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JMEvensky

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2011, 09:47:36 AM »


No matter what folks think of MM's style, his points are crucially salient to golf architecture.   

 

+1

I don't always completely agree with MHM,but I'm glad he's out there banging the drum.

Jud_T

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2011, 09:52:50 AM »
No matter what folks think of MM's style, his points are crucially salient to golf architecture.  Lets face it, the cart has arguably been the single most important factor in changing architecture these past 40 years.  This tool has allowed for all sorts of stuff to be built which relies on the cart and predictably, the cart is now seen as essential revenue for both private and public courses.  This in essence gives the green light to push tees further and further away from greens.  Hell, we even have guys saying Tobacco Road (which by any measure would have been deemed a terrible walk in the heyday of good design) is very walkable.  That is a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one.  The entire concept of walking is predicated on short green to tee walks.  It doesn't mean much to say a course is walkable - the test is it an enjoyable walk.  For most, The Road would fail this test.  Furthermore, how many greatly hailed new courses which are meant to be good walks are nowhere near as pleasurable as classic era courses?  This could indeed be down to the modern concept of architecture influenced by cart use changing our perception of what is a good, reasonable, or terrible walk.  All of this is VERY clear to me when I go back to the States to play newer courses.  In general there is no comparison to wlaking classic era courses.  The question becomes, is the direction architecture and thus the game should be heading?  

Ciao  

Sean,

No doubt a valid point.  However two things:

1.  Many of the worst offenders were real estate courses.  Not much need to worry about this one, at least for the rest of this decade.

2.  When you have players playing tees between 5000 and 7000, it's pretty tough to avoid additional walking, regardless of how much you try to design for it.  i.e. the equipment/ball issue...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:00:31 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2011, 10:09:26 AM »
Jud apart from the First at Deal all the tees were within a 20-30 yard walk of the previous green. Now with lengthening you can walk up to 100 yards back to the tee. It is possible to reduce walking in new courses if the back tee is close to the green and you walk forwards to the tees not back.
Cave Nil Vino

Jud_T

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2011, 10:11:27 AM »
It is possible to reduce walking in new courses if the back tee is close to the green and you walk forwards to the tees not back.

I'm not sure the ladies playing off 5000 would agree with you on this...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2011, 10:48:19 AM »
Jud apart from the First at Deal all the tees were within a 20-30 yard walk of the previous green. Now with lengthening you can walk up to 100 yards back to the tee. It is possible to reduce walking in new courses if the back tee is close to the green and you walk forwards to the tees not back.

Chappers

Its a great idea if the course is mostly used for events played off the back tees.  If we are talking about a member's club, its one of the worst suggestions I can think of.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bill_McBride

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2011, 01:35:54 PM »
No matter what folks think of MM's style, his points are crucially salient to golf architecture.  Lets face it, the cart has arguably been the single most important factor in changing architecture these past 40 years.  This tool has allowed for all sorts of stuff to be built which relies on the cart and predictably, the cart is now seen as essential revenue for both private and public courses.  This in essence gives the green light to push tees further and further away from greens.  Hell, we even have guys saying Tobacco Road (which by any measure would have been deemed a terrible walk in the heyday of good design) is very walkable.  That is a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one.  The entire concept of walking is predicated on short green to tee walks.  It doesn't mean much to say a course is walkable - the test is it an enjoyable walk.  For most, The Road would fail this test.  Furthermore, how many greatly hailed new courses which are meant to be good walks are nowhere near as pleasurable as classic era courses?  This could indeed be down to the modern concept of architecture influenced by cart use changing our perception of what is a good, reasonable, or terrible walk.  All of this is VERY clear to me when I go back to the States to play newer courses.  In general there is no comparison to wlaking classic era courses.  The question becomes, is the direction architecture and thus the game should be heading? 

Ciao 

That Dixie Cup you played in was a wonderful contrast in "walkability."   Our first round was at Mid Pines, where I think there is only one walk over 30 yards from green to tee.  Pine Needles in the afternoon was a bit longer but not much.   The next day was Tobacco Road.    Only hardcore walkers could call it "walkable."   I walked the front and was happy to hop on a cart for the back nine.

