[Mike Nuzzo]

Don't sell yourself short, Jay. You're a tremendous slouch.
I think Michael is comparing me to Phish (music & business) after their first EP and LP, not today's Phish.

Michael
Thank you
I'll go with Ray LaMontagne, or hope to think I can get that good with more practice.

[Jay Flemma]

Uh...Phish never released an EP.  nice to see you too Mike.  Always a pleasure

And speaking of Foo Fighters, I'll be seeing them Monday at Brendan Byrne.   ***Makes Rock hands***

[John Shimp]

David harshbarger is on it.  I don't get most of jay's analogies but its a neat thread idea.

How about this game of name matching? Rationale?
 
Architects:  Ross, Mackenzie, dye, rtj, Fazio, cbm/raynor, doak
Music:          beattles, stones, Hendrix, Neil young, talking heads, pearl jam, the dead

[Tim Pitner]

Obviously, in this exercise, a lot depends on what sort of music you prefer. 

C&C : Foo Fighters, I don't see it, but I've never gotten into Foo Fighters.  Doak : Pearl Jam, I'd have to hope that Doak's legacy will be more long-lasting than Pearl Jam's.  They're not even regarded as the best grunge band and grunge had a pretty short shelf life (at least in my world).

I've made this comparison before, but I think it's pretty apt--Doak reminds me some of Jeff Tweedy of Wilco.  Both are extremely talented, very steeped in their craft, seem to encourage innovation and collaboration among their band, but know exactly what they want and sometimes come off as egotistical and prickly. 

[Jud_T]

Tim,

Not sure Wilco works either.  A)-Tweedy stopped rocking live after he sobered up and B)-He has changed sidemen more often than Cher during a Vegas revue and has to a large degree surrounded himself with studio musicians to do his bidding, although he still writes great songs.  So unless TD is about to check into Betty Ford, fire up the Cad Machine and take it on the road with a bunch of hired guns I'd say we keep looking....

[Tim Pitner]

Jud,

I'd have to disagree that Wilco doesn't still rock live--in fact, I'd say they're one band that you really need to see live because their songs sound so much different (generally, rock more) when played live.  Nels Cline and Glenn Kotche are not merely studio musicians. 

These comparisons are tough--there are a lot more musicians out there than course architects. 

[Tim Pitner]

I just read Jay's article--not much rings true to me, but we have some different tastes. 

If minimalism is golf's punk rock, how is Doak equivalent to Phish?  By the way, I understand the comparison of minimalism to punk, but is roots music a better analogy? 

I view Doak as more of a purist in his dedication to minimalist principles.  Phish don't seem like purists at all.  Their skill, like the Grateful Dead's, seems to be synthesizing different types of music.  These two styles seem diametrically opposed to me. 

Rolling Stones fans can't name a song off of Exile on Main Street?  Really? 

[Jud_T]

Jud,

I'd have to disagree that Wilco doesn't still rock live--in fact, I'd say they're one band that you really need to see live because their songs sound so much different (generally, rock more) when played live.  Nels Cline and Glenn Kotche are not merely studio musicians. 

Tim,

I get the whole Nels Cline thing.  Hell I almost bought his old custom guitar preamp.  He's one of those rediculously studied musicians who can play any note in the book.  Rock is about cutting loose and taking chances,  not about whether you can faithfully reproduce the hardest guitar chord in the world night after night.  I get the impression there's a lot more give and take in a Doak band than in the current Wilco lineup...

[michael damico]

my sentiments exactly Tim...as a big fan of Zappa, Phish and Doak, I see no correlation.

Phish is more of the style of Zappa moreso than the GD because of their 'synthesizing'/fusing of multiple influences. The Dead had what? 2 influences (Jazz and it's improvisation and Blues - and I guess it's capabilities of improv)

the Wilco point...yes, theyre awesome live. You forget to mention that Phish (and the Dead for that matter) thrive on live performances. Hell, 2 guys still play those same songs they played 30 years ago, in a different band, Furthur, and still make a living off of touring. But Jud, that's the ongoing argument of most rock bands as they mature...oh, well they're not as good sober...personally, I think that's crap. And again, we can bring it back to Phish with their front man; they are destroying everything right now, the best they've played in over a decade and why? well, the front man 'sobered up' and found a new reason for driving his passion. Of which, we really don't have any designers who've gone off the deep end to really come back...or do we?

