Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[BCowan]

Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.

Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.

For $1200 you can take a trolley

[Carl Johnson]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

   This really isn't a fair question due to many clubs not even allowing carrying.  many clubs allow carrying when a caddie isn't available.  All of those are non trolleys.  

Then why is the question only in relation to push carts?  Why not ask why carrying and/or push carts are not allowed at all times?

   There are many clubs that allow carrying when caddy isn't there, but don't allow a trolley.  I could name a ton.

Question: Does anyone know how many USA (1) private clubs and (2) public courses  have real (not just nominal) caddy programs, and the percentages those are of all the clubs/courses in the respective categories?  (I have no idea.)  This is before asking questions about "mandatory" caddies, etc.  Those are separate questions.

[John Kavanaugh]

Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.

Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.

For $1200 you can take a trolley

No, for $1,200 you can take either a cart or a trolley.  You can also choose to pay a individual fee each time you take either. I prefer the single fee system because I play a ton and some days like to play an odd amount of holes. I own my own cart at another course where I am a member and the $1200 per year unlimited lease is a better deal than BYOMoT.

[BCowan]

Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.

Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.

For $1200 you can take a trolley

No, for $1,200 you can take either a cart or a trolley.  You can also choose to pay a individual fee each time you take either. I prefer the single fee system because I play a ton and some days like to play an odd amount of holes. I own my own cart at another course where I am a member and the $1200 per year unlimited lease is a better deal than BYOMoT.

BYOMoT could be better for some, but why mandatory?  Are battery operated trolleys provided by the club?  Shouldn't we have a choice at our own club jkava?

[John Kavanaugh]

Let me add this. Victoria also gives me one unaccompanied foursome to donate to the charity of my choice.  When you take that into account the yearly cart fee may as well be a wash. We are partners trying to sustain a great club full of good friends. Neither side gives a damn about picking eithers pocket.

Nothing is mandatory. Play however you can imagine short of using a yak. BYOMoT is bring your own mode of transportation. I prefer the club have my chosen mode stored, cleaned and trained at the club.

[BCowan]

Let me add this. Victoria also gives me one unaccompanied foursome to donate to the charity of my choice.  When you take that into account the yearly cart fee may as well be a wash. We are partners trying to sustain a great club full of good friends. Neither side gives a damn about picking eithers pocket.

Nothing is mandatory. Play however you can imagine short of using a yak. BYOMoT is bring your own mode of transportation. I prefer the club have my chosen mode stored, cleaned and trained at the club.

Jkava, I always figured you were a charitable man.  I hope no one is picking anyone's pocket. 

[Roger Wolfe]

This is a really fun thread....  I think a very important point is that 99 percent of clubs cannot exist without golf carts plus the carts need to be operational.  Our club historically leased carts (due to their importance) and purchased maintenance equipment. 

Five years ago, with a lot of hard work and epic board meetings, I convinced the Board that mowing equipment should be treated just like the golf carts.  We could not exist without it and it had to be operational... therefore we began converting all mowing equipment to operating leases (fairway units, rough units, tee/approach units, walk mowers/utility vehicles) which became part of the dues structure.  I don't think you see anyone charging a fee to pay for the maintenance equipment leases... maybe you could count divots or... god forbid... charge a players' fee for EVERYONE who played the golf course.  Maybe you could charge a fee based on handicap because better players leave more ball marks since they hit so many greens?

Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart?  Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary?  Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers?  It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.

There is something very special about being able to join a private club and walk for free.  As one of the very few GM's who also belong to another private club, I really learned how special that was.  At Gaston CC (close to Charlotte) I walked 80 percent of the time and truly enjoyed every minute of it.  I am no longer a member at GCC and I miss it dearly.  However, I remain a non resident member at Mimosa Hills about 75 miles away.  I ride at Mimosa (usually playing 36 since the drive is so long).  The knees are aching but i hope to be walking up there again as much as possible in the near future.  The ability to walk for free is a sacred thing that should be preserved.

Perhaps the best compromise is, during the budgeting process, calculate the true cost of your fleet of golf carts.  Take that number and divide it by your historical number of "cart rounds."  The result should be your cart fee.  Therefore, the riders are only paying for the carts... the walkers are not being subsidized by profit made from excessive cart fees... everyone is happy.  I know our cart fee, a paltry $14 to begin with, would drop below $10 if we adopted this policy.  I would have to somehow replace the lost revenue... most likely via a dues increase.  The next year we reassess... perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper... the cart fee goes even lower since the fixed cost of my cart fleet doesn't change.

