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Tommy_Naccarato

Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« on: January 08, 2002, 05:12:14 PM »
Since the size of this will no doubt go off the screen, I'm putting it in its own thread.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2002, 05:33:59 PM »
Hollywood Lovers,

When you get to the bottom of the picture, the holes to the left of the road are from Deal Golf club, and unfortunatley, at the top of the picture, part of the 11th hole with its wonderful green and bunkering is cut off.

I believe some holes at Deal were once Hollywood's and they sold or traded to them.

Notice the incredible number of cross bunkers.
Notice the incredible number of bunkers

Unfortunately, you can't get a feel for the green contours which are REALLY fabulous.

Geoffrey C,

You should play Hollywood with me next Spring or Summer.
Ran played it with me this summer and loved it.
Hopefully, he will get around to posting the golf course profile of Hollywood this year.

Keep in mind that Hollywood is only a mile +or - from the Atlantic Ocean, and as such, gets some pretty nice breezes form the east and west.

It's a fabulous course, fun to play.  One of my golf fantasies would be to play it as pictured above.

Rees did a terrific job with a limited restoration and some improvements, like the green on # 14.  It's unfortunate that the members didn't want to go back to the course in its pictured state.   Perhaps an incoming President will continue with some restoration work, despite a major clubhouse renovation project that is being embarked upon currently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2002, 07:27:17 PM »
Tommy - Thanks for posting this aerial again.  Its remarkable what difficult golf courses all those average players had to endure in those days  ;)

Mike Cirba- Thanks for remembering about it!

Pat - Count me in for a round at Hollywood. Anytime!

It's hard to tell from the aerial but I don't get the impression that Hollywood has much elevation change on the property.  Is it a rather flat piece of land?

There is a par 3 about 80% of the way down the photo on the left edge that has an extremely unusual green shape.  It looks like a snail without a shell trying to move. Is that hole preserved/restored as shown in the aerial?  In fact I see quite a variety of green shapes on the course that I hope are still there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2002, 07:27:36 PM »
Thanks, Tommy!

Patrick,

I was going to point out the holes from Deal on the bottom left, but you beat me to it! ;)

I agree with you about the 14th green.  The lower left portion that was built creates all kinds of strategic decisions.

What can't be seen from the aerial are the internal green contours.  They are stunning, varied, from rolls and mounds to wrinkles and ridges.  Oh, that it could still be played as pictured with ALL of the original bunkering intact!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2002, 07:49:22 PM »
Tommy

These photos bring back some amazing memories to me, but I can assure you that when I walked around the periphery of the course on a late Sudnay morning in 1989 with the woman who would eventually become my wife, Travis' bunkering was the last thing on my mind!

Thanks

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2002, 08:16:39 PM »
Geoffrey C,

Yes that is the par 3, 15th hole.

I haven't seen the extreme front left pin location used that often.  The frightening position is back right, because it's narrow, the ground falls away sharply to the right by about 20 plus feet, and out of bounds is right next to it.  If you go long, or long left, you're chipping or pitching to a green that slopes away from you.  And, while the trees can block the wind, it is still a factor to contend with.  The green is relatively shallow, and looks even shallower, and the bunkers look ominous from the tee.  

It also enjoys the privilege of following the neat 14th hole.

I would say that Hollywood enjoys 16 really interesting greens, and some might say 18, in addition to their bunkers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GMP

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2002, 08:57:15 PM »
Boy, those straight lines outlining the course & white space surrounding it look totally unnatural! :)

Where's the infamous 17th? It's a little hard to get your bearings on this pic if you're not familiar with the property.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2002, 11:04:19 PM »
George,
Those lines sort of make the whole site very un-natural don't they? ! ? !

Rich,
I'm sure that adding the name of Hollywood to your resume of courses played could have been part of your thought too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2002, 12:16:11 AM »
Granted, the bunkers are intricate and ambitious but for me they just don't work.   A few look like those anti-slip daisies that go in the bottom of bathtubs.  Was Travis a fan of the architect, Gaudy?

 I have not played the course so I am only exposing my ignorance but that's how I see it. Would love to play it though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2002, 03:07:08 AM »
Slag,

You're right; a couple DO look like those bathtub thingys! :)

However, take another look.  One of the really cool things about Hollywood, even with the loss of many of them, is that Travis's original bunker shapes are about every possible variety in terms of size, shape, clustering, positioning, depth, profile, etc..  That variety, as well as the strategic considerations, are why they fascinate.  

They certainly weren't cookie-cutter, even the symmetrical ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2002, 11:58:00 AM »
It truly is amazing, novel and a wonderous model of an energetic and keen imagination. A veritable classroom for bunker pupils. It has strategic and penal and esthetic design structure.    "It has too many notes" for this dullard minimalist philistine.   I give it praise for its being unique and bold, two words that describe the AMC Matador, an ugly car.  (Hollywood is not ugly but it sure wears a lot of ornate, old lady jewelry and makeup.)

