[Robin_Hiseman]

Ignore, I was editing a typo and pressed the wrong button.

[PCCraig]

Melvyn,

Augusta National actively promotes carts over caddies and walking. You should write them a letter and tell them what you think of their policy.

[Brent Hutto]

I try not to get too worked up over what other people do with their golf course. Even if deep down I think it is stupid.

But for me a course that doesn't let me walk and play might as well be a course that's NLE. I'm not talking about a quick round with rented clubs while on vacation or spending the afternoon before a wedding out carting around with a bunch of half-lit guys. But golf as an ongoing activity for me is by definition a walking activity. Hell, the only reason I set foot on a golf course for the first time (at age 33) was in search of a way to get some exercise that was also reasonably fun and mentally engaging.

Now if we're talking about joining a club, it's pretty simple. Since I always walk when I play I'm obviously not going to join a club that won't allow me to play. Whether it's all the time or just in the mornings or just Saturday mornings, whatever. I'll be darned if I'm becoming part of an organization that doesn't really want someone like me as a member. All the time, not just afternoons. I hope I'm never so hard up as to join a club that things my basic way of playing the game is "cheap" or ignorant or somehow polluting their high standards.

And with very rare exceptions I have enjoyed rounds with caddies less than I would without the caddies. Sorry to put it bluntly but it's true. There's the guys we had a Cypress Point who were just awesome and added greatly to the experience. There was the guy at Kiawah who kept me and my grip (almost) dry and comfortable on a miserable winter day of driving rain. And Mike down at Sage Valley somehow managed to help me manufacture a golf game for myself on a day that started out looking like I'd never picked up a club before. That's the short list. Any of those guys were worth twice whatever they were paid. Every other caddie has been at least slightly a net negative.

So we're back to the plain truth. For me. Golf is a game of me walking the course with my own clubs. Hopefully with one or two or three companions but solo rounds are cool, too. It loses something when it gets away from that fundamental nature. For me.

[Jud_T]

I want to adjourn to a retirement community where one must take one's cart to the fitness center...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I read this wrong. I would say 80% of American private clubs want you to ride primarily for revenue reasons. It is a big deal when clubs do promote walking which is what I thought this thread is about. Oakbourne Cc in Lafayette La is one. Most of the time I have been in champions riding was the dominate means to get around the course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

"You should write them a letter and tell them what you think of their policy."

Why? and  not you

[PCCraig]

Pat

"You should write them a letter and tell them what you think of their policy."

Why? and  not you

Because, unlike you, I don't stick my nose in private affairs of clubs nor do I question others' free will.

[Dan Boerger]

What the social utopians don't seem to take into the equation is that there is a significant demand for carts from golfers in these United States. Period. Any discussion of reducing both incremental and long term costs by getting rid of carts has to also factor in estimated loss of play and revenue due to carts NOT being made available.

The vast majority of private clubs in these United States are not "knocking it out of the park", and would be committing financial "hari-kari" were they somehow "enlightened" and demanded that all but their medially eligible members walk at all times.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

I have never interfered in any club be it here, there or anywhere. I have passed on information and details relating to past historical events and relayed general information as and when it cames available relating to that said club.

In a free society I thought it was encouraged to communicate and pass on thoughts and suggestions as and when perhaps possible. If you do not use your freedoms there could always be the possibilities that some may consider them to be irrelevant so decide to corrupt the system. Watergate was exposed by those who value their freedom of speech and they certainly did busy themselves with other people’s business.

You and Michael Duggar have given me an idea regards Private Clubs. I wonder when I go to America if they will offer me the courtesy of a meeting then showing me their course(s) and club history.  Knowing very little about your Private Clubs it would be a very interesting and I believe rewarding experience.

Knowledge and the free passing of general information should, I believe be encouraged unless lives depend on said information, as we are discussing matters re golf I see not life threatening issues, so I feel free to pass on my thoughts. You do not have to read them and you certainly do not have to respond. Perhaps one day you will do so, to actually further a discussion rather than make statements relating to the writer. But I suppose just like life it’s a learning curve and you have not yet quite grasped the idea of a Discussion Group.

Dan

Are you saying that it’s a culture thing, so no chance of change,  that people are set in their ways. If this is the case why has your CIA for generations tried to destabilize other cultures into their way of thinking? If they try to do it then your Governments believes that these people can be persuaded to change, so if that’s the case where is your point.

OK so that a daft scenario but you may take my point. The current generation say in America have grown up with the cart, it’s been there since the late 1940’s/early 1950’s, it generates revenue while spending it on cart and course maintenance plus fuel costs, yet it still generates revenue. That I understand, but from my understanding many players under 50 years of age have known mainly the cart, but has anyone from the Pro Shop or Club taken out groups to teach others the traditions and content of the game. Including the aspect that golf is a walking and thinking game. Not to mention the plus side, the fun of walking connected to understanding the GCA, of testing the players not to use distance aids but rely upon one’s God given talents. The pleasure and thrill of choosing the correct club from letting one’s eyes judge distance, then the satisfaction in getting close to the target. Little victories but accomplished by oneself from deep within and not from an electron box either with GPS or wheels.

