[JMEvensky]

Clubs generally don't set up their budgets in a full disclosure manner.  Its the same with food.  Members don't actually know what it costs to run the kitchen/restaurant (like a true business would) because the facilities are tied into overall club management.  I always think its better to have as close to the real numbers as possible, but I understand thats inherently difficult to do at golf clubs.  The problem is its difficult to properly analyse the "business" side of the club without accurate operating costs.  This is why I think of food, carts etc as services offered by the club rather than "revenue streams".  If the members want them, they have to figure out whats its worth and how to pay for it - by usage, everybody pays the same in monthly dues or a combo of the two.

All true,but...

At a member owned club,the only "profit center" is the dues line. Everything else is a decision of which ledger gets which revenue and/or expense. There's a fine line to walk between making normal business decisions versus "wasteful" member decisions.

A great club isn't always run with cold blooded cost analysis. There has to be some nuance or you lose the feel of a club.

All a Board and/or GM can do is make sure most of the pissed away money  is pissed away on things a significant percentage of the membership is willing to live with.

[Brent Hutto]

I can't help but think free carts drives the cost up for all members, esp. walkers

Well in the aggregate, obviously golf with carts as part of the equation costs more than golf without. If everyone chose to walk and no carts had to be leased, charged, maintained or provided with paths and storage buildings then the total costs of a golf course would be markedly lower.

But as soon as a certain number of golfers insist on playing only where they can ride then the majority of costs are there no matter how much or little the carts are used and no matter how you set the cart fee. At a club with 22,000 rounds per year played the marginal difference in cart-related costs between having 5,000 of those rounds played in carts versus having 20,000 of them played in carts is quite small. All those paths and storage buildings are needed either way, almost as many carts must be leased and maintained. Too much of the cart stuff is either strictly fixed costs or effectively so.

So in a place where cart riding is the normative, majority preference this whole discussion about setting fees, accounting for costs or who is "subsidizing" whom amounts to arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The overall economics of the situation and the trajectory of future trends are pretty much set. All you can do is fiddle around at the margins. Which generally is not worth "fixing" what is perceived as not "broken"...

[Sean_A]

JM

You get no argument from me. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!

[BHoover]

What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!

There are pushcarts and there are pullcarts.

[Bill_McBride]

What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!

The 3-wheeler Sun Mountain "speed cart," for example, was not designed to be pulled comfortably. The handle is too high.  It's really easy to push. I use one during the non-summer months.   My wife uses hers year around. 

[Brent Hutto]

What so you call it when you pull a "push cart"? As Adam says a trolley makes life much easier!

The 3-wheeler Sun Mountain "speed cart," for example, was not designed to be pulled comfortably. The handle is too high.  It's really easy to push. I use one during the non-summer months.   My wife uses hers year around. 

So does the summer Panhandle heat bother your wife and her friends less than it does yourself and your male buddies?

[BCowan]

Roger

Sure, if it ain't broke don't fix it.  It doesn't much matter to me how anybody shuffles numbers around budget columns.  My argument all along has been carts don't subsidize walkers.  All you did was charge double what carts cost to each member (whether they use them or not) and then state that the revenue "subsidizes" walkers.  If you charge members what carts actually cost and raise the dues to cover the actual costs of other items for which you are using the cart "revenue", then carts don't "subsidize"walkers.  Its just pushing numbers and budget headings around, capiche?  Its not like you are generating revenue from the carts because you don't charge based on cart usage.  Plus, we don't know the real costs of the carts even if you did charge by cart usage.  

Clubs generally don't set up their budgets in a full disclosure manner.  Its the same with food.  Members don't actually know what it costs to run the kitchen/restaurant (like a true business would) because the facilities are tied into overall club management.  I always think its better to have as close to the real numbers as possible, but I understand thats inherently difficult to do at golf clubs.  The problem is its difficult to properly analyse the "business" side of the club without accurate operating costs.  This is why I think of food, carts etc as services offered by the club rather than "revenue streams".  If the members want them, they have to figure out whats its worth and how to pay for it - by usage, everybody pays the same in monthly dues or a combo of the two.


Ciao

S,

   This is one of your best posts.  That is utter nonsense using the excuse ''you lose a club experience'' when you don't keep an eye on the numbers.  We are talking about flyover land.  If people can stop saying riders subsidize walkers, we could get over this.  If you are a traditional routed club where walking is part of the culture and you are trying to encourage walking, real simple Charge 65+ year old members $5-$10 for a cart and younger $15-25.  If you are a cartballer course have carballer all you can cart for the year prices (non-mandatory).