PCCraig

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2011, 02:05:30 PM »
Pat Craig, just out of curiousity, how many times have you been invited to Augusta National and how many players did you see riding carts?

My experience based upon 3 multi day visits  to ANGC is that 80% of the players walk with caddies and that the older members (those in their 70s and older) ride in carts.  

ANGC celebrates the values of the game and walking with a caddie there is one of golf's truly special experiences!

As for the Golf Digest US Top 100 courses that offer only a cartball only round, the Hall of Shame would include:

1)  Alotian-27 miles of concrete but not a wasted day as the food and particularly the milkshakes are delicious, not suprisingly many of their members look like they could use a free coupon for Jenny Craig
2)  Black Rock (Idaho)-routing decisions placed much of the course on the unwalkable cliffs overlooking the lake...club was close to shutting down until older cartball members purchased club
3)  Canyata-had not sold a single membership when I visiited, wonder why...
4)  Mountaintop-club culture is for 5 plus hour rounds replete with 8 minute scenic cartball drives between holes and amazing Discover Land food stops

Should be pointed out that the Golf Magazine US Top 100 does not include any of these cartball venues.

None of the Golf Magazine World Top 100 courses (have played 96 on the current list) or the Golf World UK Top 50 courses (have played 40 of the current list) require a golf cart.

Different strokes (literally) for different folks...







Bill,

Once, for a weekend. I was joking. :)

« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:16:27 PM by Pat_Craig »
H.P.S.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2011, 02:32:44 PM »
Bill

Who drives the design, the owner or the designer?

If it’s the owner then he selected the site (I presume) leaving the designer to make the best out of it. Or more worryingly, in fact far more worryingly is if the designer is responsible for the questionable state of being able to walk a golf course or resort to cartballing.

Should we be addressing the architects and designers asking them to prove their design credentials for golf courses – by that I mean courses where you walk or can walk if able. Or do we go down the line in separating the architects/designers into two distinct groups for Cartballing or Golf Course. Should this site even be discussing Cartballing as it’s called Golf Course Atlas and not Cartball Atlas.

Also regards this sites favourite pastime of listing courses, should not the golfing magazines stop this grouping and segregate walking from no walking courses as its seem totally untrustworthy to keep grouping two different games.

Perhaps that just proves how useless the rating/lists are.

Melvyn
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:46:18 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Matt MacIver

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2011, 03:08:31 PM »
FWIW re: T-Road and Tot Hill, I've walked both, in the summer humidty. 

For my next rounds: I would consider walking T-Road again in the spring or fall; I wouldn't relish a summer walk. 

I wouldn't walk Tot Hill in any season; perhaps only if I had a caddy or was playing with just five clubs (but I would still need a full box of balls....). 

Love 'em both tho!

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2011, 03:18:18 PM »
Melvyn whilst not disagreeing with you "cartball"'is your terminology no one else's.

Life is about choices and whilst we may not agree with some peoples choices as long as they are within the law it is the individuals decision.
Cave Nil Vino

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2011, 03:32:05 PM »

Mark

I agree

But Cart Golfing is not Golfing, just look at them, one allows for the wear and tear on the cart and courses the other only on the golfer.  Lawful due to the brilliance of the R&A. Fatigue on swing and one’s game just not taken into account so cannot see how they can be regarded as the same game.

Freedom of choice yes but changing the ground rules too, means it can't be golf.

Melvyn

Garland Bayley

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2011, 03:38:31 PM »
Melvyn whilst not disagreeing with you "cartball"'is your terminology no one else's.

...

The USGA published a booklet entitled as I recall, "Golf is a Walking Game". In that booklet, they wrote that if your are riding while playing you are not playing golf, but perhaps something that can be called cartball. Therefore the term cartball has been used on this website for a few years now from that derivation.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

PCCraig

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2011, 05:34:01 PM »
Melvyn whilst not disagreeing with you "cartball"'is your terminology no one else's.

...

The USGA published a booklet entitled as I recall, "Golf is a Walking Game". In that booklet, they wrote that if your are riding while playing you are not playing golf, but perhaps something that can be called cartball. Therefore the term cartball has been used on this website for a few years now from that derivation.


So you're saying the USGA calls it "cartball"...without ever using the term "cartball." Ever.