John...who would be the TH?

[Jud_T]

The Dead had what? 2 influences (Jazz and it's improvisation and Blues - and I guess it's capabilities of improv)

?  How about rock, folk, bluegrass, reggae, country, psychedelia, and space rock?

[Jay Flemma]

I just read Jay's article--not much rings true to me, but we have some different tastes.  

If minimalism is golf's punk rock, how is Doak equivalent to Phish?  By the way, I understand the comparison of minimalism to punk, but is roots music a better analogy?  

I view Doak as more of a purist in his dedication to minimalist principles.  Phish don't seem like purists at all.  Their skill, like the Grateful Dead's, seems to be synthesizing different types of music.  These two styles seem diametrically opposed to me.  

Rolling Stones fans can't name a song off of Exile on Main Street?  Really?  

It's not matching the music - it's about matching where they fit in the social and cultural zeitgeist.  That's what you're not getting.  You have to think about how people react to what they did - not who they were.  Of course punk is minimalism - it's the whole DIY and  no special effects ethos.  Of course Doak is Phish - he conquered the world and he did it his way - taking the establishment to task and putting them over his knee every time, until he became the new establishment and at the vanguard of the new and better way things are done, yet he still never lost his message or originality. (Well Phish 2.0 did, but that was when Trey was in his drug phase...now that he's clean, Phish 3/0 is as good as '95.  Mike is right about that.  They are destroying everything.   Merriweather Post and Denver were #$%$%ing outrageous!

And read it more carefully, Tim - ask your friends - "Do they Like the Rolling Stones?" Not **hardcore** Stones fans. (Even with hardcore Stones fans the ratio may be 50/50)  The general casual fan is no where near as familiar with Exile as they are Hot Rocks, Sticky Fingers, LSTNT, Statanic Majesty's Service, or other albums.  The point is everybody, but not evrybody knows what the rock cogniscenti all agree is their greatest ***musical*** contribution.

When you and I get together at a GCA event, we'll conduct the experiment, and I guarantee you'll owe me gobs of liquid cash at $5 a pop asking random people those two questions:  "Do you like the Stones?  Yes? Then  name one song off Exile"  You'll be buying me steak dinners.  It's a sure bar bet winner.

[Tim Pitner]

Jay,

I think you wildly overrate Phish, which is why I can't agree with the comparison to Doak.  If minimalism is punk, then Doak has to be The Clash--for a time, the only band that mattered.  Luckily, Doak's longevity has already greatly exceeded The Clash's (although you could also count Joe Strummer's very good solo stuff and, to a lesser degree, Mick Jones' BAD). 

You may be right about Exile, but I would hope people could at least get Tumbling Dice.  Hear that GCAers--TUMBLING DICE is a song on Exile on Main Street.

[Jay Flemma]

Phish's contribution and legacy are tough to overstate.

Tumbling dice was the single off exile when it was released.  If anyone really likes the Stones, go rent or buy "Stones in Exile" - the story of the making of Exile - how they actually were English tax exiles and had to record the album on the basement of Keith's mansion Nellcote.  There are great alternate versions of "Loving Cup" and Shine a Light."

There you are GCAers - two others are "Shine a Light" and "Loving Cup."

The guy who won the trivia contest - that took a ridiculously long time to find a winner - picked "Happy."

[Tim Pitner]

Jay,

I realize Phish has a very loyal following and I actually like some Phish songs.  But, like many jam bands including The Grateful Dead, their genre-crossing/synthesizing sometimes becomes a rather unsatisfying mish-mash.  I know it's difficult for diehard fans to come to terms with this, but I'm not alone in this thinking.  One of my most rock musically literate friends, less charitable than me, affirmatively despises Phish for this very reason--they don't really take a stand musically, their music is somewhat lazy and unfocused.  It's amorphous goo.  True believers probably interpret this as Phish's original contribution, but there is at least a strong dissenting view. 

At least we can agree on the quality of the music on Exile.

