[Scott Warren]

Jason,

I am as interested as anyone about the development of RGD's course at Dismal River. We covered that last time you took a crack at me. Your predictable, lame schitck is old and tired -- give it some pine. This is a great, exciting project and I'm tired of you trying to suggest I feel otherwise.

Michael,

Unless I am mistaken, the holes aren't complete, they are under construction. It just seems premature to be selecting favourites on a course that is still so far from complete or saying a set of holes is potentially the best of a pool where you're unfamiliar with many of the premier candidates. There are plenty of ways to convey excitement or praise golf holes without making premature, overly grand statements.

To quote one of DR's beloved members: I find it impossible to see how the new course will compare to the existing course as the new course isn't built.

[Adam Clayman]

Add Greywalls.

I only take one small exception on what Brad had to say, and that's only If he meant to say it was impossible. Thats about recovery from the native. Sure it can be difficult, and especially with this year's native, which is exceptionally lush from the late spring and amount of precipitation provided by Mother nature. But, it's drying and thinning out, now.

[Ben Sims]

Scott:

He helped build the holes.  I think that more than qualifies him to make a judgment about them.   We spend 4 hours on a course one time and think we can judge it.  He lived there for a week and you have to be critical.  Honestly, other than Chris, Ben probably deserves the right to be excited about the course.  

Ben:  

Thanks for your thoughts - as that is exactly what I asked for.  I fully understand the qualifiers that you put in your opinion, but it provided some nice input where I can enjoy the update posts from Chris.  I will certainly be on the look-out for the holes that you mention.  Thanks.
 

Michael,

I never said I built any golf holes.  I just helped put hydroseed on some of them, helped float a couple others with a rake, and rode around the parts that haven't been built yet a few times.  

Scott,

I never said it WAS anything.  I said it COULD be something.  I am a flea in this whole thing really.  Tom's guys and Don's guys are the real deal.  I was a grunt.  

But in actuality, if I can't look at an area and hear what the lead associate has to say and think whether I like the golf hole or not, then I probably won't ever make it in golf.  

[Scott Warren]

And the insight is really interesting, truly. I just look at this fever pitch -- amps cranked to 11 already -- and wonder where there will be to go once the thing is actually complete.

But the "could" or the "was"... If we're abstract enough we could say this "could" be the best course ever built. But unless we have decent cause to say such a thing, or the experience to say such a thing, what's the value in saying it?

I could say Barny Dunes "could" be Doak's best set of short fours, but having not played his North Amnerican courses, where's the value or weight in saying that?

[JC Jones]

Scott,

I don't have to suggest anything, your posts handle that.  I mean, I can just FEEL the excitement from your posts to Ben above, or your assertions that much of the reason behind the views on DR changing was not the changes or the adjustments to the golf course, or anything golf course related, but rather, the owner and 2 "well liked" members being on this site.  

Perhaps you can point me to your posts trying to temper the expectations on Old Macdonald or any correcting of the declarations of the quality of the holes relative to others in Doak's portfolio despite the commenter having not played those Doak courses in the southern Hemi.

In any event, I'm sure Pat Ruddy felt your excitement too.

[Michael George]

Ben:

We all have started somewhere in each of our professions and most were not anywhere near the top of the chain.  While your contributions may not have been as important as others, you should be commended for your love for golf courses and going after your dreams.  Don't let people on this site curb that enthusiasm.   And I have often just toured courses and formed opinions.

[Scott Warren]

Jason,

You have a particular talent for misrepresenting things to try to cause drama where it need not exist. I believe others understand my POV and I am comfortable with that. Keep at me if it makes you feel good.

[Eric Smith]

Let's stop the petty bickering and get this thread back on track. Now where were we? Oh yes, bumper stickers!

[Kalen Braley]

I think I've been around long enough to understand where Scott is coming from.  I don't think he's taking away from Ben's enthusiasm in this case...hell I appreciate Bens joy for it as well and wish I had the time and resources to sign up for a similar gig.

I've seen many courses get hyped up and compared to this or that very prematurely before the official open, even after they fully grown in.  But this has to be a new record of a course getting same where its only been in the ground a few weeks.  Even the course designer has been critical of such proclamations in the past before a course gets a fair amount of play, much less when its 1.5 years away from opening.

