[Jud_T]

yet another way American ingenuity has improved an elitist pastime:

http://www.eventsdepartment.com/golfcartpolo.html

[Peter Ferlicca]

About every single high end private club out here in the Coachella Valley promotes riding.  Two things, most of the courses are built over severe terrain were walking is hard, second, they are all built with residential in mind so the golf holes are spread out quite a bit.  Most members just buy there own golf cart and drive around everywhere.  EX:  Bighorn, Stone Eagle, Ironwood, Reserve, Tradition, Quarry, and so on. 

[Kyle Harris]

50 years of hitting a ball with a stick and Melvyn tells me I am not playing GOLF because I ride around the course in a cart sometimes.  Its funny, but not once has my CART hit the ball, not once has it told me the distance I needed, not once has it blinded me to the strategy of play and the architects intent.

I for one am pretty sick and tired of Melvyn constantly claiming that he knows better than I what GOLF is because he is a decendent of Old Tom Morris and happens to live on the other side of the pond.

Craig:

Going to call foul on this one. I'm not one for Melvyn's rhetoric usually but I'm also not one for misrepresentation of a statement either. I think you'll listen.

First: Melvyn did not say you haven't been playing golf for 50 years. He did say that when you have ridden in a cart over that time, you haven't.

Second: While the cart did not hit the ball for you, et al. The cart DID reduce the physical requirements necessary for getting to the ball and around the golf course. So, by the 16th hole the cart has most likely eliminated 2-3 miles of walking from your round. That very much influences your swing. Also, the cart provides storage for a number of things that a walker would otherwise have to carry like an umbrella, water bottle, etc.

The idea here is that the cart takes away aspects of the traditional sporting element of golf (sport as Man vs. Nature not as athletic display). At which critical point of sporting reduction has golf ceased to be golf? I think we all know where Melvyn draws that line, no matter how inelegantly he puts it.

Are there any backpackers on GolfClubAtlas?

"For most Americans, golf has become an activity and not a sport."
-Joe Bausch

[Kyle Harris]

Now, on the flip side, there are clearly great courses in existence that would never have been conceived on those sites without an emphasis on cart play.  Take one of my favourite architects Mike Strantz as an example.  I can think of three of his courses (Tot Hill Farm, Royal New Kent and Stonehouse) that would never have been built if it wasn't for carts.  The layouts are just not practical for an emphasis on walking. Tobacco Road may be a fourth, though I remember walking that without too much stress.  On balance, I expect we are more grateful for these and other similar courses being in existence thanks to there being carts to use.  Just let us walk if we want to.

Tobacco Road is incredibly walkable. I've never really understood this criticism.

I'd love to take a crack at walking Tot Hill Farm. I think it would be easier than many suppose. I played it in a cold, pouring rain back in March. The cart was.... useful.

[Sam Morrow]

The riding/walking debate is getting so old on this site. I wish we could talk about something other than people destroying the game by hopping in a cart.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Sam,

I hope so too.

"The gemme is meant for walkin'."-Shivas Irons, Golf in the Kingdom

HOWEVER, in the USA, the gemme has transformed and the meaning of golf is different for different people,clubs-private or public,etc. We will never see the day when carts are a thing of the past in the USA. Freedom of choice will prevail.

[Kyle Harris]

Freedom of choice will prevail.

Let's go exercise this freedom at Lederach or Southern Dunes.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Kyle,

Lederach for me, if it ever stops raining here.  I won't be in FL this winter.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Freedom of choice or is the cart the equivalent of a virus infecting the great game of golf, rendering players unfit to play the real game of golf. Becoming hooked on the cart as seen to be so easy to use no matter the cost to you, your game, the course and your pocket. Yes its like a virus that lays the golfer low to being just a player not committed to anything.

