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Sean_A

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 03:28:38 AM »
Kyle

Thanks.  I find the look of the hole very interesting.  Its difficult to get a sense of the elevation change from tee to green.  What is the change?  Does the hole normally play into a headwind?  The tee looks to be slightly off-centre rather than straight over the front bunker - is this the case?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Eric Smith

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 07:38:05 AM »
Jed,

Have you been to Dismal?

Anthony Gray

Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 07:47:34 AM »
 

Why do you think the new love affair with Dismal River has come about. 

Jim:

The question isn't directed towards me, but I think it has to do with:

1. Chris Johnson's willingness to share this treasure with others.

2. Doak butt-boyism regarding the new course

3. The general "sheep" mentality of GCA (and people, in general).


  You are the biggest butt-boy on the site Jed. How many times do you have to kiss ass for playing Cypress.

  Anthony


JNC Lyon

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 07:53:23 AM »
 

Why do you think the new love affair with Dismal River has come about. 

Jim:

The question isn't directed towards me, but I think it has to do with:

1. Chris Johnson's willingness to share this treasure with others.

2. Doak butt-boyism regarding the new course

3. The general "sheep" mentality of GCA (and people, in general).

1) Yes, Chris Johnston has helped out immensely.

2) Doak is a great architect, and he builds great golf courses.  It's no wonder people are excited.

3) People love to chalk up many things on this site to a "sheep mentality."  Personally, I think it's a load of crap.  Most GCAers with whom I've played golf and hung out are well-educated and thoughtful.  They also tend to have strong, well-formed opinions on many things, golf being just one of them.  So I have a very tough time with people on this site being characterized as "sheep" when it comes to any sort of discussion.  Hell, I can't even count how many times I have disagreed on GCA with folks whose opinion I value greatly.  That's why GCA is so great.  We all have a common interest here, but we aren't "sheep."  That leads to spirited, knowledgeable discussions time and time again.

In terms of Dismal River, it is a very polarizing golf course on this site.  Some of this polarization may occur because of the wild land and bold architecture.  However, I think a lot of the criticism comes from a Nicklaus stigma.  I, myself, was a little wary of driving out into the middle of the great plains to play a Nicklaus design.  Then, I got there and played the golf course four times in three days.  I got know each of the golf holes, see what shots you could and couldn't hit, and marvel at how the course is draped beautifully over the rugged landscape.  From what I can see, most who have played the course a few times come away very impressed.  Those who rip it have played it once or have never seen the course at all.  If anything, the sheep mentality is on the "anti-Dismal" side of the fence.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 07:59:42 AM »

1. Chris Johnson's willingness to share this treasure with others.

2. Doak butt-boyism regarding the new course

3. The general "sheep" mentality of GCA (and people, in general).

Jed:

I'll disagree with part of your list.

Surely, Chris J. is more affable than the previous management of the course.  That was not a small part of the problems the course had upon opening.

But, I certainly don't understand why anybody who's a fan of mine would necessarily change their opinion of the Nicklaus course.

As for the "sheep" mentality of this web site, I think it's more profound than that.  Sadly, most of the critical voices who were here three years ago are now gone, or largely silent, and frankly, half of the most vocal young guys don't know their head from their ass.

The biggest change at Dismal River between the course I saw in 2007-ish and the current layout is that most of the greens were modified in the two years after opening.  Whether one would characterize those changes as "tweaks" is a matter we could debate, but it made a big difference.

Also, the nature of design at its extremes is that one person's "great" is another person's "overkill".  We've just got more of the former people than the latter here now.


Mike Hogan

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2011, 08:08:39 AM »
Dismal #5 View from Tee


Side View of Green.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2011, 08:30:24 AM »
"Also, the nature of design at its extremes is that one person's "great" is another person's "overkill".  We've just got more of the former people than the latter here now."

This is an interesting theory.

I assume it's true, but how could it possibly be?  I thought I'd helped turn the tide around here in the completely other direction, i.e. that one person's "great" is another person's "bland".  (I also thought the growing love affair with Tobacco Road was a one-off.)

Peter (one of the 50%)



« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 08:44:45 AM by PPallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2011, 08:55:10 AM »
If abstinence were easy everyone would be doing it.

I just can't let this go for the simple reason that I give so few compliments that when the opportunity presents itself I have to grab the moment.

