[Buck Wolter]

Back to the original question -- isn't  it as easy as asking if they're allowed and if they club says no that they should let you know when they change their mind?

I started using a sun mountain cart this year and don't buy the pushing down causing damage. I'm fairly tall and even with the handle at it's highest position I push it parallel to the ground, pushing 'up' would take a much bigger effort.  I've never seen push cart damage and would guess 50% of players use them at my home course. I have left the brake 'locked' on occasion but even that 3 ft doesn't seem to hurt anything.

[Sean_A]

Buck

I too question the idea of 3 wheelers causing more damage than 2 wheelers.  In any case, golfers must get around the course and if they aren't carrying, then we must accept some wear and tear on courses due to transporting the golfer and clubs. I think we must also lower expections for conditioning around greens...there should and will be some damage to the turf....the design should accomodate this fact. This is one area where people forget that heavy bunkering reduces traffic options.  When courses are not designed for higher cappers part of the problem is course flow.  Because of lack of options, the damage caused by trolleys and carts is more acute, so clubs make golfers park their carts and trolleys away from the green (and their ball!)....thus slowing down play. The form and function of course design is intertwined in ways golfers don't notice.  Sure, we can say if cart riders were sensible they wouldn't cause so much damage, but we all know golfers aren't sensible because many will pay $300 for a game     So, now we have dreaded cart paths....its all part of modern golf concepts of pristine conditions, championship difficulty and laziness...the three main tenets of modern golf 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill,

if you really believe that then why not provide the scientific reports that back it up. Just out of interest who do you think would have done such research?


Sean,

I too accept that golfers need to get round the course and that if golfers need to use trollies then there will be some more wear and tear. I would however suggest the majority of people using trollies are capable of carrying and encouraging these players to carry would be a big move towards speeding the game up to where it used to be.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

I [size=78%]appreciate that the thread was raised about private US clubs, where perhaps caddies may be more readily available, but the subject seems to have drifted a little from this aspect.[/size]



So, a couple of general points -


Are we just discussing fit strong men here? What about ladies and seniors of both genders as these folk usually have less strength and thus less ability to carry.



Whilst it is probably true that many folk who use either a powered or push/pull trolley could carry a bag, could they carry for 18-holes 14 clubs, a few balls, waterproofs and an umbrella as well? I doubt all could. [size=78%]In addition, whether they could carry for all 18-holes and still play with the same frequency, ie number of rounds per week, as when using some kind of trolley is doubtful.[/size]


Greenkeepers I've discussed this matter with have all said it's the players feet not the trolley wheels, that cause most the wear and tear and winter muddiness.

Less play because folk can't carry is a potential outcome if folk arn't allowed trolleys, can't carry and no other alternative, like caddies or buggies are available ......... and less play ultimately means less revenue.


Quite a few UK courses are using rubber mesh imbedded into paths in busy areas like tee-to-fairway routes. These seem to provide grip, reduce muddiness and the grass grows through the mesh and can thus be cut with the usual mowers.


Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

Just for the record I am not against trollies nor do I think they add much to the wear and tear on a course especially through the summer.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas,
Just for the record I am not against trollies nor do I think they add much to the wear and tear on a course especially through the summer.
Jon

[size=78%]No worries Jon, I wasn't having a go. [/size]
Atb

[Buck Wolter]

Sean,

I too accept that golfers need to get round the course and that if golfers need to use trollies then there will be some more wear and tear. I would however suggest the majority of people using trollies are capable of carrying and encouraging these players to carry would be a big move towards speeding the game up to where it used to be.


Jon

Jon-
How does carrying a bag speed up the game versus using a push-cart? I don't see any difference except that I don't slow down my pace the last 4 holes when I use my push cart and I invariably do when I carry. I also took several shots off my score which has to speed things up.

[Carl Johnson]

I [size=78%]appreciate that the thread was raised about private US clubs, where perhaps caddies may be more readily available, but the subject seems to have drifted a little from this aspect.[/size]



So, a couple of general points - This is such a fun discussion, I'll chime in again.


Are we just discussing fit strong men here? What about ladies and seniors of both genders as these folk usually have less strength and thus less ability to carry.