Without the cart would courses been built on sites not fit for purpose? As for long distances between Greens & Tees, just goes to show how committed the developers were to the game of golf that they created not golf courses but cartball courses from the start. You guys have moved the goal posts not for the improvement of the game, not for technological reasons but simply because someone perceived the people in that region as lazy, so desire to ride. Was there any debate at these new clubs, did potential members get a choice or was it offered as take it or leave it scenario, ride or no course.

Do not blame me, if many of the developers are just there to make money, that they care not for your opinions, but clearly send out that ‘live here and play the course then you have to use a cart’. Seems that the old USSR gave their people more choice than some golf course developers (well not golf course developers, they are builders who offer a courses as a carrot to attract buyers). 

Oh to have freedom of choice indeed.

Sam, like others, you do not have to read my topics/posts.

Melvyn

[Sam Morrow]

Melvyn I never said your name. Feeling guilty?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sam

Certainly not, its a very important subject if you are into Golf, perhasp not so if yout thing is cartball

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

...

Are there any backpackers on GolfClubAtlas?

...

Thanks for the image of a hiker taking a "hiking cart" out on the trails. I presume it would be more work than walking, because the width would be too much to fit the trail. My last hike was in Mt. St. Helens park. I didn't think to look over the cliff for all the carts at the bottom, because they ran out of room on the narrow trail traversing it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike, William and Sven

There is nothing wrong with a cart, but once you use it to play golf you change the basic dynamics of the game. In fact you create a new variation of the game. The very acts of riding instead of walking removes the player from the game of golf into whatever you call your new sport ‘Cartball’ or are you such a lazy sod that you can’t commit let alone  persevere with a game called golf. It’s certainly is not golf because you have removed 50% of the structure, its heart and essence to say nothing of the pleasure of the game by not walking.


Melvyn

Melvyn:

I wonder why you felt the need to address me on your post #99 partially copied above.  I have not once in this thread made a statement that goes against your missive.

I'll quote a response I made to one of your diatribes from last December:

"You remind me of an Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor that has mistakenly wandered into a meeting of The Temperance Society.  We, as the teetotaling members of said group, have no idea why you're yelling at us to stay off the bottle.  I'd suggest you check your schedule, get the designated meeting space correct and start delivering your sermon to an audience deserving of your passionate delivery.  There have to be a couple forums out there you could join with names such as "You and Your Distance Finder, Friends for Life" or "Fire, The Wheel, Gunpowder, The Golf Cart:  A Lesson in Progress"."

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sven

And right here is where you've lost me Mel. Clint told you to quit beating a dead horse, he didn't lock you up for espousing viewpoints detrimental to the sovereign state. The funny thing about pulling out the freedom of speech card, it works both ways.

So Clint TOLD me, is it a dead horse, what’s detrimental, what is freedom if we cannot offer our views or opinions, oh yes Clint TOLD me to quit beating a dead horse, sorry forgot the told bit.

It’s not dead, you guys may have accepted playing cartball, that’s your choice, but carts have an effect on GCA and the way golf is played – fact, it’s also alien to the history and traditions of the game of golf.

As for my posts, anything with a bearing on the game of golf and GCA has a place on this site. Tell me why do so many of you guys beat not only a horse but every other living thing to death over course ratings and listings, just what have they to do with GCA.

I do believe that for the most part my posts relate to GCA topics.

As for ‘diatribes’, nothing bitter or violent, yes I am not necessary in agreement in the use of distance aids but that’s believing that the golfer can better these aids through his natural senses and skills.  That message I will repeat hoping that some try to play without these stupid aids.

Have a nice day

Melvyn    

[Jud_T]

That message I will repeat

My nomination for most prescient post of the year, and perhaps of all time, on GCA...

[Ben Sims]

Melvyn,

I vowed never to address you again.  I just can't take it anymore.  Why do you write about freedom of speech when people ask you to stop with the cart diatribes but decry freedom of choice over the use of carts?  Live and let live.  Sven's paragraph from last December about knowing your audience rings true.  I recommend you never visit golfwrx.com or you might keel over from the shear shock of it. We're the good guys.  Stop yelling at us.  It wastes bandwidth.