It surely is a fun argument.  The GM in me says to include them as an operating expense.  The golfer in me says find the right compromise so everyone is happy and paying their fair share.  I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.

[BCowan]

'' I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.''

   You somewhat contradicted yourself.  I implied that if a club's culture wants younger members walking they could influence that with higher cart fees.  

 ''perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper''

supply side economics....

Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart?  Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary?  Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers?  It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.

This is beyond a ridiculous statement!


This is a really fun thread....

+1

[Roger Wolfe]

'' I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.''

   You just contradicted yourself.

 ''perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper''

supply side economics....

Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart?  Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary?  Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers?  It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.

This is beyond a ridiculous statement!


This is a really fun thread....

+1

I am not going to respond to your comments above in little red italics... this is the best I can do.

1.  I am not contradicting myself... I am agreeing with you that I feel bad for the old and hobbled folks who have to use a cart but still enjoy the game.  They should NOT be soaked with $25 cart fees.  But they should pay their fair share of the expense related to the cart fleet... not a penny more.

2.  If you charge less for a cart... more might use them.  Not sure what your "supply side economics" comment means.  I just run a golf club and know that when we lower a fee for anything (guest fees or cart fees)... the volume increases.

3.  Golf Carts are on operating expense by definition since your club cannot exist without them.  Please elaborate how this is ridiculous.

[BCowan]

1. We agree for the most part, I amended my earlier remarks  (depends on culture of the club)

2. Bingo, we agree again.  

3.  A club can't exist without mowers, isn't the same thing as golf carts.  Determining what percentage are walkers at a club is crucial.  Treating carts the same as a mower is a little disingenuous in my opinion.   ''why are we obsessed with charging for golf carts''

[Bill_McBride]

This is a really fun thread....  I think a very important point is that 99 percent of clubs cannot exist without golf carts plus the carts need to be operational.  Our club historically leased carts (due to their importance) and purchased maintenance equipment. 

Five years ago, with a lot of hard work and epic board meetings, I convinced the Board that mowing equipment should be treated just like the golf carts.  We could not exist without it and it had to be operational... therefore we began converting all mowing equipment to operating leases (fairway units, rough units, tee/approach units, walk mowers/utility vehicles) which became part of the dues structure.  I don't think you see anyone charging a fee to pay for the maintenance equipment leases... maybe you could count divots or... god forbid... charge a players' fee for EVERYONE who played the golf course.  Maybe you could charge a fee based on handicap because better players leave more ball marks since they hit so many greens?

Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart?  Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary?  Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers?  It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.

There is something very special about being able to join a private club and walk for free.  As one of the very few GM's who also belong to another private club, I really learned how special that was.  At Gaston CC (close to Charlotte) I walked 80 percent of the time and truly enjoyed every minute of it.  I am no longer a member at GCC and I miss it dearly.  However, I remain a non resident member at Mimosa Hills about 75 miles away.  I ride at Mimosa (usually playing 36 since the drive is so long).  The knees are aching but i hope to be walking up there again as much as possible in the near future.  The ability to walk for free is a sacred thing that should be preserved.

Perhaps the best compromise is, during the budgeting process, calculate the true cost of your fleet of golf carts.  Take that number and divide it by your historical number of "cart rounds."  The result should be your cart fee.  Therefore, the riders are only paying for the carts... the walkers are not being subsidized by profit made from excessive cart fees... everyone is happy.  I know our cart fee, a paltry $14 to begin with, would drop below $10 if we adopted this policy.  I would have to somehow replace the lost revenue... most likely via a dues increase.  The next year we reassess... perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper... the cart fee goes even lower since the fixed cost of my cart fleet doesn't change.

It surely is a fun argument.  The GM in me says to include them as an operating expense.  The golfer in me says find the right compromise so everyone is happy and paying their fair share.  I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.

Roger, that is an elegant solution.  I really think a rider has to pay for the use of a riding cart while the w
alker walks for free, but the lower the cart fee the better. 

[mike_beene]

But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.

[BCowan]

This is a really fun thread....  I think a very important point is that 99 percent of clubs cannot exist without golf carts plus the carts need to be operational.  Our club historically leased carts (due to their importance) and purchased maintenance equipment. 