I think we're all stoked for Dismal 2.0 and thrilled to death to see a guy like Chris make the charge....but all good things come in thier due time! 

[Ben Sims]

Look, I'm not proclaiming anything.  I didn't say that the next coming of Sand Hills was on the horizon.  Didn't write a dadgum magazine review or write a book with some number ratings in it.  I just said I liked what I saw and that it had potential to be very good and compare favorably to other work.  Sheesh!  Now I know why Tom Doak discourages this stuff.  I'll excuse myself from DR related material until I'm cleared hot by others involved.

Someone please talk about the guys hand-sprigging a bajillion acres by hand at Streamsong, or the C&C Preserve course, or the myriad construction projects on Hainan.  

[Michael George]

And yet people on the site wonder why we have to talk about the differences between Lloyd Cole and the Commotions and Big Head Todd.

[Sean_A]

Clearly, Dismal River has become a favorite of the site.  

A good question for the long timers on the site - give the top 10 underrated "favorites" on the site?  

Kingsley?
Dismal River?
Deal?

Would like to get some perspective from past posts.  Thanks.

Deal and Dismal River are certainly near the top of the list--of course, I happen to be a big fan of both.  Others might be:

Tobacco Road
Ballyneal
Addington
Wolf Point
Long Shadow
Brora

These are courses that the general golfing population either has never heard of or will find too extreme.  As such, they get a lot of love out here, but they also have more than their share of critics.  I think these are the layouts that generate the most spirited and interesting discussion on GCA, mainly because they inspire such strong reactions.

As a side question, do those who like Brora have a "sheep mentality"?  

JNC

Aren't Deal, Ballyneal, Addington and (perhaps) Brora already rated? 

Its tough to do much with The Road other than perhaps a top 100 modern - which it may be.

I don't know how well known Huntercombe is, but more and more folks are seeing it in recent years and it surely is deserving of a strong shout for top 100 GB&I.

Ciao

[Brad Klein]

Adam,

On the native roughs at Dismal River, here is what I wrote:

-"The fairways are plenty wide, but woe be the roughs, which essentially are random stands of wild prairie grass that offer little chance for recovery."

-"maddeningly heavy, high, nasty roughs in the immediate roll-out areas where water runoff (and wind-blown spray) have created unduly lush growth."

There's nothing about recovery being "impossible." Don't know where you got your attribution for that. And I take into account the recently wet weather (from when I was there in mid-August).

Brad

[Dan Herrmann]

One factor that sometimes gets lost (although Brad captured it in his article) is the fact that golf is recreation for 99% of us.  If it's not fun, it's not worth our time or money.   And the current setup at DR is pure fun.  And so is Sand Hills - ithey're certainly different, but it's all adds up to really great golf experiences.

[Tom_Doak]

Look, I'm not proclaiming anything.  I didn't say that the next coming of Sand Hills was on the horizon.  Didn't write a dadgum magazine review or write a book with some number ratings in it.  I just said I liked what I saw and that it had potential to be very good and compare favorably to other work.  Sheesh!  Now I know why Tom Doak discourages this stuff.  I'll excuse myself from DR related material until I'm cleared hot by others involved.

Someone please talk about the guys hand-sprigging a bajillion acres by hand at Streamsong, or the C&C Preserve course, or the myriad construction projects on Hainan.  

Ben:

I'm not sure what "cleared hot" means, but you are welcome to say anything you want about the course.  I'd guess you know it better than all but about five or six people in the world right now.  And, as for the par-3 holes, two of them are built and grassed [tees, bunkers, green, everything] and the other two are just laying there as much as any par-3 hole I've ever built -- so you ought to have a pretty good idea what they're going to be!

I suppose we could have gone Sitwell Park with the 11th green, but I tried to restrain myself a bit since the bentgrass greens will be faster than what they have at Barnbougle.  Plus, we've already done that somewhere.  Watching Brian Slawnik build that short-right bunker out in the native to hide the drainage pouring out of the green was one of the highlights of my year ... it took him maybe an hour.

But, there's no hurry; there's plenty of time to talk about this one later, and for people to concentrate on all the other golf courses that are being opened this fall.  In fact, between now and April, I won't be thinking about it too much, as I'll have my hands full in China, and possibly elsewhere!