As to your question, it seems to me that it serves absolutely no purpose to try and name the specific clubs that promote walking over riding.  I think you'd be better served to--instead of dig up names of golf courses--try and get a working percentage of private clubs that promote/require carts.  I think you'd find it to be a pretty small percentage.  That isn't to say that walking is the most prevalent means of playing at those clubs, but I know of just a handful of clubs that wouldn't allow walking if you wanted.

That said Melvyn.  I will never understand why your tactic in your fight is to insult the merit of the folks you're trying to rehabilitate.  That is not the way to win friends and influence people to not ride carts my friend. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven

And right here is where you've lost me Mel. Clint told you to quit beating a dead horse, he didn't lock you up for espousing viewpoints detrimental to the sovereign state. The funny thing about pulling out the freedom of speech card, it works both ways.

So Clint TOLD me, is it a dead horse, what’s detrimental, what is freedom if we cannot offer our views or opinions, oh yes Clint TOLD me to quit beating a dead horse, sorry forgot the told bit.

It’s not dead, you guys may have accepted playing cartball, that’s your choice, but carts have an effect on GCA and the way golf is played – fact, it’s also alien to the history and traditions of the game of golf.

As for my posts, anything with a bearing on the game of golf and GCA has a place on this site. Tell me why do so many of you guys beat not only a horse but every other living thing to death over course ratings and listings, just what have they to do with GCA.

I do believe that for the most part my posts relate to GCA topics.

As for ‘diatribes’, nothing bitter or violent, yes I am not necessary in agreement in the use of distance aids but that’s believing that the golfer can better these aids through his natural senses and skills.  That message I will repeat hoping that some try to play without these stupid aids.

Have a nice day

Melvyn   

To quote a great American, "I'll be your huckleberry."

First, based on your response above, I have to seriously question your ability to comprehend the writing of others.  If you had paid attention, there was a thread on this site recently asking Who Really Walks.  The general consensus was that just about everyone here prefers to walk, but sometimes a cart is necessary due to the weather, rules, terrain, etc.  As Bill McBride wrote (I am paraphrasing here), sometimes, if it weren't for carts, he wouldn't be able to play at all.  Put me in the crowd that would rather play cartball than not play at all.  I understand and empathize with the argument that cartball is not real golf.  So be it, some of us aren't lucky enough to live somewhere where "real golf" is available 365 days a year.  As I said, I'd rather play fake golf than no type of golf at all.

Second, you may not mean to do it, but your writing is offensive.  Using generalized terms like "you guys" and language that appears to put the blame for what ails you on all of us does this group a disservice.  I have no problem if you want to rant and rave about developers or course owners and builders that adhere to designs that require carts (and in truth, an exploration of the roots of cartball would be an interesting dialogue).  However, sir, every time you throw blame at this group, you come across like a lunatic and I guarantee you piss some of us off.  There is no way to start a constructive conversation on your topic if your first move is a shot across the bows.

Third, your little statements of freedom of speech are laughable.  You are free to offer your views and opinions.  But what I don't think you understand is that everyone else here has the same level of freedom to tell you to give it a rest.  

Fourth, you probably don't realize this, but most of the vitriol you receive on this site is due to the volume of your message, not the content.  I think of you in the same light as I think of the Say No To Drugs campaign from the Nancy Reagan era.  It was interesting to come across a Your Brain on Drugs commercial every once in a while, but about the 100th time it was played it became overkill.  Now every time I see one of those ads all i can think is how misguided this approach is to address the problems it was designed to fight.  Just like the war on drugs needs a new tactic, you need a new approach.  Ranting and raving on a website comprised of individuals that are most likely on the same wavelength as yourself does little to help you effectively spread your message and transfer your knowledge to the populance.  Maybe its the only outlet you can think of, but I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could find a better avenue to direct the efforts of your crusade to preserve the game of golf as you define it.

In anticipation of your response, yes I do get it, no I am not restricting your freedom of speech, yes I do think you misunderstood my point and no I would not like to continue this conversation.

