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Brad Klein

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Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« on: September 26, 2011, 06:45:38 PM »
I'm coming around slowly to appreciate Dismal River. Here's my latest take on what's going on out there in Mullen, Nebraska.

http://www.golfweek.com/news/golf-travel/raters-notebook/

Michael George

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 07:10:22 PM »

Brad:

I enjoyed the review.  I think you do a great job with Golfweek and its rankings - especially the classic courses, where you seem to prefer great architecture with fun courses to boring architecture and difficult courses. Please keep up the good work.

I was glad to see that many of your comments on Dismal River mirror what is being said on this site lately.  However, I think John Kavanaugh and you have a disagreement on #5 at Dismal.  In his recent review of Dismal against Sand Hills, John says:

"The 5th at Dismal is perhaps the finest up hill par three ever built.  I love it so much that I have little trouble hitting the required shot while the majority of my playing partners go long. It is by definition a difficult hole."

One of the greatest things about golf course architecture is that 2 people with great knowledge of golf course architecture can disagree about a hole.  Kind of like art. 

I really respect both of your opinions and would love to know the reasoning behind both of your thinking.

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Brad Klein

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 07:40:50 PM »
I can't speak for anyone else. The 5th is not a saddle green; it's more like the bare naked back of a moving horse.

There's no room short or long or left. And there's lots of room elsewhere on the course for a decent hole to make up for this sin of a par-3.

Brad

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2011, 07:43:33 PM »
Brad - That is a fair and honest assessment of Dismal River. Well done.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Eric Smith

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2011, 07:45:55 PM »
Michael,

If I may? I, like everyone else I know who has played it, love the hole. I've said it before, it is probably my favorite out there. Certainly the tee shot is and I have yet to hit the green in regulation! Going to this weekend however...not leaving until I do!!

To me it's mostly an under clubbing factor, I think. It is a lot more uphill than the eye believes it to be. Who cares that I average over 4 strokes on this little bastard. It is a freakin cool hole - completely unique and I can't wait for you to play it!


John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2011, 07:46:54 PM »
Michael,

Thank you for the kind words. I had said earlier today that I was abstaining from further discussion of Dismal until the conclusion of my visit this weekend. What great timing that has proven to be given the introduction of this thread. I respect Brad and admire the work he has done to promote the game.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2011, 07:58:43 PM »
#5 is a "love it" or "hate it" hole.  I can see both sides but it is the only true uphill par 3 at Dismal River.  It compares to #13 at Sand Hills, only 40 yards shorter.  Both holes have major uphill shots, big run-offs behind the green, and only a very good shot is rewarded.  Both are "do or die" and difficult pars.  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 08:06:57 PM by Chris Johnston »

John_Conley

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 08:56:22 PM »
Ready to scrawl a "DISMAL4LIFE" tattoo across your stomach, Tupac Klein?

That's a great bumper snicker.

Ron Csigo

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 08:58:43 PM »
Does anyone have any pictures of the hole that they can share?  Especially one of the putting service and the run-off around it?

If not, then perhaps after you guys visit this weekend.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:05:24 PM by Ron Csigo »
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 09:06:45 PM »
I have to agree that 5 is an excellent golf hole.  Yes, the green is not terribly receptive off the tee.  However, 5 is a short par three, and you will likely be coming in with no more than a 6-iron.  The green should be plenty big enough to hold that type of shot.  Moreover, there is PLENTY of room short to the left and right of the bunker.  The short miss that avoids the bunker leaves a straightforward uphill pitch, and, unless the golfer gets silly or executes poorly, he should make no worse than a four from short of the green.

And yes, this a cool golf hole, with a green and lone bunker carved from a natural landscape.  The other 17 greens are extremely receptive at Dismal, so why can't one repel shots?

How much more difficult is Dismal's 5th than, say, the 11th at Shinnecock Hills?  Or any other uphill par three?

I thought the review and ratings were pretty good (although the Overall rating seems a bit low relative to the individual rankings: 6.6 versus a 7.2 average for the ten categories).  I really didn't get the par threes being rated 5 out of ten.  Yes, the yardages are close together, but these are four very different par threes here.  3 is a pitch over a sand pit to a huge, multi-sectioned green.  5 is a short, uphill affair to a skyline green.  10 can either be a short iron to a front pin or a long iron to a semi-blind back hole location.  15 is a mid-iron over a dramatic blowout to a redan-style green.  All are sited beautifully, all dramatic, and all present multiple options--something very rare in a set of par threes.  The set of threes at Dismal is my favorite of the year.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:17:40 PM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JC Jones

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 09:43:44 PM »
I was also surprised that the rating was lower than the average of the ten categories AND that it received a lower rating than the much panned Atlanta Athletic Club.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:57:08 PM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 09:47:46 PM »
I think the discussion of controversial golf holes is maybe the most interesting in gca.