 I would still love to play it and be wrong as I'm sure I am.  Perhaps it would open my eyes to the brilliance of other visionaries like Desmond Muirhe.... nah!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2002, 02:29:22 PM »
some time ago you used to be able to call to get the club history (published in 1998) through the club - (732) 531-0900. Don't know if this is still existing policy, but it might be worth a shot, and would certainly be a great addition to any library, particularly for those of us Travis lovers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2002, 03:13:40 PM »
Coincidentally - does Wexler's "Missing Links" have anything on Norwood Country Club? It was a Tillinghast design and I believed it shared property lines with Holllywood, as well as a number of members.

Can anyone give me any color?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2002, 04:49:37 PM »
Slag,

I look at the aerial and salivate, you see visions of Des.

Aerials don't tell a complete story.  Recent Aerials will not provide the information nor feel for today's course.  It must be played to be more intimately evaluated, and the playing experience is a joy.  I would suspect the same was true of the old course.

SPDB,

Deal Golf course is adjacent to Hollywood, and Hollywood did cede them some holes many years ago.  I haven't heard of Norwood  Golf  Club.  Norwood is a small town in Bergen county N.J, about 50 miles north of Hollywood.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2002, 07:57:35 AM »
Pat - The story as I understand it, is that some of Hollywood's original land was also given to Norwood Country Club, in addition to the land that was given to Deal Golf Club (evidently they had enough to go around). Most of Norwood's land is in Long Branch, not Deal. The course was either designed, or redesigned, by Tillinghast (on Tillinghast.net, Norwood is listed as "extinct."
 
As the story also goes, the Norwood C.C. was decimated by the Depression and failed, despite the inclusion on its membership rolls of several prominent NY families.

I thought it would be interesting to see what the quality of this course would be, if for nothing else to imagine the juxtaposition of two great tracks (assuming NCC was good), in the same vein as Shinnecock/NGLA, Quaker/WF
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2002, 09:35:11 AM »
SPDB,
    Don't forget the neighbors at Olympic/SFGC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2002, 09:40:12 AM »
FYI,
    Here's a modern aerial of Hollywood:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zoom=9&mapdata=cbPRZSKSHGQSdjY7ugwIfKzzJyPlSKt3V8e9ETioksIyBJTL6g2Lsd4is6rJ3e4uW68x4oEJrPwwZOKxSIH%2b%2fssXK%2bO429ZAAaEwcm
2o6fxW7rxcNgb%2faumfiUKZxHnpa3p6I%2bblZ5cdGcL027YGB89JQG8R9vY23lnSkTUpIR3tO%2b%2
bYXuQQ1JM5imjKZ2QUC6HexOf3LnzQjTwN2YWRVBs42g0dCoj2cnFx53hFtwtrD2HdKEIqPfsl1N8RiY
xZ2rzB8xCTEEhxhJFe8py8Kg%3d%3d

Pan to the left to see the rest of the course.  Obviously, Tommy's pic is turned 90 degrees from this one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2002, 10:28:30 AM »
Great photos Tommy!!!

For what it's worth -- you can easily make the case that Hollywood is among the top five courses in the Garden State.

The efforts carried forward by Rees Jones (no intended bias / favoritism here) were done well, and, yes, it would be nice to have the course in its original form but unfortunately that will not happen.

GeoffreyC: Does make you think how demanding some of the old time classics were given the technology (lack thereof) for those times was???

Hollywood is one of those "hidden gems" that is being noticed by more and more people -- deservingly so.

P.S. For fans of old time classic I also recommend the Charles Banks Course at Forsgate in nearby Jamesburg, NJ (Exit 8A off the NJ Tpke).  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2002, 11:04:43 AM »
Matt - in your opinion, how has National Fairways done with their management of Forsgate?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2002, 02:59:51 PM »
SPDB:

In answering your question you've got to give credit to National Fairway for their work at Forsgate after purchasing the property from Matrix.

As I'm sure you know the ups and downs of Forsgate over the many years is a story that really is amazing. Here is a property that was shaped into its form by a very underrated architect (Charles Banks) and offers so many wonderful holes throughout the course of play. Management practices over the years have been inconsistent until most recently through Matrix and now National Fairways.

National Fairway has made major investments in upgrading the course and clubhouse. In my opinion, I really like the Banks Course and see it as a member of the Garden State's top ten layouts -- give credit to National Fairways because the course in my mind never looked and played better than in 01.

I know there will be plenty of people who might think the course is a tad short by modern standards, but how can you devalue the quality of the unique putting surfaces and the massive bunkers that flank many of these precarious targets.

The Banks Course has a stylish and strong set of diverse par-3's -- in my opinion, the 3rd is easily among the best par-3's in NJ and I would include it among my quartet of 3 par holes if any 18-hole All-Star unit was put together in NJ. There are also other holes that are really solid and the finishing run always keeps players honest.

National Fairways has done well -- the bigger question is in sustaining that momentum. All signs at this point seem to be positive and I think any fan of "classic" style architecture will enjoy what they find.