Show people an alternative, an alternative that makes one more involved with a feel good factor WILL change attitudes, perhaps not overnight or in mass numbers but enough for others, apart from the least mobile (who need carts just to get around) to take an interest. Let’s not forget many on here are mainly walkers. Or have you written of Mankind or just America?

Melvyn

[C. Squier]

Melvyn, how many times do you need to type a version of "you just don't get it" until you realize that perhaps it's you that isn't fully grasping what people are saying?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

Am I not now allowed to answer questions directed at me, wow you guys have missed the meaning of freedom of speech - tell me will force now be used upon me until I willing change my mind. Freedoms great, pity you have to share it with the likes of me.

I accept that I do not grasp cartball but I do grasp golf, two different games. Play whatever pulls your Willie
You may be able to grasp that but I certainly would not like too.

Have a nice evening

Melvyn

PS To answer your question, how about ‘until Hell freezers over’ or The R&A comes to their senses. Think Hell will freeze over first.

[Lawrence Largent]

The Olde Farm promotes riding over walking.  I'm not sure if you can even walk anytime.  When the club first opened they allowed walking and carrying you're own bag in the afternoons.  One day two gentlemen was walking down the 2nd hole carrying they're bags.  The owner playing the 9th saw them and called into the clubhouse and said he didn't like the look of it and said they wouldn't be anymore of that allowed.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Melvyn,

Some clubs stateside insist you ride! They are clubs to avoid!

Otherwise, there are many, many clubs that try to provide a decent caddy program and without customers the caddies would never show up. I caddied as a teenager and, this past February, when a bunch of us GCA discussion group folk from the New Jersey/Pennsylvania area got together I found out over beers that almost everyone had caddied in our youth.

My club, Springdale, in Princeton, NJ does not have a caddy program. The culture is primarily walking and either carrying ones own bag or pulling a "trolley" or push cart. Electric carts are available and used by some members but by far the prevailing culture is a walking one.

I'm not sure why this exists as it is out of step with the predominant American Culture. Yet it does and it is strong. Having grown up a walker I can't really enjoy the game unless I am walking. It's just not the same game to me playing out of a cart.

Yet, New Jersey has a climate that is walkable pretty much year round as does the British Isles. If I were in the Southeastern US I would find walking difficult to maintain during the Summer months given the heat and humidity. Also I am blessed with a golf course that has mild elevation changes. I see many golf courses laid over land that a sherpa would find unbearable.

Bottom line, walking  is a function of club culture, climate and topography in my opinion.

[Mike Sweeney]

Show people an alternative, an alternative that makes one more involved with a feel good factor WILL change attitudes, perhaps not overnight or in mass numbers but enough for others, apart from the least mobile (who need carts just to get around) to take an interest. Let’s not forget many on here are mainly walkers. Or have you written of Mankind or just America?

Mel,

This "showing people an alternative" cuts both ways:

[John Kavanaugh]

The Olde Farm promotes riding over walking.  I'm not sure if you can even walk anytime.  When the club first opened they allowed walking and carrying you're own bag in the afternoons.  One day two gentlemen was walking down the 2nd hole carrying they're bags.  The owner playing the 9th saw them and called into the clubhouse and said he didn't like the look of it and said they wouldn't be anymore of that allowed.

Where is Olde Farm, sounds like Kentucky.

[Sven Nilsen]

Clint

Am I not now allowed to answer questions directed at me, wow you guys have missed the meaning of freedom of speech.

And right here is where you've lost me Mel.  Clint told you to quit beating a dead horse, he didn't lock you up for espousing viewpoints detrimental to the sovereign state.  The funny thing about pulling out the freedom of speech card, it works both ways.

[Brian Hilko]

The current club I work for does promote walking. The course is an easy walk. Our rules are if caddies our available and you can walk you have to take them. Also if caddies are not available you can carry or pull free of charge. The club I work is old school but times are changing. A couple of years ago we changed the rules that you can ride with guests if you want. I can think of multiple times I have had members pull me aside and tell me they do not pay all this money to be a member to have to walk. It is a shame but that is the way it is. Most people just want to relax. Relax to them is sit in cart and swat a ball around for four hours. I do not love carts but they are very important to a golf operation. They ARE a huge revenue producer. You can argue wear and tear on a course and cart attendant fees but if carts are priced right they are a big moneymaker. Our club has virtually no cart paths so after big rains we shut down carts. We see over 40 percent less play on weekends with no carts and over 50 percent on weekdays with no carts. This means less guests which is also a big revenue channel. We need carts to survive.

