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Jim Franklin

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Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2011, 08:42:25 AM »
I think the caddy should sue him, and thereby obtain all his wealth.

The club should assign the guilty member to the caddy crew, and always assign him to work for free for the former caddy/new member.


You're serious?
Mr Hurricane

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2011, 08:44:22 AM »
Terry:

As the saying goes down at Beverly "Treat your caddy like you would your son" (I'm paraphrasing). Would it be alright to take out a fit of personal anger out on your son or daughter at home? Of course not.

Obviously, the club thrower is in the wrong here. I don't know the guy personally, but how you handle the situation depends on the type of member/person he's been in the past. If this is the first incident, perhaps a pure accident, and he's very much sorry for what he did...it's worth giving him another shot. If he has a long history of being a jerk and a hot head then this becomes the tipping point and I would boot him out of the club as soon as possible.

When I was caddying at a prestigious club out east in College a member who was a bit of a hot head was having a bad round (lots of club throwing, beating clubs into turf and bunkers, etc...) and when I gave him a yardage on the par-3 16th hole he decided to take it out on me, including the awesome line "don't you know that this hole is 2% (grade) uphill?" I didn't, but remained polite. When I gave the hot head my caddy ticket to sign after the round he made the comment "oh, you actually want to get paid for this??"  

Afterward the other three members in the group and the caddy master personally apologized for the member's actions. Later, the GM found me as well to apologize and to let me know that "we won't be seeing (member) for the next couple months."

That one round was just one random poor experience out of perhaps 100s of excellent rounds caddying for a classy, respectful membership...just as I'm sure is the case wherever this incident happened.
H.P.S.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2011, 08:46:20 AM »
I agree that if it wasn't intentional, suspension for the remainder of the year, direct apology to the caddie and his family, a check for the Evans scholars and zero tolerance going forward is probably the right call.  However, if the guy's a real tool to begin with and is a big negative for the culture of the club this might the opening you've been waiting for to give him the old heave ho.  
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2011, 09:09:36 AM »
I don't think you need to kick the guy out to set a precedent that hitting a caddie in the face is wrong.  I guess it is because I am such a sinner myself that I am interested in helping both parties.  Rich guy justice is an interesting dichotomy which is why the question of if the roles were reversed is a moot point.

I'd love to see the guy write a written apology to the club and caddie accepting full responsibility for his reckless actions.  If he does that he proves how much being a member means to him because the money side of this is going to get very expensive for him.  My only concern, and belief, is that he is fighting for his membership so he does not have to take responsibility.  When he does it gets very expensive.

Simply put.  In rich guy justice for a man to be forgiven he must apologize without running it by his lawyers.  If he does the kid can get a nice start in life financially and the guy and club can be the better for it.  If he doesn't then you need to make sure that he never plays golf at a private course again.

I would:

Contact the CGGA and have him banned from being able to establish a handicap.
Find out where he likes to have a drink and have my cop buddies bust him for DUI.
Inform his customer base and destroy him long term.
Find out were he gets his car serviced and make him buy domestic.
Go to where he gets his haircut and let it slip what happened.
Make sure the hostess at his favorite restaurant understands what kind of guy he is.
If he doesn't move out of town or become a broken man then start messing with his family.

The above is not a joke.  See why forgiveness is so hard, it has a lot to do with how much fun revenge can be.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2011, 09:11:42 AM »
Based on Terry`s original post I still think that expulsion is in order. That said I would be interested to know how the guilty party has handled the situation and how much contrition has been exhibited. If there is any wiggle room at all for this guy it should be based on that assessment.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2011, 09:19:51 AM »
The Board will likely return its decision today. I can't predict what they will do but there is no question that it considers this incident as an extremely egregious departure from acceptable behavior. For obvious reasons. This has been a difficult process for all involved. The "verdict" will hopefully promote a sense of club justice and offer an opportunity for healing.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2011, 09:29:42 AM »
Just to compare potential punishments, one of our members got shitfaced at a party and made an extremely inappropriate suggestion to another member's wife.   He got a year on the bench for that one. 