You've been quoting this mysterious USGA booklet for a few years now. Care to actually post it? Or is it a special edition that resides only in your mind?
H.P.S.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2011, 05:40:45 PM »
Pat,

It exists:

http://walkinggolf.com/blog/?page_id=5

Call and get your copy.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2011, 06:06:06 PM »


Ops Pat, perhaps this is a lesson to engage your brain before opening your mouth.

Think you owe Garland one hell of an apology, but are you man enough to do so????

Melvyn


David Kelly

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2011, 06:44:20 PM »
Pat,

It exists:

http://walkinggolf.com/blog/?page_id=5

Call and get your copy.

So this is what it looks like when the USGA declares war?  The walkinggollf.com website hasn't been updated since August 2009 and all of the comments on the site are just spam. The most recent post is a reprint of a 1992 GD article.

What have been the results of the USGA's war on cartball?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Kyle Harris

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2011, 06:51:21 PM »
The "Golf is a Walking Game" pamphlet accompanied the "walking member" tag which you could get by checking the appropriate box on a USGA membership form. The bag tag is circular and yellow. The booklet featured Snoopy and advocated the many advantages to walking. I have a copy somewhere amongst my things.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2011, 07:02:00 PM »
Melvyn,

Please join this Society and when you visit the USA walk to your heart's contentment:

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com

However, as the Society's Mission Statement sets forth:

We respect the right of an individual to take a golf cart when they play, whether for physical or personal reasons.

That's what I meant by Freedom of Choice in my post above.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2011, 08:09:49 PM »

Steve

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/why_i_walk.html  note the date from Feb 2009, nevertheless thanks for the info.

If you are going to play golf, play golf and that means no carts, if you want to ride then play whatever you want to call it, but it is not golf. You cannot play golf unless you walk, riding keeps you fresh and has a strong bearing on one’s performance. Giving the rider a great advantage.

So please play your games but just respect that it’s not golf. If others seek respect and consideration when deciding to ride, then the same is due to the golfer who is committed to playing the real game by walking. An additional honourable thing to do is confirm that the two games are different by definition that the rider does walk the 5 to 7,000yards plus. A golfer tires while a cartballer rider hardly breaks into a sweat.

Only the R&A could come up with this stupid mixture and believe it fair.

Melvyn


A.G._Crockett

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2011, 08:34:40 PM »
Deleted
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:40:22 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2011, 10:03:14 PM »
AC

The question was an open and honest one. Your comments are childish and uncalled for while being quite frankly what I would expect form someone considering to betray his own belief by riding.

What your real problem is I really do not know or care, but on a site like this the subject matter is very much relevant. Also due to forcing revenue out of players in this manner i.e. required to ride or not play certain courses, it was in part some of this information I was originally seeking by my question.

At your age I would have expected more tolerance, but you prefer to rant about the thought, concerns and opinions of others. Your attitude stinks for a member of GCA.com which is about GCA & design and you should be ashamed that you can't deal with a single voice from the wilderness.

Walker perhaps, but you are not much of a man if you acquiesce this quickly, thought more of you than that.

Melvyn
  

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #146 on: September 27, 2011, 04:40:10 AM »
I'm firmly in support of Melvyn's basic principal that golf is a better game played on foot, but fall far short of his more fundamentalist views.  Golf is Golf whether you're walking, riding, crawling, swimming, it doesn't matter.  That is my free expression for what it is worth.

I'd like to drop in a link to a blog I wrote on this subject, which I hope some of you will take a minute to read.  I really can't stand playing golf from a cart, but I'm a pragmatic golf architect and understand that, even though it pains me to do so, I often need to add a road to the periphery of the holes.  Once reconciled to the fact that I have to do this, I actually quite enjoy the task, as the article explains.

http://www.egd.com/blog/?p=902

Melvyn, I'm definitely standing at your end of the ground.  You're too hardcore for me to want to stand next to you, but provided you keep the language clean I've no personal objection to hearing your views.  They add colour.