I'm 73 years old and I prefer using a Kangaroo motorcaddy to riding in a cart.  I believe that from a cardiovascular stand point I'm more fit than the average person, not just the average 73-year-old.  15 to 20 years ago I carried.  Then I switched to pull cart, then a push cart, and three years ago to the Kangaroo.  On my hilly course, even the push cart wasn't enough help.  It wasn't the endurance aspect, but rather the muscular-skeletal issues that were getting me down.  All that having been said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the youngest, most fit, strongest buck using a push cart if he desires, or even using a caddie if one is available.  I suppose if my club banned motorcaddies I'd ride (we don't have caddies, and I'm not fond of them anyway), but not happily.  I don't see the matter of club mobility as part of the game -- sorry, to those that do.

Whilst it is probably true that many folk who use either a powered or push/pull trolley could carry a bag, could they carry for 18-holes 14 clubs, a few balls, waterproofs and an umbrella as well? I doubt all could. [size=78%]In addition, whether they could carry for all 18-holes and still play with the same frequency, ie number of rounds per week, as when using some kind of trolley is doubtful.[/size]

See above.

Greenkeepers I've discussed this matter with have all said it's the players feet not the trolley wheels, that cause most the wear and tear and winter muddiness.

The whole thing about trolleys messing up the course is ridiculous.  The question is traffic pattern wear, regardless of foot or wheel.  Beyond that, has anyone mentioned the kind of turf?  We play on Bermuda grass and that stuff is really tough.  So, maybe it makes a little difference, depending on the kind of turf.  I just don't know, but I doubt it.

Less play because folk can't carry is a potential outcome if folk arn't allowed trolleys, can't carry and no other alternative, like caddies or buggies are available ......... and less play ultimately means less revenue.

Stated another way, it might mean less golf, and would that be "good for the game."

Quite a few UK courses are using rubber mesh imbedded into paths in busy areas like tee-to-fairway routes. These seem to provide grip, reduce muddiness and the grass grows through the mesh and can thus be cut with the usual mowers.

I have experienced this very practical solution in the UK, yet not in the USA, which is not to say it does not exist here.  I fear, however, that it would be derided as low class in the USA by the same folks the deride trolleys as low class.


Atb

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

if you really believe that then why not provide the scientific reports that back it up. Just out of interest who do you think would have done such research?

Well Jon, it was your original assertion that three wheeled push carts do more damage than two wheeled pull carts!   You sounded so positive I figured for sure there was research. 


I think it's simple physics, there will be less weight bearing on the wheels when there are three than two.  Therefore any ruts, etc, should be not as deep as if half the weight is concentrated on each wheel. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill,

the demand of scientific studies cuts both ways and the lack of such studies (as far as I am aware) to prove my suggestion certainly does not validate yours. You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage.

Buck,

I do not know in your case but carrying allows the golfer to progress in a more direct line. However, regardless of how you go round the course 3 to 3.5 should be possible for most 3 & 4balls.

Jon

[Carl Johnson]

Bill,

 . . . You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage. . . .

Jon

Jon, Here's some additional Newtonian physics analysis, backed by my own experience as a former pusher.  Think of the three wheel push trolley as a lever, with the back wheels being the fulcrum, the handle being one end of the lever, and the front wheel the other.  The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel.  From that I deduce that any supposed friction of the front wheel on the ground is neutralized.

You are quite welcome  , Carl

[Wayne_Kozun]

The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel.

I totally agree - when you push down on the handle you are raising the front wheel.  The only  way to put downward pressure on the front wheel is to lift up on the handle which is unlikely unless one uses an underhanded grip or the handle is above the shoulder level on the person pushing - which is unlikely.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill,

 . . . You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage. . . .

Jon

Jon, Here's some additional Newtonian physics analysis, backed by my own experience as a former pusher.  Think of the three wheel push trolley as a lever, with the back wheels being the fulcrum, the handle being one end of the lever, and the front wheel the other.  The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel.  From that I deduce that any supposed friction of the front wheel on the ground is neutralized.

You are quite welcome  , Carl

Thanks Carl,

I never realised the front wheel never actually contacted the ground. Makes you wonder what it is there for really and how that third wheel rack ends up in the dew. Do you think three wheeler users carry an extra wheel on a stick to add it in? That would make them a bit slow no?

I have already said I thought it would be minimal in effect.

Wayne,

is it really the only way to put downward pressure on the front wheel? Would not the weight of the clubs do that?