[Adam Clayman]

Brad, I'll admit to having enough time between reading the article and posting to not recall exactly what you wrote. That's why I qualified it with "if you meant to say impossible". It was more of a possible subtext thang. And, I did say it was a tiny exception.

Compared to the original iteration, (Abysmal) the adjacent over growth is 95% reduced, and, better than most courses that either haven't calibrated their systems correctly, or have antiquated heads.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Scott,
Most of the course is already constructed.  There are only two spots on the entire course where we will wait to lay mainline pipe so Brian can do some work. Two spots! The foundation is already there in a form that would allow someone with a sharp eye and a good mind for golf, someone like Ben, to form opinions about certain holes. In fact, we have all played the course already! No we didn’t putt, but we hit drives and approaches on all the holes.

What amazes me about the course is how good the land is and how well Tom routed the course. They always say there is 1000s of holes out here, and there are; anyone of us could come out here and find a hole or two. But, there aren’t any great golf courses just laying around easy to find. Tom routed a course where many of the greens are already there and the majority of the tees are just sitting there. Its really remarkable and the longer I‘m here the better it gets.  Don’t really have the words yet to describe how good this routing is, but it is fitting Tom first wrote about it in the “A genius routing” thread. It fits with all the points I was trying to make in that thread. When talking with Brian Slawnick about it, he said, “Tom is getting pretty good at this routing stuff” and I guess I‘ll leave it at that for now. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Michael,
In terms of underated, I would have to also mention Kingsley....an off the wall one would be Birmingham Country Club and probably most of all Whispering Pines in Trinity Texas...a very true Hidden Gem.

Rated number one in Texas, by Dallas Morning News now for four years, but not getting any mention from the blinkered people  at Golf Digest.
In trems of a golf course...a superior piece of golf course architecture than several new courses that DG has "selected" to be top 50

[Jud_T]

Michael,

I'd simply look at this ranking and compare and contrast with the various rags...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html

[Michael George]

Jud:

Thanks.  That list is some great work by Ian.

Looks like the "favorites" of GCA (as compared to the mag. rankings) are:

Ballyneal
Yale
Pasatiempo
Kingsley
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Old Town Club
Lawsonia Links

Those are the courses that are ranked clearly ahead of where they are in the mag. rankings.

[Mark Saltzman]

Jud:

Thanks.  That list is some great work by Ian.

Looks like the "favorites" of GCA (as compared to the mag. rankings) are:

Ballyneal
Yale
Pasatiempo
Kingsley
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Old Town Club
Lawsonia Links

Those are the courses that are ranked clearly ahead of where they are in the mag. rankings.

Michael,

It would seem that GW is most closely aligned with the sentiment on GCA:

Ballyneal - GCA 16; GW 6 Modern
Yale - 40; 41 Classic
Pasatiempo - 42; 29 Classic
Kingsley - GCA 54; GW 26 Modern
Holston Hills - 54; 56 Classic
Franklin Hills - 85; 62 Classic
Old Town Club - 93; 90 Classic
Lawsonia Links - 93; 58 Classic

[Brad Wilbur]

I don't have a bumper sticker, but did wear the Dismal hat last Saturday for golf.  On one of the par three holes, there were three young guys from the UNLV golf management program, soliciting donations by betting on "beat the pro."  One of the three saw my hat and went into a pretty vivid description of it's history and layout!  He was stoked about the course, which is something considering his hometown (Monterey, CA).  While I was able to add to his knowledge base, it's nice to see a new generation enthused about the game.

[Brad Klein]

Not only do I have one of those spiffy bumper stickers on the car, but I also bought at retail from the pro shop a very cool electric neon lemon/lime Nike Golf wind jacket with the Dismal River logo on the left sleeve. It's now the envy of all my golf friends here in CT and on the road. I buy such stuff on the theory that the older i get the louder the colors need to be for them to find me when I wander off.

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Ron Csigo]

Let's stop the petty bickering and get this thread back on track. Now where were we? Oh yes, bumper stickers!

Big Country,

I'll be impressed when I see a Dismal River barbed wire tattoo on your left bicep in two weeks.   

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