By contrast, this club throwing with injury is in another dimension.

Terry, I hope your nephew is okay.  That was quite a twist. 

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »
I've refrained from jumping in on this post since I was curious what a non-lawyer's take would be on the situation. A lot of you have talked about the liability of the various parties. I'll give you my $.02 (though no legal advice) as a lawyer and someone who has taught a torts class in the hotel school at Cornell. The whole situation actually sounds like a bar exam question or one of the ones I would've given the undergrads. Here's my analysis:

For the golfer, the two possible torts are either battery or negligence. Battery is defined as "the intent to cause a harmful or offensive contact resulting in such contact." Based on the facts here, intent appears to be missing because the golfer didn't know the caddy was behind him and it would appear was not trying intentionally to hit the caddie with the club. Therefore, there was no battery. The other theory, negligence, is more promising. As many of you well know, negligence requires all four of the following elements: (1) Duty; (2) Breach; (3) Causation; (4) injury. The golfer has a duty to behave as a reasonable man would. A reasonable man does not throw a club, particularly when he cannot see where it will land or if anyone is in the line of flight. Consequently, the golfer breached his duty. The golfer's breach was both the proximate and cause in fact of the caddie's injuries and the caddie was injured. Textbook negligence.

A lot of you have been quick to impute liability to the club. That will be difficult. First, there is the issue of whether the caddie is an employee or an independent contractor. The distinction is crucial because it affects the duties owed by the club to the caddie. If the caddie is an employee, a whole host of federal and state workplace protection laws and regulations also apply. I'm no scholar on Illinois independent contractor law, so I can't comment on that. However, I can say there are many states where caddies are deemed to be independent contractors, not employees. The club's liability at common law under a tort theory is also questionable, particularly if the caddie is an independent contractor. The caddie might pursue claims of negligent employment, negligent supervision, etc. However, I think those claims are much more of a longshot. I'll spare everyone an analysis of those claims because there are a few possible causes of action (unless someone wants to know the standards and how they apply).

All of the analysis, however, is quite a separate question from what should be done with the member. Personally, I don't think any act done without intent merits expulsion, except if done repeatedly. Having a history of being a hothead on the golf course doesn't really do it for me as far as prior bad behavior goes, unless there has been a history of TRULY bad conduct. Almost all of us are guilty of a breach of etiquette from time to time after we hit a bad shot...whether we'll admit it or not. I'm not sticking up for the golfer personally, but I think that perhaps the more appropriate remedy is a reprimand or suspension through the end of the year followed by probation.  There's a reason negligence isn't a criminal, but rather a civil wrong - the lack of intent. (And yes there are some criminal offense characterized by "negligence" however the standard for criminal negligence is much higher, more akin to gross negligence). For me, I'd allow the golfer to make the caddie whole, be punished, but not expelled.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 09:41:56 AM by David Cronheim »
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2011, 09:51:49 AM »
And this is why the rules, and etiquette, are not decided by lawyers.

To assume that the caddie was not behind the player, implies he'd be in front of him, is a premise I can't get behind. Besides, everyone should know the Tommy Bolt method for throwing clubs is forward.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2011, 10:10:44 AM »
And this is why the rules, and etiquette, are not decided by lawyers.

To assume that the caddie was not behind the player, implies he'd be in front of him, is a premise I can't get behind. Besides, everyone should know the Tommy Bolt method for throwing clubs is forward.

If you think lawyers didn't draft the USGA's rules, you've got another thing coming...Also, battery requires intent, not an assumption. All I said is that the golfer likely isn't liable under a theory of battery, but rather negligence. Lastly, the caddie couldn't been a lot of places other than directly behind the player, e.g. to the side. There's no premise that you have to "get behind" at all. A reasonable person would know that there were people around and that throwing a club presents a risk of injury. Duty -> breach.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2011, 10:44:15 AM »
The real world goes something like this:  It's not what you do, it's who you do it to.

I promise you that the guy who killed my sister died in jail wishing he had picked a different girl. 