I also have other reasons why carts are here to stay. My brother is an avid runner. Works out every day. He HATES to walk a golf course. Considers it a bad experience if he has to walk, even with a caddie. To him golf is an escape from work. He just wants to relax in a cart and hit the ball a few times. He could care less about 98 percent of the things we talk about on this site but he loves golf just as much as we do. Does that make him a criminal for riding? I also want to mention that I love playing great courses more than anything but second on that list is riding a cart around the local muni with 3 off my friends who want to drink beer and relax. There is a place in the game for riding and walking. I understand the hate towards carts but it's a losing battle. We need to grow the game and carts are part of that. We are the minority here at GCA. The pure walking only course such as bandon, whistling, dunes club, and erin hills are niche markets. The cart is here to stay.

p.s.  I hate to start another argument but Erin Hills is the worst walking course I have ever played. We had to take a 15 min sitting break on the 15th tee. Thank God we were the only ones out there.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I walked Erin Hills and I'm as mobile as Jabba the Hut sporting a Princess Layla boner, come on man.

[Brian Hilko]

I understand that it is walkable but play from the back tees. It is one of the worst routed and tough walks from there. I had no urge for a second 18. I spent 8 days playing 36 days at Bandon and even on trails i never felt as tired as I did on that 15th tee. The group all felt the same. 54 holes walking at Lawsonia felt like a cake walk compared to 18 at Erin. Worst routed walking course I have ever played.

[John Kavanaugh]

I understand that it is walkable but play from the back tees. It is one of the worst routed and tough walks from there. I had no urge for a second 18. I spent 8 days playing 36 days at Bandon and even on trails i never felt as tired as I did on that 15th tee. The group all felt the same. 54 holes walking at Lawsonia felt like a cake walk compared to 18 at Erin. Worst routed walking course I have ever played.

How long have you been a rater for Golfwee?

[William_G]

I thought golf was all about driving the buggy/cart!

[Brian Hilko]

 Hahaha. I agree I am tough on that place but it really left a bad taste in mouth.  As far as the topic goes majority of courses should allow every golfer the option to walk or ride. Whats wrong with making everyone happy.

[John Kavanaugh]

Brian,

I guess that means you are a Golfweek Rater. Let the feud go, it's embarrassing.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike, William and Sven

There is nothing wrong with a cart, but once you use it to play golf you change the basic dynamics of the game. In fact you create a new variation of the game. The very acts of riding instead of walking removes the player from the game of golf into whatever you call your new sport ‘Cartball’ or are you such a lazy sod that you can’t commit let alone  persevere with a game called golf. It’s certainly is not golf because you have removed 50% of the structure, its heart and essence to say nothing of the pleasure of the game by not walking.

Do play whatever you want but don’t be so hypocritical but still trying to cling to the name golf. The very act of riding has kill that game you want to call golf dead from the moment you started the cart on the 1st Tee. Why can many of you able body players just admit that, or are you ashamed that you use a cart because you just can’t hack playing the real game, being just too much for your testosterone levels. As for hills they are far more pleasurable by walking them than riding.

Use a cart, that’s your choice, I just ask that you are brave enough to admit that you are not playing GOLF. As for clubs that allow only riding, I would love to challenge their right to advertise themselves as a Golf Club. How can you call it Golf if you refuse the player the right to walk which is such a major part of the game of golf?

Will carts disappear, no I expect not but we should keep challenge both clubs and players that they cannot call the riding game golf. It is a total misrepresentation of what actually happens at these clubs and deliberately sets out to con the golfer by clear misrepresentation – perhaps a fraud by any other name.

Clearly many ride, so why not be man enough and say when I ride I play Cartball, when I walk I play Golf, The Open and other majors are about GOLF, that walking game,  but carts are indeed  used but for the film crew, organisers and maintenance guys, but not for playing golf.

I walk when I play golf as I want to play GOLF. Any club banning walking should under the trades description be forced to remove the word Golf Club from their name. Yet the worst part of this fiasco is that it’s the player who is actually conning him/herself into believing that they are still playing golf if they ride. Yet I suppose it’s down to the clubs and club owners who ban walking feeling that their game is best served by riding, which translated into plain English means come on you suckers I have found a better way to screw you out of more money in the process of making certain that you do not distress or keep fit while playing cartball. But if your game is Cartball, enjoy yourself and whatever time you have left.

Melvyn

[Craig Sweet]

50 years of hitting a ball with a stick and Melvyn tells me I am not playing GOLF because I ride around the course in a cart sometimes.  Its funny, but not once has my CART hit the ball, not once has it told me the distance I needed, not once has it blinded me to the strategy of play and the architects intent.

I for one am pretty sick and tired of Melvyn constantly claiming that he knows better than I what GOLF is because he is a decendent of Old Tom Morris and happens to live on the other side of the pond.

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