[Jud_T]

There's one thing the jam bands have in common with a Doak.  You've got to experience them live and in the, ahem, right frame of mind to really get it.  And as they always said about the minimalist movement  "You're either on the bus or off it".  Although frankly as an old-school Deadhead and Zappaphile who was musically jaded when most of you were wondering why the sheets were wet when you woke up suddenly in the middle of the night, I'm offended that Phish is erroneously lumped in with them.  Trey can play, but that's about where the similarity ends IMHO...

[michael damico]

There's one thing the jam bands have in common with a Doak.  You've got to experience them live and in the, ahem, right frame of mind to really get it.  And as they always said about the minimalist movement  "You're either on the bus or off it".  Although frankly as an old-school Deadhead and Zappaphile who was musically jaded when most of you were wondering why the sheets were wet when you woke up suddenly in the middle of the night, I'm offended that Phish is erroneously lumped in with them.  Trey can play, but that's about where the similarity ends IMHO...

I agree, they're not anything the same. They're lumped in with each because of the directly noticeable influence that both the GD and Zappa as well as Phish's own admission to those being two of their strongest influences.

Zappa hated the GD and their 'movement', drugs and that whole scene, yet the two are lumped together with say, Hendrix or Floyd.

I see more of a similarity of Phish with Zappa seeing as though they both didn't stick to a given influence: I believe that's what allows for a person to not get tired of the same old and directly contributes to longevity in the business.

But we digress...who is who in our discussion?

[Kyle Harris]

Since when don't the so-called minimalists (ugh) use any sort of special effects or tricks?

Jay, I think you need to research more about the process of both making music (your Genesis comments are laughable and idiotic, for example) and building golf courses before attempting to make sense of these comparisons.

[Dave Falkner]

Jud

I find myself agreeing with many of your posts in this thread

I believe that the huge difference between the GD and Phish is the lyrics   

Hunter wrote songs with soul whereas Phish (and Zappa for that matter) sing gobblygook  to the point of being annoying

again I posit that CBM is the GD  taking various influences and making them their own in a way that no one has come even close t

[Jay Flemma]

Since when don't the so-called minimalists (ugh) use any sort of special effects or tricks?

Jay, I think you need to research more about the process of both making music (your Genesis comments are laughable and idiotic, for example) and building golf courses before attempting to make sense of these comparisons.

Please Kyle, I was listening to Genesis since close to before you were born.  I remember the release of both Seconds Out and, a few years  afterwards, the first radio single "Follow You Follow me" which ws the beginning of the end of the prog songwriting and the move to pop. You can't say with a straight face that anything Genesis wrote after that was anywhere near as interesting as what they wrote before.  Why do you think it's called Old Genesis and New Genesis

Besides I thought all you hardcore Genesis fans were supposed to hate "New Genesis"

[Kalen Braley]

I want to know which architect is best represented/compared to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir!! 

[Kyle Harris]

Since when don't the so-called minimalists (ugh) use any sort of special effects or tricks?

Jay, I think you need to research more about the process of both making music (your Genesis comments are laughable and idiotic, for example) and building golf courses before attempting to make sense of these comparisons.

Please Kyle, I was listening to Genesis since close to before you were born.  I remember the release of both Seconds Out and, a few years  afterwards, the first radio single "Follow You Follow me" which ws the beginning of the end of the prog songwriting and the move to pop. You can't say with a straight face that anything Genesis wrote after that was anywhere near as interesting as what they wrote before.  Why do you think it's called Old Genesis and New Genesis

Besides I thought all you hardcore Genesis fans were supposed to hate "New Genesis"

It was the Phil Collins hate fest you spewed that is idiotic. The band began writing as a group again with Duke and honed the sound with Abacab and the Mama album. Your favorite track, "Illegal Alien" is actually a Tony Banks number that came out of a jam - pick up the Video Box Set that was released a few years ago and check out all the documentary footage. Same with "Mama" and "Home By The Sea" and "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" and "Hold On My Heart" and well, you get the point. Prog Bands were Prog because the were progressive and embraced new sounds and technologies. The calibre of songcraft did not diminish with the introduction of new sounds, or would you rather the bands have stuck with the ARP ProSoloist, Mellotron and Farfisa Organ from 1973? How is patching the Prophet 5 through the MIDI input of the Linn Drum Machine to get the pulsating rhythm of Mama (a drum track programmed by Rutherford, by the way) NOT progressive?!