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2011, 10:57:39 AM »
  I have been hesitant to voice my thougts or comments regarding this sad affair but here we go. The club where this occurred has an excellent reputation for treating our caddies and other employees extremely well. This is a very isolated incident.This is hard to accept but it happened. As a young man I caddied here for 8 years and was treated very well. Not to say I  didn't care for a few of the members. We have the largest number of Evans Scholar Alums in the country. As an aside, Terry has been a steadfast supporter as one of our WGA Directors. Our caddy master is a hall of fame guy and manages our crew of 200 young men and women like the pro he is. This will be a sad chapter in the history of our club. My hope is that it will not affect parents decision making as to whether they will encourage their child to work at our club. The young caddy who was injured to his credit is back on the job- I am happy he has overcome the lunacy of the situation. Sadly there are no winners in this mess.                                                                Jack
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 12:40:48 PM by Jack Crisham »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2011, 11:31:24 AM »
If the miscreant is known as a hot tempered club thrower, let a plaintiff's attorney prove that the caddie deserves a substantial settlement. Forget about the Evans program, the young man should get all of the money damages himself.

Frankly, anyone that harms an employee is lucky not to go to the hoosegow.

Expell him and set an example at the club, boors not wanted.

Bob

+1
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2011, 11:45:39 AM »
I too have stayed away.  I will not comment on the legal issues; Terry knows more about personal injury law than any of you would care to know and he doesn't need any help or advice.

What the question really focuses on is the question, "what does the club want to be?".  How it treats the member will send a message to the other members, to employees and to the outside world.  Having sat on club boards, club grievance committees and served as a club President, I know how difficult these questions can be.  But, unfortunately, it is these types of decisions that truly define what a club is all about.

I start with the premise that belonging to a private golf club is a privilege and not a right that comes with being able to afford it.  In economic times such as this when many clubs need members, this premise is often ignored but I believe that those clubs that ignore it will regret it in the long run.

I further recognize that most club members have made friends at the club and thus discipline, particularly harsh discipline, is difficult.  If the member's wife is popular and blameless, it makes the job even harder because the family is punished along with the miscreant.

I am troubled by the concept that paying the bills and education etc solves all or most of the problem.  It suggests that rich guys at a club can buy their way out of problems.  While there is an element of truth to that proposition, it need not be the case at a club.

I suppose I ask myself the following question as a jumping off point; "If the individual were applying to join my club with this incident in his recent past, would I take him, assuming that his curent member friends were his sponsors?".  If the answer is "no", then in the instant case, how much credit for being a member should he get?  At the least a long suspension is in order but I suspect the club would be better off without the member.
 
As to the rehabilitation point, the goal is admirable but, candidly, in my experience the pressure etc coming from a club is not an effective motivator for fundamental change.  I am more concerned about the impact the decision will have on the culture of the club than on the individual.

So that is the question, what message does the club want to send?  The individual has to decide, regardless of the club's decision, how comfortable will he be at the club even if he is permitted to stay.  Different clubs and different people may reach different conclusions.  I cannot think of too many things worse for a club than members who are abusive to employees (or independent contractors working at the club).  Even where the offense was unintentional, at least with regards to the injury, the act showed a fundamental disregard for the safety of others and a disrespect for the game and the simplest rules of civility.  Barring facts and circumstances not presented by Terry, I would vote to expel.  But I have been out voted before.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2011, 11:55:05 AM »


I start with the premise that belonging to a private golf club is a privilege and not a right that comes with being able to afford it.  In economic times such as this when many clubs need members, this premise is often ignored but I believe that those clubs that ignore it will regret it in the long run.



If you ever decide to quit your day job,you'd be a great private club consultant.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2011, 12:13:36 PM »
I very much agree with Shelly on this one. Because while this is about the treatment of a caddy by a member, it is broader than that.

I'm afraid whatever the board at this club does, they are going to anger part of the membership. If they choose a punishment short of expulsion, I would guess there will be some members who don't think enough was done. If they kick the dude out, I'm going to guess that there will be some buddy's of the club thrower who think it is too severe.