I usually fall on the side of "love them" rather than "hate them".  In fact, having just come back from Bandon, I loved #14 at Bandon Trails and #7 at Old Macdonald, the two most controversial holes at the resort.  In fact, each of them are my favorite holes on each course.  My approach shot on #7 at Old Mac was the most exciting shot that I played at Bandon Dunes during my trip.  The first time, the hole was cut in the back middle.  I hit a perfect 8 iron that hit right behind the hole and bounced into the back bunker (as always - caddies fault in club selection - not my fault).  The second time I played the hole, the pin was front right.  I hit a good 6 iron (more wind).  My ball mark (maybe the only one that I had on that course) was 4 feet to the right of the flag, but ended up 80 yards down the fairway to the right.  Despite bogeying the hole both times, it is the one hole on that course that I cannot wait to play again (I am thinking of aiming at the 8th's championship tees next time).  For this reason, fairness of score is not my deciding factor in determining great golf holes, but rather the excitement that the hole brings to me when I play it. 

On the topic of controversial golf holes, I think MacKenzie has provided the gca community with the most insight into the topic.  MacKenzie said:  "My experience of really first class holes is that . . . they at first sight excite the most violent spirit of antagonism.  It is only after the holes have been played many times that the feeling of resentment disappears and the former critics become the strongest supporters."

My favorite quote of MacKenzie best describes my belief re: controversial golf holes:  "Golf is a game and talk and discussion is all to the interests of the game.  Anything that keeps the game alive and prevents us being bored with it is an advantage.  Anything that makes us think about it, talk about it and dream about it is all to the good and prevents the game becoming dead."

I have not played #5 at Dismal River and will defer judgment.  Maybe the hole "jumps the shark" re: the delicate line of fun vs. stupid.   However, if it stirs an excitement in Eric and John to play the hole, I will likely fall on the side of liking it.




"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike McGuire

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 10:01:50 PM »
Does anyone have any pictures of the hole that they can share?  Especially one of the putting service and the run-off around it?


Yes, all this talk of golf holes most will not get a chance to play and the ones that do wont take photos.

Michael George

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2011, 10:05:50 PM »

John Kavanaugh's post on Dismal River and Sand Hills (which is still on the first page) has pictures of #5 on the 4 string. 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike McGuire

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2011, 10:17:00 PM »
Oh Wow. Now I can kind of see what the fuss is about.

What I learned about skyline greens from Pat Mucci is that long looks like death - when in reality its short you should avoid.


Mac Plumart

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2011, 10:23:19 PM »
On Eric Smith's "DISMAL RIVER GOLF CLUB" thread, he has pictures of all the holes.

And like many others, I think Brad Klein is great at what he does.  I respect the fact 5 isn't his favorite.  Holes 7, 9, 12, are more classic and good golf holes.  The kicker with Dismal is that has good solid holes, some quirky ones, and some head scratchers.  Brad described it as Nicklaus meets Tobacco Road...probably pretty true.

Also, "the little frat house on the prairie" is spot on.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 10:24:54 PM »
Mike...

I've been short many times.  It isn't death, just another chance at a miraculous recovery.


Frankly, the story of my life.  :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Buck Wolter

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 10:53:22 PM »
I respect Brad and admire the work he has done to promote the game.

John Kavanaugh and Brad Klein agreeing on something  -- this Dismal River place reminds me more and more of 'Field of Dreams' -- I expect to hear about CB Mac hitting chip shots in the sand hills with the son he never met from his dalliances at Chicago Golf while Alistair McKenzie is reunited with Marion Hollings and nearby Melvyn and Old Tom take an EZGO around the course, Is this Heaven? No it's Neeebraski. We should get the Israelis and Palestinians out there pronto as there's something supernatural going on.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 12:02:09 AM »
I visited Dismal River in 2008 and stated my general approval of the course to many participants on this site, often in person for a year or more afterwards. My positive comments were universally contested with volleys of criticism.

The recent, rapid turn-around in the general opinion of DR in the court of GCA is simply astounding. The changes to #'s 13 and 18 must have turned out well.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

JC Urbina

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 01:07:28 AM »
Kyle,

I enjoyed the Brad Klein write up. 

Why do you think the new love affair with Dismal River has come about. 

Jed Peters

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 01:15:16 AM »
 

Why do you think the new love affair with Dismal River has come about. 

Jim:

The question isn't directed towards me, but I think it has to do with:

1. Chris Johnson's willingness to share this treasure with others.

2. Doak butt-boyism regarding the new course

3. The general "sheep" mentality of GCA (and people, in general).

Sean_A

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 01:57:32 AM »
I think I am much more likely to give a wild hole a pass than most, but it doesn't surprise me that Brad (someone intimately familiar with gca and the process) has an issue with this hole - I think most archies would.  That said, the hole does look a bit dodgy in the photo.  What is the length and elevation change?  Does somebody have a pic looking back toward the tee?  Is that part of the green to the right?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael George

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2011, 01:57:58 AM »
There is a difference between discussion and love.

There has been without question a lot of discussion re: Dismal River for the reasons that are specified in this string.  Those that have played it recently seem to love what is going on there.  However, I would not say that there is some blind sheep following of Dismal.  
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Michael George

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 02:01:11 AM »

Sean:

I think that the pictures on Dismal River's web site provide a better overall view of the hole.  You pose a good question re: the severity of the slope to the green.  However, the criticism seemed to be pointed  at the green rather than the slope.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Why I have a "Dismal" bumper sticker on my car
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 02:30:29 AM »
Is that part of the green to the right?

It is. Here's I shot I took in 2008.


JC,
I hate to be presumptuous about the why(s) of DR's image tranformation, but I think Jed may have struck on a few solid possibilities.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

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