It's the ignorance of the above that really limits this idea. You have no idea, nor really attempt to know the creative process on both ends, which makes the comparisons fall really short. It seems you just took your favorite bands and compared them to your favorite architects, etc - which is fine and dandy, just not terribly insightful.

Oddly, there is probably some substance to this idea. Sticking with the Genesis comparison (a songwriting collective where individual ideas are brought to the table and melded together) or the Yes comparison (A rather strong dictatorship of Jon Anderson and eventually R*ck W*keman) one could probably make some very good comparisons to the creative process of architects in the field.

P.S. The first radio single was actually "I Know What I Like" from Selling England By The Pound.

P.P.S. Save the fallacy of the argument from experience for Mucci.

[Sven Nilsen]

Since when don't the so-called minimalists (ugh) use any sort of special effects or tricks?

Jay, I think you need to research more about the process of both making music (your Genesis comments are laughable and idiotic, for example) and building golf courses before attempting to make sense of these comparisons.

Please Kyle, I was listening to Genesis since close to before you were born.  I remember the release of both Seconds Out and, a few years  afterwards, the first radio single "Follow You Follow me" which ws the beginning of the end of the prog songwriting and the move to pop. You can't say with a straight face that anything Genesis wrote after that was anywhere near as interesting as what they wrote before.  Why do you think it's called Old Genesis and New Genesis

Besides I thought all you hardcore Genesis fans were supposed to hate "New Genesis"

It was the Phil Collins hate fest you spewed that is idiotic. The band began writing as a group again with Duke and honed the sound with Abacab and the Mama album. Your favorite track, "Illegal Alien" is actually a Tony Banks number that came out of a jam - pick up the Video Box Set that was released a few years ago and check out all the documentary footage. Same with "Mama" and "Home By The Sea" and "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" and "Hold On My Heart" and well, you get the point. Prog Bands were Prog because the were progressive and embraced new sounds and technologies. The calibre of songcraft did not diminish with the introduction of new sounds, or would you rather the bands have stuck with the ARP ProSoloist, Mellotron and Farfisa Organ from 1973? How is patching the Prophet 5 through the MIDI input of the Linn Drum Machine to get the pulsating rhythm of Mama (a drum track programmed by Rutherford, by the way) NOT progressive?!

It's the ignorance of the above that really limits this idea. You have no idea, nor really attempt to know the creative process on both ends, which makes the comparisons fall really short. It seems you just took your favorite bands and compared them to your favorite architects, etc - which is fine and dandy, just not terribly insightful.

Oddly, there is probably some substance to this idea. Sticking with the Genesis comparison (a songwriting collective where individual ideas are brought to the table and melded together) or the Yes comparison (A rather strong dictatorship of Jon Anderson and eventually R*ck W*keman) one could probably make some very good comparisons to the creative process of architects in the field.

P.S. The first radio single was actually "I Know What I Like" from Selling England By The Pound.

P.P.S. Save the fallacy of the argument from experience for Mucci.

Anyone else having a flashback to the Huey Lewis scene from American Psycho?

[David Kelly]

Anyone else having a flashback to the Huey Lewis scene from American Psycho?

Good one. Or how about Homer Simpson's ode to Grand Funk Railroad, " "The wild, shirtless lyrics of Mark Farner! The bone-rattling bass of Mel Schacher! The competent drum work of Don Brewer!"

[Sven Nilsen]

Oh, good one David.  I'll give it a go.  

Grand Funk Railroad reminds me of railroad tracks which sometimes lead to a railroad resort which has to be The Greenbrier.  Therefore, GFR is CBM.  QED.

[Kyle Harris]

Oh, good one David.  I'll give it a go.  

Grand Funk Railroad reminds me of railroad tracks which sometimes lead to a railroad resort which has to be The Greenbrier.  Therefore, GFR is CBM.  QED.

You could focus on the point I made about the creative process.

QED? Richard Feynman or quod erat demonstratum. See... I can do that too. 

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