Since I don't know where this happened, I don't know how financially stable this club is. Does it have a waiting list and any departure can be easily absorbed? Or is it a place where the departure of 10 members (and the dues/F&B/guest fees/etc., that goes with it) is a significant problem?

I'm glad I'm not on that board.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2011, 12:51:28 PM »
The Board suspended the member until January 2013.  I asked for expulsion, but there weren't enough votes for that penalty.  It's been an upsetting month, mostly because the member involved refused to admit that he had thrown the club in anger, leading a group of his pals to vigorously support him with the "it slipped" defense that has now been withdrawn.  This issue has caused a lot of pain and consternation, much of which could have been avoided had the individual "manned up" from the get go.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2011, 12:57:08 PM »
I think it's more complicated. In 1970 Jack Nicklaus threw his putter in the air in elation at winning the Open, fortunately it didn't hurt anybody, but he covered his head because he was worried and I think it almost hit Jacklin. He lost control and created a dangerous situation, although I can see the difference between the two situations.

At the end of the day, he didn't hurt anybody intentionally, and it's not clear just how careless he was. I think it really comes down to that and how careless he's been in the past as well as how bad the injury is. If he helicoptored the club in frustration he's out. If, he went to toss the club in a normal fashion to his caddie and didn't realize he was standing right behind him, that's different.

It was actually Doug Sanders.

Doug Sanders won the US Open. WOW! Nobody told me.  :-[

As usual Garland, you are way wrong...it was the 1970 Open Championship at St. Andrews.  Nicklaus beat Sanders in an 18 hole playoff.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2011, 01:02:20 PM »
The Board suspended the member until January 2013.  I asked for expulsion, but there weren't enough votes for that penalty.  It's been an upsetting month, mostly because the member involved refused to admit that he had thrown the club in anger, leading a group of his pals to vigorously support him with the "it slipped" defense that has now been withdrawn.  This issue has caused a lot of pain and consternation, much of which could have been avoided had the individual "manned up" from the get go.

The defense by his pals is almost as bad as the throwing in a way. But 16 months on the outside looking in should send a message.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2011, 01:04:10 PM »
The Board suspended the member until January 2013.  I asked for expulsion, but there weren't enough votes for that penalty.  It's been an upsetting month, mostly because the member involved refused to admit that he had thrown the club in anger, leading a group of his pals to vigorously support him with the "it slipped" defense that has now been withdrawn.  This issue has caused a lot of pain and consternation, much of which could have been avoided had the individual "manned up" from the get go.

Terry:

How banged up was your nephew from the club hitting him?
H.P.S.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2011, 01:16:20 PM »
What is he going to do for your nephew? Something meaningful I hope?  Is he also on a long probation/last legs as in if he ever throws another club, he's gone?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2011, 01:26:44 PM »
How do you handle the future actions of this member if he has exhibited such a character flaw?? Fool me once etc.??  I hope the young man is on the mend. What a terrible thing to happen to a kid out to earn a few bucks honestly.

That board opened a Pandoras box by not showing the member the door.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2011, 01:31:42 PM »
He has two sizable scars on his forehead, right between his eyes.  He will see a neurologist to rule out any head injury in the next week or so.  He's been having headaches, so my sister is worried, but nothing official.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2011, 01:49:16 PM »
Terry that is a shame. I hope and pray he comes through without any lasting effects. I just don't think the board acted correctly. We tossed a guy for cheating long ago, i guess times have changed. Too good a game to have a jackass do this to a kid.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2011, 01:53:52 PM »
Terry that is a shame. I hope and pray he comes through without any lasting effects. I just don't think the board acted correctly. We tossed a guy for cheating long ago, i guess times have changed. Too good a game to have a jackass do this to a kid.

C'est la vie.  I've been on plenty of boards and appeared in front of plenty of boards.  "You don't always get what you want," is the appropriate phrase for me and for him, it would hopefully be, "If you try sometimes, you get what you need," because I don't wish suffering on anybody.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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