Jon

[Carl Johnson]

Bill,

 . . . You are correct that it is a case of simple physics in that when push you are causing the front wheel to be pushed down ergo more point pressure. Also the pushing action causes more friction when turning than a pulling action. It is the sheering action and not ground pressure that causes the most damage. . . .

Jon

Jon, Here's some additional Newtonian physics analysis, backed by my own experience as a former pusher.  Think of the three wheel push trolley as a lever, with the back wheels being the fulcrum, the handle being one end of the lever, and the front wheel the other.  The tendency when pushing the trolley is to push down a little on the handle, since your hands and arms are higher than the handle, thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheel.  From that I deduce that any supposed friction of the front wheel on the ground is neutralized.

You are quite welcome  , Carl

Thanks Carl,

I never realised the front wheel never actually contacted the ground. . . .  It does actually touch the ground some, just a little more lightly than you might think, although for big quick turns I tended to lift the front wheel off the ground entirely (by pushing down a little on the handle) and turn on two.


Wayne,

is it really the only way to put downward pressure on the front wheel? Would not the weight of the clubs do that?

Jon

[Wayne_Kozun]

Yes the weight of the bag will put downward pressure but that is going to be rather insignificant?

[Buck Wolter]

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2002/020918.pdf


http://www.3-men-in-a-bunker.co.uk/golf-products-and-reviews/hedgehog-golf-wheels-discount-voucher

[Carl Johnson]

Yes the weight of the bag will put downward pressure but that is going to be rather insignificant?

Of course, the entire purpose of the trolley is carry weight.  You could push around an empty trolley, I guess, and just carry your bag.  I think that would really be the best way to minimize damage to the course. 

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone used a Segway on a golf course?
Atb

[Carl Johnson]

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2002/020918.pdf

Reasonable article, yet doesn't cite data or consider different types of turf, though the references cited may be data-based.  I didn't try to look them up.  The general conclusion is that traffic patterns, particularly around the greens and tees, is the real problem,  as I (and others) suggested above.  Also, although three-wheelers (trolleys) are mentioned, the author does not really distinguish between two- and three-wheelers.

http://www.3-men-in-a-bunker.co.uk/golf-products-and-reviews/hedgehog-golf-wheels-discount-voucher

A wild looking product.  Not sure about the validity of the seller's claims.  Of course, the force, downward is the same, but the smaller points of contact with the ground means that pressure on those points will be much greater over the smaller area.

See:http://resources.yesican-science.ca/lpdd/genres/press1.html
See also:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force, particularly the section on quantum mechanics  ; or a simpler version, http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/Types-of-Forces
and yet again: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-surface-area-affects-the-force-of-friction.html

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Good story here:


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/new-pushcart-turns-reluctant-rider-back-into-walker




When Maryvale reopens, as it's a compact routing with tees near greens and no housing, I intend to resume walking. I've been a reluctant rider too long after suffering a bout of plantar fasciitis.

[BCowan]

December is always a good time to get the trolley thread up and center.  Any new clubs to celebrate? 

[mike_beene]

It was cool to see Jordan Speith pushing a trolley at Royal Melbourne the other day. Hopefully he will start doing it when he is home, also.

[BCowan]

It was cool to see Jordan Speith pushing a trolley at Royal Melbourne the other day. Hopefully he will start doing it when he is home, also.

Yes, I agree.  It's funny how ''When in Rome'' goes. 

[Brad Payne]

I realize this an old topic, but I thought it relevant to my company, Walker Trolleys, that launched our Kickstarter today to create a trolley that combines classic and modern design in a clean and sleek look.  While we know our product won't appeal to all golfers and for many the cheapest model will do just fine, but for clubs that either don't allow them today because push carts are considered cheap or are looking for a product that better suits the history and tradition of their club, we hope they would consider our push cart as a solution.  The goal at the end of the day is to make trolleys as accepted and popular as they are across the pond(s).  While we have a long way to go, maybe we can make it there one day.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/walkertrolleys/walker-trolley-a-push-cart-for-the-player-and-purist/



If you have any interest, here's a picture of our trolley:

[Dave McCollum]

Nineteen pages on trolleys?  Really?  Not that I read them, of course, but this has to be reflective that we will bullshit about anything.

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