The number one reason Dismal is in the midst of an unprecedented turnaround is due to the fine work of Jagger Mandrell and his tireless staff. Dismal has gone from a disaster in every facet to the finest maintained course I have ever played.  From fairways to greens to the reduction of fescue thickness Jagger has set the standard for fun golfing that every super should aspire to emulate.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2011, 09:17:59 AM »
I respect Brad and admire the work he has done to promote the game.

John Kavanaugh and Brad Klein agreeing on something  -- this Dismal River place reminds me more and more of 'Field of Dreams' -- I expect to hear about CB Mac hitting chip shots in the sand hills with the son he never met from his dalliances at Chicago Golf while Alistair McKenzie is reunited with Marion Hollings and nearby Melvyn and Old Tom take an EZGO around the course, Is this Heaven? No it's Neeebraski. We should get the Israelis and Palestinians out there pronto as there's something supernatural going on.



Buck, Dismal is special but the entire region is as well.  I could see those guys you mention popping around from Dismal to Sand Hills to Ballyneal to Prairie Club, etc.

It seems to me to be the final frontier for American golf.  The drive to Mullen is ecstacy for a gca nut.  Golf hole after golf hole, golf course after golf course.  Amazing!

And, yes, John the job being done by Jagger is incredible.  The greens are amazing.  The rough less thick and penal.  And the fairways firm.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2011, 09:25:44 AM »
Even though you wouldn't know it from looking at the picture, isn't the front left pin way more difficult than the back-right one (where a big bowl is formed)?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2011, 09:29:50 AM »
I enhjoyed Brad's reveiew, but I dont remember the par threes being short.
I did play them all the way back, but remember hitting 5 iron into 5, about a three iron into the green with bunker hole, and a 4 iron to the par three towrads the end maybe 17?
But that is probably just a matter of tees played.
As for number 5..to me it is quite simple, the false front is way too steep and severe, take care of that and the hole is pretty good.
But a good saddle par three needs a little less severity on the false front to be truly playable...imo

Jim Franklin

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2011, 09:33:54 AM »
I don't remember the threes being that short either. I played back tees too though. I also played when it first opened so maybe some of the greens have been softened and will continue to soften.
Mr Hurricane

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2011, 09:42:37 AM »
I enhjoyed Brad's reveiew, but I dont remember the par threes being short.
I did play them all the way back, but remember hitting 5 iron into 5, about a three iron into the green with bunker hole, and a 4 iron to the par three towrads the end maybe 17?
But that is probably just a matter of tees played.
As for number 5..to me it is quite simple, the false front is way too steep and severe, take care of that and the hole is pretty good.
But a good saddle par three needs a little less severity on the false front to be truly playable...imo

Michael,

Brad certainly played the middle set, though your club selection is in sync with his point that one uses about the same club on each.  You didn't say what you hit on 3, but on 5, 10, 15 you went 5i,3i,4i. When I played the back I hit 4i,4i,6i(very front pin) and 5i.

No doubt the holes play to similar lengths but IMO each has a very distinct feel.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2011, 10:02:34 AM »
All

Here are some reasons "why", as previously posted here:  Buckle up - it is a bit of a read.

The course has matured, it has evolved, it wasn't perfect the day it opened.  Like anyone else, we are open to both criticism and praise.  We enjoy feedback and participate in discussions.

Irrigation has been calibrated and brought under control, making native rough less penal.  During grow-in and with immature turf,  the native was a bear (no pun intended) no different from Awarii today or Sand Hills early on.  Selective mowing of native similar to Sand Hills.

Continuity of a great staff, mission, and energy.  The work has been very hard and all are focussed on one direction.  

Focus on fun and away from pretentious.  Warm and welcoming.  Kind.

Green speeds have been made consistent and they aren't too fast.  Nor are they too slow.  Goldilocks.

Several controversial greens have been softened and 18 was moved.  We haven't been afraid to make improvements - all courses do, and have.

More people have played it, many now more than once, and appreciation grows with familiarity as I believe Brad pointed out.

Great overall club experience - a combination of unique golf, great accomodations, great clubhouse atmosphere, great food.

Other than irrigation and green speeds, since I wasn't here, I often wonder why the course was panned as too hard when it simply isn't.  How much did arrogance play in bad reception early on?  My guess...plenty.  

Why the recent positive vibe at Dismal River?  > realization that Dismal River isn't Sand Hills, or Ballyneal and is very good in it own right.  Sand Hills green are much faster and Ballyneal's much slower - both work well for and help define them.  We love them, don't compete with them, and have our own identity.  I wish we could work more closely together.  Dismal River and Sand Hills have good relations and really do compliment each other on the "bucket list" visit, as does Ballyneal.  All of us accomodate limited outside play.  To me, Sand Hills and Ballyneal have a bit better "flow", Sand Hills is unbelievable and its ranking is well deserved.  Having probably played both Dismal and Sand Hills more than anyone, the difference between the courses is a lot closer that many think.  It's the same in the feedback we receive.  Believe it or not, many like Dismal River better.

Wild Horse is highly regarded as well - it is terrific and deserves every accolade it receives.  But, seriously, is it really better than Dismal River?  Is Shooting Star?  To me (and only to me), it isn't even worthy of debate.  On the "ten round test", how would YOU split play at Dismal River and Wild Horse?  Sand Hills and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Muirfield Village?  Dismal River and Bandon Dunes?  Ballyneal and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Shooting Star?  Castle Pines and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Pronghorn?  Lost Dunes and Dismal Rivver?  Butler National and Dismal River?  Estancia and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Pete Dye Golf Club?  

To me, and based upon feedback of people who visit the area, nearby Sand Hills, Ballyneal, and Wild Horse are rated well, and I agree 100%.  Point isn't that the others aren't good, they are quite good.  Its pretty clear and becoming ok to acknowledge... its pretty hard to argue Dismal River isn't clearly underrated.  Why?  Who cares.  It, too, is quite good.  


Take DRGC #5 discussed here, a short to medium yard uphill par 3, 150-160 yards, green is +/- 30 yards above the tee.  It certainly is a unique and tough hole and, thus, important in a match or round.  There is little question it is far less difficult, less severe, and less challenging than Sand Hills #13  which is longer, steeper, and faster.  You can find examples like this in several other places when closely comparing the two.  If Dismal River had Sand Hills #15 in its routing, I believe Dismal River/Nicklaus would be strongly panned for it - its a great but very tough long uphill par 4 into a very difficult green with a false front.  Compare the #2's - once you know each hole well, which is harder and which more fun?  Both Sand Hills and Dismal River have challenge and fun - forced carries, false fronts, internal contours, plenty of pitch.  Again, Sand Hills very much deserves its accolades - it is well earned, its a spiritual journey, and it is the best of a good bunch.  

Brad Klein doesn't much like Dismal #5.  Eric Smith loves it and thinks its the best hole at Dismal River.  Both have strong views and neither is wrong.  Welcome to golf!  I like both Brad and Eric, and neither's view of #5 changes that.  Like it or hate it, I enjoy seeeing the hole dissected and simply believe that the same "lens" should be applied equally among courses.  I'll touch the third rail here, I think #12 at ANGC is the most overrated par 3 in golf - a media creation.  Its a 150 yard par 3 over a pond for Pete's sake!  Freshening wind?  With all due respect, they don't know wind.  Feel free to disagree.

Tom's course will be very interesting, fun, and the back holes are unlike anything in the Sand Hills.  Will it be easy?  Nope.  Will it be fun?  You bet!  That's what Tom does.  It won't be boring nor free of deep discussion. This is an exciting project and Tom, his crew, and Dirt and his bunch have done a terrific job.  Will everyone like it?  Probably not. Will you be able to look closely and find things you don't like.  Certainly.  All of can do, and do, that anywhere.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2011, 10:03:06 AM »
Mark I agree, I just cannot remember three...try and describe it and I will probably remember.
But I totally agree they are all very distinctive and actually if I was rating..par threes would recieve a much hifgher rating, as I liked them.
I thought the back pin on the "bunker" hole was a little too much as the slope that seperates the two portions was again too severe...in my opionion the surounding sloes on those two particular par threes should be softened to enhance the holes...my favourite was the last one... to me a GREAT par three, no tricks straight away good hole.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2011, 10:12:03 AM »
Very nice and thoughtful post Chris.  I need to get back and see what you and your team has done there. 

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2011, 10:26:09 AM »
"...the nature of design at its extremes is that one person's "great" is another person's "overkill", "...

Hard to argue with that. But then you find those reactions to most kinds of art.

What makes gca different is that the features thought to be "overkill" often end up being neutered over time.

That doesn't happen to paintings or sculpture or music. Which is important, because people at some point got accustomed to the extremes of, say, Impressionism. It became a style of painting that was eventually applauded.

That's not what usually happens to extreme golf designs. They tend not to last long enough to benefit from that process in which people adjust to them and they are ultimatley accepted.

Also interesting is that that trend seems to go in only one direction in gca. Features get increasing neutered over time. It is rare that the reverse occurs.

Bob  



  
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:51:10 AM by BCrosby »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2011, 10:47:07 AM »
Chris,

Very well stated...there seems to be plenty of space in the dunesland to accomodate all, even the Prarie Club.  DR did take its fair share of criticsm in the early days and I'm glad to see that opinions have changed after more plays and people judging the product for what it is instead of who built it.

As for #5, from what I can see in pics, the hole looks terrific.  Looks like a big ol bucket of quirk to me....which I can never get enough of.  ;)

Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2011, 10:51:42 AM »
All

Here are some reasons "why", as previously posted here:  Buckle up - it is a bit of a read.

The course has matured, it has evolved, it wasn't perfect the day it opened.  Like anyone else, we are open to both criticism and praise.  We enjoy feedback and participate in discussions.

Irrigation has been calibrated and brought under control, making native rough less penal.  During grow-in and with immature turf,  the native was a bear (no pun intended) no different from Awarii today or Sand Hills early on.  Selective mowing of native similar to Sand Hills.

Continuity of a great staff, mission, and energy.  The work has been very hard and all are focussed on one direction.  

Chris-
Why no mention or comparison to The Prairie Club?
Just curious.
Pete


Focus on fun and away from pretentious.  Warm and welcoming.  Kind.

Green speeds have been made consistent and they aren't too fast.  Nor are they too slow.  Goldilocks.

Several controversial greens have been softened and 18 was moved.  We haven't been afraid to make improvements - all courses do, and have.

More people have played it, many now more than once, and appreciation grows with familiarity as I believe Brad pointed out.

Great overall club experience - a combination of unique golf, great accomodations, great clubhouse atmosphere, great food.

Other than irrigation and green speeds, since I wasn't here, I often wonder why the course was panned as too hard when it simply isn't.  How much did arrogance play in bad reception early on?  My guess...plenty.  

Why the recent positive vibe at Dismal River?  > realization that Dismal River isn't Sand Hills, or Ballyneal and is very good in it own right.  Sand Hills green are much faster and Ballyneal's much slower - both work well for and help define them.  We love them, don't compete with them, and have our own identity.  I wish we could work more closely together.  Dismal River and Sand Hills have good relations and really do compliment each other on the "bucket list" visit, as does Ballyneal.  All of us accomodate limited outside play.  To me, Sand Hills and Ballyneal have a bit better "flow", Sand Hills is unbelievable and its ranking is well deserved.  Having probably played both Dismal and Sand Hills more than anyone, the difference between the courses is a lot closer that many think.  It's the same in the feedback we receive.  Believe it or not, many like Dismal River better.

Wild Horse is highly regarded as well - it is terrific and deserves every accolade it receives.  But, seriously, is it really better than Dismal River?  Is Shooting Star?  To me (and only to me), it isn't even worthy of debate.  On the "ten round test", how would YOU split play at Dismal River and Wild Horse?  Sand Hills and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Muirfield Village?  Dismal River and Bandon Dunes?  Ballyneal and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Shooting Star?  Castle Pines and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Pronghorn?  Lost Dunes and Dismal Rivver?  Butler National and Dismal River?  Estancia and Dismal River?  Dismal River and Pete Dye Golf Club?  

To me, and based upon feedback of people who visit the area, nearby Sand Hills, Ballyneal, and Wild Horse are rated well, and I agree 100%.  Point isn't that the others aren't good, they are quite good.  Its pretty clear and becoming ok to acknowledge... its pretty hard to argue Dismal River isn't clearly underrated.  Why?  Who cares.  It, too, is quite good.  


Take DRGC #5 discussed here, a short to medium yard uphill par 3, 150-160 yards, green is +/- 30 yards above the tee.  It certainly is a unique and tough hole and, thus, important in a match or round.  There is little question it is far less difficult, less severe, and less challenging than Sand Hills #13  which is longer, steeper, and faster.  You can find examples like this in several other places when closely comparing the two.  If Dismal River had Sand Hills #15 in its routing, I believe Dismal River/Nicklaus would be strongly panned for it - its a great but very tough long uphill par 4 into a very difficult green with a false front.  Compare the #2's - once you know each hole well, which is harder and which more fun?  Both Sand Hills and Dismal River have challenge and fun - forced carries, false fronts, internal contours, plenty of pitch.  Again, Sand Hills very much deserves its accolades - it is well earned, its a spiritual journey, and it is the best of a good bunch.  

Brad Klein doesn't much like Dismal #5.  Eric Smith loves it and thinks its the best hole at Dismal River.  Both have strong views and neither is wrong.  Welcome to golf!  I like both Brad and Eric, and neither's view of #5 changes that.  Like it or hate it, I enjoy seeeing the hole dissected and simply believe that the same "lens" should be applied equally among courses.  I'll touch the third rail here, I think #12 at ANGC is the most overrated par 3 in golf - a media creation.  Its a 150 yard par 3 over a pond for Pete's sake!  Freshening wind?  With all due respect, they don't know wind.  Feel free to disagree.

Tom's course will be very interesting, fun, and the back holes are unlike anything in the Sand Hills.  Will it be easy?  Nope.  Will it be fun?  You bet!  That's what Tom does.  It won't be boring nor free of deep discussion. This is an exciting project and Tom, his crew, and Dirt and his bunch have done a terrific job.  Will everyone like it?  Probably not. Will you be able to look closely and find things you don't like.  Certainly.  All of can do, and do, that anywhere.


Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2011, 11:10:05 AM »
Regardless of your position with re: to Dismal River and #5, this is exactly what gca should be about - discussing and debating the merits of a golf holes and courses.  Certainly better than talking about Toad The Wet Sprocket (which is another good 80s and 90s band).  There is no right answer.   You just hope that everyone's opinion is well founded and educated.    

I think Chris got it right when he said "Brad Klein doesn't much like Dismal #5.  Eric Smith loves it and thinks its the best hole at Dismal River.  Both have strong views and neither is wrong."

Tom - I am sorry that you feel that the discussion on this site has gone downhill in the last several years.  While being new to the site, I did not opine until I felt that I had educated myself sufficiently on gca.  While I have no field experience in designing or constructing a golf course, I am fairly well read on the subject and try to provide valuable input to the topics on this forum.  For me it is pretty simple, I love golf courses.  

I have only played 2 of your courses - Pacific Dunes and Old MacDonald - and loved both of them.  In fact, as noted above, #7 at Old Macdonald is certainly one of my favorites (especially for its uniqueness - as stated above, I cannot compare it to any hole that I have ever played).  Further, I appreciate your input on the site.  If you disagree with something that I say on the forum, please let me know.  I may not agree with you, but I certainly will look critically at your input and consider whether my ideas are well founded or not - hopefully increasing my knowledge and appreciation of gca.  This type of discussion is what I want out of this forum.

  
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:13:02 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2011, 11:11:47 AM »
Views of the 5 green... the last one is shot from the 2nd tee box.






Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 11:49:27 AM »
Kalen - I did indeed forget to include Prairie Club.  It was an oversight, as they have had similar challenges and both courses there are terrific.  Prairie Club is an important part of the Sand Hills golf ecosystem.

Anthony Gray

Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2011, 12:06:09 PM »


  Hole 5 looks like a good hole to me. Nothing wrong with a guaranteed 5. It just takes away the left miss but allows for other misses. A fronting bunker would have been terrible. I like the open front.


   Anthony

 

Brandon Urban

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2011, 12:25:05 PM »
I have not been to Dismal, although I would love to make the trip.

#5, to me, looks like one helluva fun golf hole. I know if I had never seen pictures of it, came walking off the fourth green and saw it for the first time, I would be grinning from ear to ear. A challenge, sure. But I know I would be damn excited to take a swing at it.
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 01:07:27 PM »
"...the nature of design at its extremes is that one person's "great" is another person's "overkill", "...

Hard to argue with that. But then you find those reactions to most kinds of art.

What makes gca different is that the features thought to be "overkill" often end up being neutered over time.

That doesn't happen to paintings or sculpture or music. Which is important, because people at some point got accustomed to the extremes of, say, Impressionism. It became a style of painting that was eventually applauded.

That's not what usually happens to extreme golf designs. They tend not to last long enough to benefit from that process in which people adjust to them and they are ultimatley accepted.

Also interesting is that that trend seems to go in only one direction in gca. Features get increasing neutered over time. It is rare that the reverse occurs.

Bob  



Bob:  Very true, and it's been going on for decades ... the current thread about MacKenzie's lost greens at Sitwell Park being one prominent example.

However, the difference between "art" and golf course architecture is that course owners have to spend a lot to maintain their courses each year ... so, if a controversial design feature is not proving popular, there is financial pressure to change it.  To build something extreme, you have to have the right client.