Five years ago, with a lot of hard work and epic board meetings, I convinced the Board that mowing equipment should be treated just like the golf carts.  We could not exist without it and it had to be operational... therefore we began converting all mowing equipment to operating leases (fairway units, rough units, tee/approach units, walk mowers/utility vehicles) which became part of the dues structure.  I don't think you see anyone charging a fee to pay for the maintenance equipment leases... maybe you could count divots or... god forbid... charge a players' fee for EVERYONE who played the golf course.  Maybe you could charge a fee based on handicap because better players leave more ball marks since they hit so many greens?

Ridiculous yes... but why are we so obsessed with charging for a golf cart?  Is it because, for years, golf pros owned them and you were paying his salary?  Why aren't they treated like an operating expense... similar to mowers?  It just doesn't make financial sense... but, it does make "golfer" sense.

There is something very special about being able to join a private club and walk for free.  As one of the very few GM's who also belong to another private club, I really learned how special that was.  At Gaston CC (close to Charlotte) I walked 80 percent of the time and truly enjoyed every minute of it.  I am no longer a member at GCC and I miss it dearly.  However, I remain a non resident member at Mimosa Hills about 75 miles away.  I ride at Mimosa (usually playing 36 since the drive is so long).  The knees are aching but i hope to be walking up there again as much as possible in the near future.  The ability to walk for free is a sacred thing that should be preserved.

Perhaps the best compromise is, during the budgeting process, calculate the true cost of your fleet of golf carts.  Take that number and divide it by your historical number of "cart rounds."  The result should be your cart fee.  Therefore, the riders are only paying for the carts... the walkers are not being subsidized by profit made from excessive cart fees... everyone is happy.  I know our cart fee, a paltry $14 to begin with, would drop below $10 if we adopted this policy.  I would have to somehow replace the lost revenue... most likely via a dues increase.  The next year we reassess... perhaps MORE folks will ride now that it is cheaper... the cart fee goes even lower since the fixed cost of my cart fleet doesn't change.

It surely is a fun argument.  The GM in me says to include them as an operating expense.  The golfer in me says find the right compromise so everyone is happy and paying their fair share.  I don't agree with BCowan that one member should pay more or less for a cart than another... I do agree that soaking the heavy cart user (old folks) with a cart fee MORE than necessary to cover cart expenses isn't fair.

Roger, that is an elegant solution.  I really think a rider has to pay for the use of a riding cart while the w
alker walks for free, but the lower the cart fee the better. 

Bill,

   I've always been impressed with your ability to reason and make great points in a simplistic manner.  lower cart fees so the walker isn't blamed.  

[BCowan]

But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.

Mike,

   Yes, I do.  As long as they allow you to bring your trolley with no charge, it shouldn't matter. 

[John Kavanaugh]

But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.

Compared to the price of a martini it is not excessive at all. How humiliating must it be to have a bag boy pull your trolley out of your trunk, mount your bag and wheel it down to the staging area as you go inside to put on your shoes. Come on man, fork over ten bucks and save everyone the trouble and let the club buy, maintain, clean and store your trolley. Why not stop in the barrio and pick up your own caddie?  Truth be known, the only caddie I have used this year was my wife. I would far more prefer to bring my own caddie than haul around my personal trolley in the bed of my pick up truck.

[Carl Nichols]

I dare anyone to name 3 private clubs that allow carrying at all times but not push carts.  I can't name 1.

My club is one. Brookside G&CC in Columbus, OH.  Of course, we have tee times also, so perhaps that makes us unworthy of consideration in your eyes.  We have caddies available, but they are not mandatory.  The club owns push carts, but they are available only when riding carts are not permitted (due to weather).  I don't like this policy, but it is a very small complaint (for me) at an otherwise terrific club.

My club is another. You can walk anytime you want, but never with a push cart. If you want to walk on weekend mornings, you either have to take a caddie or pay a fee (equal to the cart fee) to walk and carry.  There's no fee any other time, but again, you can never use a push cart.  

[Jud_T]

Charge $100 minus a dollar per degree in Farenheit for anyone under 70 who doesn't have a doctor's note to take a riding cart.  If you take a cart on a 50 degree day it's $50, but if you ride in Phoenix on a 110 degree day you get $10 off at the snack bar!  Also takes pressure of the Saturday morning rush before the mercury rises. Charge 50 cents/pound.  Charge $5/hour.  Sponsor a speed golf event with mandatory push carts.  Make able bodied members caddie for the caddie tournament.  Think of all the food and beverage revenue you'll get from walkers who need somewhere to put their food and drinks.  Get combo push cart/ baby strollers.  Get electric push carts hooked up directly to the wind turbines off your coastal holes.  Sell the naming rights to your club to a cart company.  Sell advertising space on your golf carts so they all look like massively decaled Nascar cars.  