Anyone playing the twosome of Hollywood and The Banks Course / Forsgate is sure to be one happy camper -- they're two of Jersey's finest.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2002, 08:47:52 PM »
SPDB,

YES!

Daniel Wexler's book includes a chapter on Norwood!

I think you'd enjoy it, given your interest.  BUY the book!

Mike (hooked on exclamation points, but simply trying to share my enthusiasm for a wonderful book to another golf course nut like myself)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Davenport

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2002, 07:55:26 AM »
Regarding Norwood CC--this courtesy of The Tillinghast Assoc. website...

A BRIEF HISTORY OF NORWOOD COUNTRY CLUB

WEST LONG BRANCH, N.J.

By Kathy Showler Elfner

Head Golf Pro - George L. Fotherham
Assistant Golf Pro - Johnny Showler
My Dad : John Showler

Hollywood Golf Club abandoned its west end site and this site became the home of the new Norwood Country Club, which was incorporated in October of 1914. The new club leased the property from Hollywood, with James Lloyd executing the subleasing arrangement.

The golf course later was redesigned by A.W. Tillinghast, and the clubhouse rebuilt by the noted clubhouse architect of the time, Clifford C. Wendehack after the original building was destroyed by fire in 1919.

There was considerable overlap in membership between the two clubs, Hollywood and Norwood, and Hollywood offered the Norwood members use of its clubhouse facilities while their new clubhouse was being built. Norwood failed in the mid-1930's because of the depression, the real estate eventually falling into the hands of Hollywood member Howard Strauss. He sold the property to the West Long Branch Lion's Club in 1953, and the by-then dilapidated clubhouse was restored to become the West Long Branch community center the following year.

From Hollywood Golf Club - The First Hundred Years

The following was provided by Mary Gibbons Showler who worked in the office of the club and met and later married John Showler.

Norwood country club consisted of an 18 hole golf course, two polo fields, tennis courts, golf shop and club house, which was in the English Tudor style. Polo matches were arranged with other clubs in the area such as Suneagles.

It was the most exclusive club in the area whose members included the Gimbels, the Guggenheims and the like.

As you entered the foyer, there was a large blue rug with the club seal. The office was on the right and the stairs to the ladies’ locker room was on the left. The locker room was done in salmon pink. Beyond the foyer was a huge room where members came and met. There still remains the massive fireplace on the left. Here too were large rugs with the club seal. The men’s' locker room was above the kitchen and there was also a barber, masseur, shoeshine boy and valet boys whom were dressed similar to bell hops in full uniform with matching caps. Above the dinning room, there was an apartment for the manager, the last one being a gentleman by the name of Schwartz.

Off the dining room that was long and had many French doors, was a sunken garden. The members used this for parties and dances. They laid a wooden floor for these purposes and many famous bands of the era came to play such as Guy Lombardo, Lester Lanin and Dorsey.

The crash of 1929 hit the members of the club very hard because they had invested very heavily in the stock market. Eventually, the club went bankrupt. It lay dormant but part of it was finally resurrected as the Community Center. The Police Department and Library are both housed in the back. The polo fields and golf course now are all private homes and a senior citizen complex.

Although a part of the club remains, much has changed or has been torn down and renovated. The fireplace in the main room stands as a monument to remind all of a bygone era ñ the leisure lifestyle of the local rich and famous.

 Norwood CC as seen from the top of the tennis house.

The Model "T" is my Dad’s

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2002, 01:15:50 PM »
Matt - thanks for the history. It's amazing that the Guggenheim's, Gimbel's and Strauss' couldn't keep it up.

Mike - Until I get the book can you fill me in on what it has to say about the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2002, 08:01:16 PM »
SPDB,

Well, it's a lot, actually.  Along with a full page, color course layout, a picture of the clubhouse, it also includes 3 full pages of text, describing the course and individual holes.

I'll give you some idea of the text.

"At 137 yards, the third (known as Dainty Drop) was an eye-catcher, and somewhat unique to the Tillinghast portfolio.  Not that there was anything particularly different about his building a small, tightly-bunkered green, but the bunkering on this short one-shotter was especially inspired, its free-form shaping extending well back into the fairway in a sort of Charles Alison meets Dr. MacKenzie hybrid."

HOW Norwood would measure up today:

"A notch or two beneath the New York/New Jersey elite, but its wild bunkering and large doses of Tillinghast polish would still guarantee it a spot on any list of noteworthy area courses."

The book is chock-full of such little gems, and the amount of research that went into it had to have been staggering.  

I recommend it highly!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hollywood Aerial(Large Version)
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2002, 07:41:16 AM »
SPDB,

What is equally amazing is, with all the wealthy members, especially many top real estate people, that the club didn't have the foresight to buy their perimeter property, and now many holes like # 2, 9,10,11,12, have houses right on top of them.  Trees were then planted to provide a visual barrier, and in some cases, as those trees matured, they adversely affected the hole.  # 9 is a perrfect example.

But, it's still a great course and a great club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »