[Terry Lavin]

There's an incident at a private club here in Chicagoland in which a player, angry with the result of his shot, threw his club behind him without looking and it hit his caddie in the face as he stood behind the player.  The player has maintained the Judge Smailes defense, claiming the club "slipped", but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that the player has a known reputation for having a short fuse and is known to throw and break clubs quite regularly, but that he has never been formally disciplined for any of his prior conduct.

What would be an appropriate punishment?  Suspension for a period of time?  Fine?  Expulsion.  No jokes, please as this question is meant seriously.

[Bill_McBride]

I think expulsion is called for.   The club must have terrific liability.   And he's a repeat offender even if never formally disciplined in the past.  He, and the club, has been lucky before this disaster.

[Michael George]

This is just my opinion, but:

First, I would think the club would talk to the caddie.  Obviously, the player should pay all expenses (++) for the caddie.  The caddie might feel uncomfortable bringing suit being a caddie so the club needs to try and make the caddie whole.

Second, I think a suspension (with still paying dues) is appropriate for the remainder of the year.  Along with the suspension would be a requirement that the member control his temper and act properly on the course.  Another outburst and he should be expelled.

[Tim Martin]

If as you say the member has a reputation for this type of behavior then expulsion is order. Send the guy packing.

[Michael George]

Terry:

A couple of ideas:

(1) If the club is uncertain and/or uncomfortable with its investigation, they could hire a local attorney to do an investigation of the incident and make independent findings.  That way they could rely upon the investigator's findings rather than its own investigation.  

(2) I think the club has to look closely at its bylaws re: termination of membership and its past dealings of termination/suspension issues.  Temper issues at a club are very tough - as it is a regular complaint.  If they have been very reluctant to expel a member in the past for these issues, they might want to send a notice of no tolerance in the future to its members before taking on an expulsion in this matter.  

Per my original post, I think the biggest problem is how to handle the caddie.  The club should review whether the caddies are treated as employees or independent contractors and how this distinction has been made (ie. do the caddies sign an acknowledgment of being an independent contractor when they begin with the club).  If the caddie is not taken care of, I would not be surprised if he filed a workers compensation claim (with potentially an intentional tort claim).  

Clearly, it is a bad situation.  I hope this helps.

[Sean Leary]

Post deleted. Oops. Missed part about no jokes. Sorry Terry.

[David Kelly]

I wouldn't fine the guy as that would just be setting a price for boorish behavior on the course and reckless behavior towards caddies or employees of the club.

I would say 1 year suspension from the date of the incident at a minimum but probably expulsion.

[Garland Bayley]

I think the caddy should sue him, and thereby obtain all his wealth.

The club should assign the guilty member to the caddy crew, and always assign him to work for free for the former caddy/new member.

[Scott Stearns]

1-ask counsel.  gotta believe that a suspension helps the club's legal position vis a vis the caddie.

2-ask counsel if kicking the guy out will cause more legal hassle than its worth.

3-take a vote.  this is a matter, ultimately, for those who the guy and the membership.

one good question is "if we let him stay, who is gonna play with him"  why make the pro have to beg people to play with him. 

[Tim Martin]

Terry:

A couple of ideas:

(1) If the club is uncertain and/or uncomfortable with its investigation, they could hire a local attorney to do an investigation of the incident and make independent findings.  That way they could rely upon the investigator's findings rather than its own investigation.  

(2) I think the club has to look closely at its bylaws re: termination of membership and its past dealings of termination/suspension issues.  Temper issues at a club are very tough - as it is a regular complaint.  If they have been very reluctant to expel a member in the past for these issues, they might want to send a notice of no tolerance in the future to its members before taking on an expulsion in this matter.  

Per my original post, I think the biggest problem is how to handle the caddie.  The club should review whether the caddies are treated as employees or independent contractors and how this distinction has been made (ie. do the caddies sign an acknowledgment of being an independent contractor when they begin with the club).  If the caddie is not taken care of, I would not be surprised if he filed a workers compensation claim (with potentially an intentional tort claim).  

Clearly, it is a bad situation.  I hope this helps.

The question specifically requests an opinion about the appropriate punishment for the act described in the original post. Temper issues and causing personal injury are different. The club`s governing board would have some discretion under the bylaw`s for this type of heinous act. You would think embarrassment alone would be enough to send this guy down the road.

[Dan Herrmann]

Expel the SOB and publicize it.

[Wade Whitehead]

I can't fathom why anyone would try to say anything funny in this thread.