Incidentally, I wonder if there is a skiing website somewhere where someone rallies against the development of chair lifts?  Just a thought.   :)


2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (North), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Francisco

Mike Sweeney

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #147 on: September 27, 2011, 05:53:05 AM »

Incidentally, I wonder if there is a skiing website somewhere where someone rallies against the development of chair lifts?  Just a thought.   :)


http://timefortuckerman.com/

More of a "celebration of skiing/climbing" at Tuckerman's than a "rally against chairs", but there must be a Melvyn or two on their forums.  :D

Robin, I would actually take it one step further than you (closer to Mel  ??? ). Skiing Tuckerman's and "Extreme Skiing" is a different level of skiing in comparison to the well groomed trails of Stratton or Deer Valley or the bunny slopes where we taught our kids in Connecticut.

Not sure what to call golf with a cart, but it is a different "level" of golf for sure when you walk rather than ride Yale this past Sunday in the late summer humidity. I am personally ready for fall temperatures to come in this weekend.

Not against carts, but I am not against taking a cheap shot or two at my now almost 16 year old son who would rather drive than walk. Perhaps after he gets his drivers license, he will become a "real" golfer!

Tuckerman Trails

« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:59:41 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #148 on: September 27, 2011, 06:50:20 AM »

Robin

Thanks for your post. As for the skiing, chair lifts just get you to the starting, as cars get us to the golf club (or is it Cart ball Club). I am not against how you get to the course be it skiing or golfing, but I am keen that the games are played as they have traditionally been for centuries and on the appropriate course. Would a skier dream of using a chair lift to travel down the course or would he prefer to ski, I believe the latter as it generates that basic fundamental feeling that lets you know who is in control, who is performing each and every action, the skier, so in golf throw away the toys, the burdens that detract the player from golfing. 

As for my language, it has always been fairly clean, yet on occasion I have let my guard down and fallen to the poor standards of others, usually after being provoked.

Golf is indeed golf and for over five and a half to six centuries it has been a walking game, how at a stroke the governing body can allow the player to suddenly rest between shots instead of undertaken the exertion of also conquering the course by walking it. How can carting, cartballing, riding a cart all be considered as golfing, because riding eliminates a major core of the physical component of the game.

Also its not stopped there, it has defaced many a golf course, forcing a long walk between Greens and Tees, requires a considerable extra input regards maintenance be it on the fairways or cart tracks. All that after the physical and mental effect on the player – yes mental as the players line of vision are compromised as the cart may only be allowed on parts or paths on the course thus effecting his/her obtaining the same input as a Walker.

As for hardcore, no I am just staying loyal to the game. I see others not just drifting but running scared from the game be it because they consider courses too penal having only been introduced to the game that uses a cart. They cannot see let alone rise to the challenge, which is understandable if all you have known is carting.

Golf requires the Golfer to take on the challenge, not just of walking but facing the Designers efforts to throw him off kilter while navigating the design, hopefully linked closely with that done by Nature. Am I a purist, no, just a middle of the road golfer wanting to play on golf courses using Gods gifts to improve my skill and game levels. The satisfaction of achieving a fair to good round unaided rewards the real golfer in only the way he can understand, right Robin.  ;)

My views are perhaps acquired in a different way to most on this site. From a young age I had TOC at the bottom of the garden, my father being a good golfer and full of information on our family history and golfing connection. The constant reminders be it in The R&A club house, the town, the old cathedral or the many golf courses in Fife and GB that had the hand of not just one but many great designers that I have a bloodline too. All this was wonder and glitter to a young boy being taught the game by great uncles who remember many of the greats from their times up to the second world war.

It should not surprise anyone why my feeling for golf are as they are, the game is living through many generation of my family going back to a ball maker in old St Andrews town called Robertson who marries a Morris in 1720. Hardcore, no just a passion that the game should be played as it has come down to use, by that I mean walking the golf courses.

Melvyn


Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?
« Reply #149 on: September 27, 2011, 07:05:54 AM »
Thanks Melvyn.  That was a beautifully written reply. 

I was being a touch sarcastic about the skiing analogy, but you disarmed it extremely well.

Just out of curiousity, what is your view of trolleys and powered trolleys?  I'm a bag carrier myself, but to what extent do you believe trolleys aid the game, or is it your view that they are basically surrogate caddies? I promise you, there's no angles played here, but I do know that i'm probably placing myself at a physical disadvantage by shouldering a bag for 4+ hours than having it motored around for me.

Best

Robin

 



2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (North), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Francisco

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