Cheers.

[Melvyn Morrow]

You guys, never in a million year would I have thought that those two words could be considered anything more than a term of endearment. When in the pub with friends or at home with family I ask if you guys want a drink, never believing I was doing a disservice or being unfriendly.

But then I suppose when I see or read statements like "I'll be your huckleberry" it sound so offensive, questioning my sexuality.      

As for the opinions of others, yes I take and understand many of the points made. I have always stated carts are fine for those who need them for mobility. Yet you ignore my current position I do not play golf due to pain, I can’t walk more than a 100 yards or so without resting my back,  and I do not play cartball so no long play golf (until the pain and my treatment resolves it) My belief in the game is that I will not play golf from a cart, as its not golf. Its not the game that was taught when I was young, to play golf you walk - period. My choice clearly and I feel it is the correct one as I see cartball totally pointless.

As for freedom of speech, I believe all have that basic right and I mean all.

Perhaps you may need to look at the bigger picture, if I believed that only the 1200 Members at times tuned into GCA.com then it is pointless to keep talking about certain subjects. But many non-members tune in and perhaps the message is repeated for their information or just adding in answers to the general topics started by others.

Just look at this topic, I asked for some simple information to help me understand this attitude and marketing behind carts to walking. No comments by me about carts, just asked for some names and a general lists. What did I get, a few responded saying this topic should be deleted – I hear very little from the other Members confirming that it’s a fair question from someone who has no info on American private clubs. Just some off on a rant because I dare to mention carts. Hell you guys talk more about course listings/ratings than any other subject, which does not have any basis in GCA, it’s a marketing subject.

What I do not understand is if I piss you all off why read my posts and then why respond?

Had my question  been answered and lists provided I could have looked up the clubs and read their web site which may or may not have helped, but it would have been nice for ‘you guys’ to have shown me some consideration by sticking to the question.

To those who have posted answers and those who have PM me with info I again thank you.

Do I believe the issue is important, yes, do I believe it is linked to GCA, yes, Do I believe many of you have a constructive  input and opinion on the subject, yes. Do I believe that others have a right to their opinion, yes. Do I believe that Golf Clubs should ban walking, no not unless they drop the word Golf from their site.

I wish you guys a pleasant evening and good health.

Melvyn  

[A.G._Crockett]

Now, on the flip side, there are clearly great courses in existence that would never have been conceived on those sites without an emphasis on cart play.  Take one of my favourite architects Mike Strantz as an example.  I can think of three of his courses (Tot Hill Farm, Royal New Kent and Stonehouse) that would never have been built if it wasn't for carts.  The layouts are just not practical for an emphasis on walking. Tobacco Road may be a fourth, though I remember walking that without too much stress.  On balance, I expect we are more grateful for these and other similar courses being in existence thanks to there being carts to use.  Just let us walk if we want to.

Tobacco Road is incredibly walkable. I've never really understood this criticism.

I'd love to take a crack at walking Tot Hill Farm. I think it would be easier than many suppose. I played it in a cold, pouring rain back in March. The cart was.... useful.

Tot Hill is much more walkable that Tobacco Road.  I have walked Tot Hill; I don't have much interest in Tobacco Road.

[Kyle Harris]

Now, on the flip side, there are clearly great courses in existence that would never have been conceived on those sites without an emphasis on cart play.  Take one of my favourite architects Mike Strantz as an example.  I can think of three of his courses (Tot Hill Farm, Royal New Kent and Stonehouse) that would never have been built if it wasn't for carts.  The layouts are just not practical for an emphasis on walking. Tobacco Road may be a fourth, though I remember walking that without too much stress.  On balance, I expect we are more grateful for these and other similar courses being in existence thanks to there being carts to use.  Just let us walk if we want to.

Tobacco Road is incredibly walkable. I've never really understood this criticism.

I'd love to take a crack at walking Tot Hill Farm. I think it would be easier than many suppose. I played it in a cold, pouring rain back in March. The cart was.... useful.

