think through the round I see strong reward for drives that challenge the A-Line at 3, 5, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17 and 18.

The par threes are a great set, with maximum variety in yardage and shot requirement.

Great, varied approaches to the par fours and fives: greens that run away from you, greens above your head, greens open at the front, greens requiring aerial approach, long irons, short irons...

Fantastic greensites at 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 13, 14, 15 and 18.

The greens themselves are perhaps quite flat on the whole and could use more internal interest, but to be fair you can say the same of many Heathland courses.

Were you guys able to play your own ball for one of the rounds, or was it 36 holes of foursomes?

[Ben Stephens]

Were you guys able to play your own ball for one of the rounds, or was it 36 holes of foursomes?

Scott

Most of us played foursomes in the morning and fourballs in the afternoon

I agree with the greensite comments apart from 2 I thought it was an 'ok' hole and should the first have been from the 1st tee to the 2nd green? would that make it a better hole - a short par 5. Hankley had more what ifs than Liphook.

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

I forgot perhaps the most important element: the routing.

Hankley is as well routed as any course I have played. The series of small triangles (1-4, 6-8, 10-12, 13-15) connected by a hole or two in between is genius, particularly in such an open site where the wind can do its thing.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Mark (Chaplin):
Just because a green is open in front does not necessarily mean it is receptive to the running game. First off, the green surrounds at Liphook were often not cut low enough, balls would get entangled, especially since the course wasn't playing fiery fast. Take the first hole, which some tried to attack with a running shot. If you hit it down the middle, then the slopes deflect the ball away into the right rough. If you hit it down the left side, then in the 3 or 4 efforts I have seen the ball got entangled and never ran all the way down onto the putting surface. So what is the successful running shot supposed to look like on this hole?

In contrast I have seen many longer players attacking the green through the air, everything from mid to long irons and hybrids just dropped and stopped. If you get a predictable result from the aerial approach and no chance to make the green with a running shot, then I would declare this hole to not accommodate the running game.

On to the second hole you proposed: that hole has heavy rough 50 yards in front of the green. No running game there at all.

Mark (Pearce):
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your line of reasoning. I believe that all of us more or less agree on the analysis of the two courses, so what it ultimately comes down to is how the pros and cons are weighted by an individual player - aka personal preference.

Ulrich

[Paul Nash]

I'm with Scott and Mark on this one - the best setting of any heathland course and mostly excellent holes - although I really don't like the last 100 yards of 17! I thought there was a lot of strategy in driving but it can at first appear a bit subtle.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

As an absentee I am thrilled that this debate has ensued. Obviously both courses have their merits and demerits. My personal favourite of the two is Liphook, but I haven't played it since the late 1980s so it may be completely different now in terms of set up. For a start, you don't have to cross the A3 any more. I was playing there on a day when a lady member crossing that road was killed by a lorry. It was a grim sight and a chastening experience even though I didn't actually see the accident take place. I am also delighted that West Hill has come in for positive feedback. It usually loses out to Woking and Worplesdon but it's not that far behind. I am glad you had such a good experience and that the debate will last for many a gin more.

[Sean_A]

Oooooohhh - this is looking like a split decision.  I consulted Doak and he didn't seem impressed by either course, but we know he was prone to the odd mistake given his fly by night scheduling.  Maybe this is a case similar to bunker sluts - heather whores.  I must say photos of HC have never impressed me all that much, perhaps that is why I never made the journey down.  At some point I shall need to rectify this.  

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

  I think Tony got it right when he suggested that this blonde may not be dumb but she isn't very bright.  Several others, including GMB, expressed similar views.

There goes my invite back....


Nice contrast between the two, with one factor not stated so far being the consistently flat lies you get at Hankley.   

At Liphook I witnessed a match between one of our longest hitters and one of our shorter ones, finish all square. The long player went one up on the short 17th and his opponent won the three shot 18th.   The other match was between one of the dumbest golfers in the group and one of the smartest, who won 4 up.  Both matches were testimony to the quality of the course.


They made an excellent pairing and show that Heathland Golf can be a no of different things. 

With the choices and the weather we were blessed.

[Mark Chaplin]

Ulrich your compaint appears to be poor green keeping, which I agree with, rather than poor design.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark C (and Scott),

There's no denying that Hankley, from the back tees (where, incidentally Rich Goodale and Giles played a singles match from) is a bear of a course.  I just don't see the strategy on the drives.  Yes there are some pretty green sites but they hide (as Scott suggests) a set of pretty flat greens.  As Mark suggests the drive on 18 is a little more interesting but as the 18th it's a little too late.

Mark R,

As much as I was expecting to be wowed by Hankley and disappointed I was expecting to be disappointed (for the very reason that you mention, that it is generally rated 3rd of the 3 Ws) by West Hill and was pleasantly surprised.  I also played Worplesdon for the first time this year and, in my book, based on 2 plays only of each course, I prefer West Hill.  The highs at Worplesdon may be higher but the lows are lower.