[Chris_Hufnagel]

...If you are a traditional routed club...

I don't mean to interrupt the discourse here, but could you please tell me what a "traditional routed club" is?

[BCowan]

...If you are a traditional routed club...

I don't mean to interrupt the discourse here, but could you please tell me what a "traditional routed club" is?

Greens close to tees.  Built/routed for walking.  hence traditional due to (most courses) not having golf carts when they were built

[BHoover]

Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.

[BCowan]

Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.

   If the course has a walking culture and you are trying to encourage walking...then.  Carts at most private clubs are $15-30.  Younger golfers are able to walk 18 holes and the game is a walking game.  I didn't know the First Tee was about encouraging kids to ride in golf carts?  

[JMEvensky]

   This is one of your best posts.  That is utter nonsense using the excuse ''you lose a club experience'' when you don't keep an eye on the numbers.  We are talking about flyover land.  If people can stop saying riders subsidize walkers, we could get over this.  If you are a traditional routed club where walking is part of the culture and you are trying to encourage walking, real simple Charge 65+ year old members $5-$10 for a cart and younger $15-25.  If you are a cartballer course have carballer all you can cart for the year prices (non-mandatory).

For someone who's never been involved in the governance of a member owned club,never been a member of a member owned club,nor probably ever stepped foot on the property of a member owned club,you sure have a lot of opinions.

Are there any other discussion groups you frequent where your knowledge of the subject is less than zero?

[BCowan]

   This is one of your best posts.  That is utter nonsense using the excuse ''you lose a club experience'' when you don't keep an eye on the numbers.  We are talking about flyover land.  If people can stop saying riders subsidize walkers, we could get over this.  If you are a traditional routed club where walking is part of the culture and you are trying to encourage walking, real simple Charge 65+ year old members $5-$10 for a cart and younger $15-25.  If you are a cartballer course have carballer all you can cart for the year prices (non-mandatory).

For someone who's never been involved in the governance of a member owned club,never been a member of a member owned club,nor probably ever stepped foot on the property of a member owned club,you sure have a lot of opinions.

Are there any other discussion groups you frequent where your knowledge of the subject is less than zero?

     Hardly accurate JM, but feel free to look down on me all you want.  My knowledge is in the common sense dept.  There have been many studies even cited on here about clubs not running themselves with the idea of trying to make a profit, even though their goal is to be at zero at the end of the year!  My father happens to be a CPA, I have gone over the books of the member owned club I grew up at.  Seeing all the waste and funky accounting, I don't desire to be a member of a member owned club and due to arseholes like yourself.

[BHoover]

Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.

   If the course has a walking culture and you are trying to encourage walking...then.  Carts at most private clubs are $15-30.  Younger golfers are able to walk 18 holes and the game is a walking game.  I didn't know the First Tee was about encouraging kids to ride in golf carts?  

Would you rather have more people play golf in riding carts, or would you prefer a smaller group of walkers?  If I'm an owner or GM, I think I know which I'd prefer.  Not trying to be snarky here, but for better or worse, the game here in the USA is not necessarily a walking game.  Sure there is a group of us who definitely prefer to walk, but that's not the general golfing public or the vast majority of club members either.

[BCowan]

Why should a younger golfer pay more to ride? That seems contrary to the whole movement designed to get young people to play the game.

   If the course has a walking culture and you are trying to encourage walking...then.  Carts at most private clubs are $15-30.  Younger golfers are able to walk 18 holes and the game is a walking game.  I didn't know the First Tee was about encouraging kids to ride in golf carts?  

Would you rather have more people play golf in riding carts, or would you prefer a smaller group of walkers?  If I'm an owner or GM, I think I know which I'd prefer.

   Are we talking about a private club in middle America or a public course?  If it is a private club, the young members are already paying $15+ a pop.  Don't you think it would be wise to lower Senior cart fee, as a way of thanking them for their 20+ years of being a member.  If you lower your cart fee for the able bodied you are going to have to raise your maint. budget. 

[BHoover]

  Are we talking about a private club in middle America or a public course?  If it is a private club, the young members are already paying $15+ a pop.  Don't you think it would be wise to lower Senior cart fee, as a way of thanking them for their 20+ years of being a member.  If you lower your cart fee for the able bodied you are going to have to raise your maint. budget.  