Expel him.  I have no patience for this sort of behavior and refuse to be around it.

WW

[JNC Lyon]

Jail Time?

[mike_beene]

wonder what the tour would do if a club was thrown into the crowd.Did the Jian Marachel incident lead to lifetime expulsion? I think you dismiss him for good.

[Andy Stamm]

I think it's more complicated. In 1970 Jack Nicklaus threw his putter in the air in elation at winning the Open, fortunately it didn't hurt anybody, but he covered his head because he was worried and I think it almost hit Jacklin. He lost control and created a dangerous situation, although I can see the difference between the two situations.

At the end of the day, he didn't hurt anybody intentionally, and it's not clear just how careless he was. I think it really comes down to that and how careless he's been in the past as well as how bad the injury is. If he helicoptored the club in frustration he's out. If, he went to toss the club in a normal fashion to his caddie and didn't realize he was standing right behind him, that's different.

[Bill Brightly]

You can be sure that the caddy will receive all of his medical expenses and a "pain and suffering" settlement from the guy's Homeowners (liability) insurance, and probably the club's insurance carrier will be kicking in. How much depends on the severity of the injuries.

To the extent that the club knew of this guy's club throwing history and took no action, the club has plenty of liability...and plenty of insurance protection, as well.

I say a year suspension at a minimum is in order.

[Jay Flemma]

If he's a repeat offender, and if he injured the caddie, it sounds more like a case for expulsion than suspension.  I'd recommend starting with that premise but then if there are other extenuating circumstances that might warrant clemency, perhaps show some mercy and offer suspension, but he'd really have to show a lot of remorse and take lots of affirmative steps to show you he's reformed and sorry.  But Terry, from the facts you give us - repeat offender with a record of throwing ***and breaking*** clubs - and hitting a caddie in the face, that's gravely serious.

Terry, are the rules in ILL the same as NY in that it a Workers Compensation case?  (That's not my specialty at all, so if it's not don't hold it against me...)

[Jay Flemma]

I think it's more complicated. In 1970 Jack Nicklaus threw his putter in the air in elation at winning the Open, fortunately it didn't hurt anybody, but he covered his head because he was worried and I think it almost hit Jacklin. He lost control and created a dangerous situation, although I can see the difference between the two situations.

At the end of the day, he didn't hurt anybody intentionally, and it's not clear just how careless he was. I think it really comes down to that and how careless he's been in the past as well as how bad the injury is. If he helicoptored the club in frustration he's out. If, he went to toss the club in a normal fashion to his caddie and didn't realize he was standing right behind him, that's different.

It was actually Doug Sanders.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Terry,
Would u be asking the question if the caddy had hit the member in the face with a club? Take the words caddy and member out of the question and the answer is obvious.

[JR Potts]

This is just my opinion, but:

First, I would think the club would talk to the caddie.  Obviously, the player should pay all expenses (++) for the caddie.  The caddie might feel uncomfortable bringing suit being a caddie so the club needs to try and make the caddie whole.

Second, I think a suspension (with still paying dues) is appropriate for the remainder of the year.  Along with the suspension would be a requirement that the member control his temper and act properly on the course.  Another outburst and he should be expelled.

I think this is about right.  Zero tolerance going forward.  Maybe even a donation to the Evans Scholar Foundation.

[Jay Flemma]

Michael and Ryan - the golf year is almost over though.  Would a two month (or thereabout) suspension be enough?

[cary lichtenstein]

Expulsion and turn him over to the sheriff

[John Kavanaugh]

It is much more difficult to forgive than to expel.  Assuming the caddie is a young man how this incident is handled may influence how he deals with difficult relationship issues the remainder of his life. Take care of the money then heal the offender.

[David Kelly]

wonder what the tour would do if a club was thrown into the crowd.Did the Jian Marachel incident lead to lifetime expulsion? I think you dismiss him for good.

Assuming you mean Juan Marichal, he was suspended for 2 starts and fined about $2K.  But it was a completely different situation. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Terry - I don't want to put words in your mouth, but your post suggests there are grounds to believe that this wasn't an accident and that there was (excuse me, but I don't know the legal/technical jargon) a "willful disregard" for another's safety. In society at large and in the context of the rules of the land, what would the minimum penalty be for such willful disregard?  Starting from there, I'd think that a private club would want to stand for something above and beyond the minimum penalty -- and would also want to reinforce the idea that membership was a privilege earned and not a right to be paid for.

Peter  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()