Tot Hill is much more walkable that Tobacco Road.  I have walked Tot Hill; I don't have much interest in Tobacco Road.

That wasn't thunder to those of you in Polk County, FL - that was the sound of my jaw hitting the floor.

[Craig Sweet]

Kyle it seems to me that Melvyn did say that GOLF is a walking game and if you are not walking you are not playing GOLF...certainly not the GAME he is familiar with.  Its a  matter of opinion whether reducing some of the physical aspects of GOLF changes the GAME...I don't necessarily disagree with you...

Personally, having recently aerified 22 greens...a long slow walk except for the travel between greens when the walk is much faster..etc...I am feeling that walking is over rated as an activity.   

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle it seems to me that Melvyn did say that GOLF is a walking game and if you are not walking you are not playing GOLF...certainly not the GAME he is familiar with.  Its a  matter of opinion whether reducing some of the physical aspects of GOLF changes the GAME...I don't necessarily disagree with you...

Personally, having recently aerified 22 greens...a long slow walk except for the travel between greens when the walk is much faster..etc...I am feeling that walking is over rated as an activity.   

And backwards too... kills your calves. I know. I've done it in July in Florida in a housing course. 

[Garland Bayley]

Craig,

Don't know if you had seen it before, but the USGA has labeled playing while using a cart as cartball, adamantly maintaining it was not golf. So it would seem you have been playing a game following the golf rules, but the rule making body doesn't consider it golf. I freely admit that I play cartball from time to time. Sometimes it is just the expedient thing to do. And, I do not violate any of the rules of golf in doing so as a I am sure you don't either.

[A.G._Crockett]

Now, on the flip side, there are clearly great courses in existence that would never have been conceived on those sites without an emphasis on cart play.  Take one of my favourite architects Mike Strantz as an example.  I can think of three of his courses (Tot Hill Farm, Royal New Kent and Stonehouse) that would never have been built if it wasn't for carts.  The layouts are just not practical for an emphasis on walking. Tobacco Road may be a fourth, though I remember walking that without too much stress.  On balance, I expect we are more grateful for these and other similar courses being in existence thanks to there being carts to use.  Just let us walk if we want to.

Tobacco Road is incredibly walkable. I've never really understood this criticism.

I'd love to take a crack at walking Tot Hill Farm. I think it would be easier than many suppose. I played it in a cold, pouring rain back in March. The cart was.... useful.

Tot Hill is much more walkable that Tobacco Road.  I have walked Tot Hill; I don't have much interest in Tobacco Road.

That wasn't thunder to those of you in Polk County, FL - that was the sound of my jaw hitting the floor.

Kyle,
I meant to write that I didn't have much interest in WALKING Tobacco Road; I truly love the golf course.  But it is a much tougher walk than Tot Hill IMO; hope that clarifies.
A.G.

[Sean_A]

No matter what folks think of MM's style, his points are crucially salient to golf architecture.  Lets face it, the cart has arguably been the single most important factor in changing architecture these past 40 years.  This tool has allowed for all sorts of stuff to be built which relies on the cart and predictably, the cart is now seen as essential revenue for both private and public courses.  This in essence gives the green light to push tees further and further away from greens.  Hell, we even have guys saying Tobacco Road (which by any measure would have been deemed a terrible walk in the heyday of good design) is very walkable.  That is a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one.  The entire concept of walking is predicated on short green to tee walks.  It doesn't mean much to say a course is walkable - the test is it an enjoyable walk.  For most, The Road would fail this test.  Furthermore, how many greatly hailed new courses which are meant to be good walks are nowhere near as pleasurable as classic era courses?  This could indeed be down to the modern concept of architecture influenced by cart use changing our perception of what is a good, reasonable, or terrible walk.  All of this is VERY clear to me when I go back to the States to play newer courses.  In general there is no comparison to wlaking classic era courses.  The question becomes, is the direction architecture and thus the game should be heading? 

Ciao 

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