I think you set the fee at whatever gets people out on the course.  At the end of the day, I am neither an owner, GM, board member, club president, etc., and I'm a walker, so, at the risk of sounding callous, I'm not really sure I care what the cart fee is.  Just as I don't really care whether anyone else carries, rides, pushes, takes a caddy, uses a hovercraft... 

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Brian on this one. All this abstract speculation aside the setting of cart fees higher or lower or to zero has no effect on me whatsoever (unless it's done so foolishly as to somehow make my club insolvent). It's all just a matter of curiosity for me.

At my club (which yes is private and which I suppose would count as "middle America" being in a suburb of a mid-market city not located in a coastal area) it's the young members who get the price breaks. Someone B's age at my club would pay less than 2/3 the dues that I pay. We have like four age tiers of memberships and once you get to 50 you're paying the highest dues.

It's nothing to do with bringing new people to "the game" but comes from a theory that maybe we already have all the 60-year-old guys we're ever going to attract but we're slugging it out with other clubs trying to attract any unaffiliated 30-year-olds who might be looking for a club to join.

[Roger Wolfe]

Roger,
What about the additional costs to maintenance brought on by cart usage, as well as the maintenance of paths?
and the capital costs associated with building cart paths
Don't the fees charged for carts have to allow for that?
Not sure who is subsidizing who, but all costs have to accounted for, and I can't help but think free carts drives the cost up for all members, esp. walkers (due to increased usage causing wear and tear to carts, vehicles, and course)

Good points Jeff.  It is tough to capture all of the costs.  However, if you can live with the assumption that your club MUST HAVE CARTS.  Then you can eliminate the fixed costs and just concentrate on the variable.

As to wear and tear on the golf course.  Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear.  Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent.  We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.

Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers.  Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math.  I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.

[Lou_Duran]

Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers.  Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math.  I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria.

OK, if we can just call the subsidy a "stimulus" would we all feel better?  At the end of the day, the bills have to be paid.  Maybe we should send our fellow members who ride a thank you note occasionally (Mike Beene too for paying $10 to push a cart).  But my, don't we love our free stuff!

[BCowan]

As to wear and tear on the golf course.  Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear.  Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent.  We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
 
   Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it.  Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint.   Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week.  Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter?  I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic.  I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness.  It's really a team effort. 

Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers.  Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math.  I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria. 

It is all marketing, you keep cart fees high, so you can lower your monthly dues.  It is deceptive telling people what your monthly dues are, and the bill they get at the end of the month/year with all the x,y, and z mandatory fees.  As my friend who is an exceptional keeper replied, ''If we didn't have any walking rounds, the maint of the course would go up''.  You aren't subsidizing walkers, you are encouraging less carts

[Carl Johnson]

As to wear and tear on the golf course.  Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear.  Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent.  We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.

I'll help Roger  out a little.
 
   Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it.  Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint.  I walk with a power cart for my bag.  I carry two "sand" bottles, and refill, so sometimes I'll use four bottles around.  Spare time between shots.  I fill divots.   Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week.  Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter?  Not currently (although in the very distant past we did one or two years.  No point in it as I see it).  I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic.  From my standpoint, as a member of the club, that does not seem to be a problem. I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness.  It's really a team effort.  

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest, what would happen if a bunch of members just turned-up with trolleys/push-carts and went out and used them, just did it? Would they be chucked off the course, be fined or disciplined in some way, have their memberships suspended? No slight intended, just curious.
Atb

[Jud_T]

Thomas,

Depending on the club, the response might be 1) Nothing 2) They might get a verbal or written warning when an uppity member complained or 3) they might get tackled by the club's elite rent-a-cop brigade...

[Lou_Duran]

Thomas,

Depending on the club, the response might be 1) Nothing 2) They might get a verbal or written warning when an uppity member complained or 3) they might get tackled by the club's elite rent-a-cop brigade...

4) be charged a riding cart fee and sent a letter of reprimand.  At least in this part of the country, few private clubs would look the other way. 

A buddy of mine effectively did this in a bad economy, carried his clubs in the club championship, and he was billed, shunned by his playing partners, and handed a letter by the head pro when he finished his round stating that he would be disqualified if he failed to abide by club rules from then on.  Years later, the club relaxed this rule; one could walk during tournaments provided that a cart fee was paid and play was not delayed.  Peer pressure remained unchanged- in his case, riders complained that a) he was slow (a fact), and b) his clubs clinked when he walked up behind them disturbing their shot preparation (they did).  At least he won the club championship one year, riding since he was being charged anyways.

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