[mike_beene]

We can't use our own trolleys. I have the exact sun mountain we use at the club but it can't come on the property. And I spend plenty at the club. It is like the 5 buck diet coke in the mini bar. I won't drink it out of principle even if client is paying.

[Sean_A]

Looking at Roger's figures, I get a total cost of £71,000 per year for carts with no allowance for staff, maintenance of the path, damage to the course, storage building, pension, insurance etc.  

£71,000 divided by 10,000 cart rounds = $7 a round, again without including serious extras which likely pushes that price up.  Roger budgets $25 a member per month which comes out to $150,000 per year for the club.  But he says the carts only cost $71,000 a year to operate.  Why is the membership being charged an extra $79,000 a year ($158 per member) in the name of carts?  One could just as easily charge the members $12 a month and say the cart system does not subsidize the walkers.  Hell, going on Roger's figures, why not just charge the members who use carts $7 a round (Rogers claim of the true cost per round) for the service rather than adding $25 a month per member?  Anybody can claim carts as a revenue source if the members are charged twice what they cost. To me, this is just shuffling figures in budget columns then claiming riders subsidize walkers - it isn't accurate.  Sure, then dues need to go up by presumably by amount lost in carts, but at least one gets a true reflection of what things cost so when it comes time to cut the budget there are real figures to work with.  All that said, I am a firm believer that clubs have a core operation(s) and the add-ons are services. If the members want the services they figure out how to pay for them.  Some clubs like the all-in approach and some prefer the extra services be charged on a user basis.  Roger obviously knows his membership and believes they don't care if they are over-charged for carts because the breakdown per month isn't much anyway. As a member of a club, I would much rather know the true operational figures.  


Ciao

[BCowan]

But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.

Compared to the price of a martini it is not excessive at all. How humiliating must it be to have a bag boy pull your trolley out of your trunk, mount your bag and wheel it down to the staging area as you go inside to put on your shoes. Come on man, fork over ten bucks and save everyone the trouble and let the club buy, maintain, clean and store your trolley. Why not stop in the barrio and pick up your own caddie?  Truth be known, the only caddie I have used this year was my wife. I would far more prefer to bring my own caddie than haul around my personal trolley in the bed of my pick up truck.

There is no bag boy required at my parents club to assemble the trolley.  People have the option to bay for trolley storage, then the bag boy is utilized.  You obviously don't understand why private golf is in the shape that it is.  You prefer to do what you like and leave the other preferences up to others.  Why the hate Jkava?

[BCowan]

Looking at Roger's figures, I get a total cost of £71,000 per year for carts with no allowance for staff, maintenance of the path, damage to the course, storage building, pension, insurance etc.  

£71,000 divided by 10,000 cart rounds = $7 a round, again without including serious extras which likely pushes that price up.  Roger budgets $25 a member per month which comes out to $150,000 per year for the club.  But he says the carts only cost $71,000 a year to operate.  Why is the membership being charged an extra $79,000 a year ($158 per member) in the name of carts?  One could just as easily charge the members $12 a month and say the cart system does not subsidize the walkers.  Hell, going on Roger's figures, why not just charge the members who use carts $7 a round (Rogers claim of the true cost per round) for the service rather than adding $25 a month per member?  Anybody can claim carts as a revenue source if the members are charged twice what they cost. To me, this is just shuffling figures in budget columns then claiming riders subsidize walkers - it isn't accurate.  Sure, then dues need to go up by presumably by amount lost in carts, but at least one gets a true reflection of what things cost so when it comes time to cut the budget there are real figures to work with.  All that said, I am a firm believer that clubs have a core operation(s) and the add-ons are services. If the members want the services they figure out how to pay for them.  Some clubs like the all-in approach and some prefer the extra services be charged on a user basis.  Roger obviously knows his membership and believes they don't care if they are over-charged for carts because the breakdown per month isn't much anyway. As a member of a club, I would much rather know the true operational figures.  


Ciao

S,

     This is the way most American clubs operate in price structure imho.  Most try and make the monthly dues as low as possible, then they add locker fee, range fee, food min., overcharge on carts, and prob a few others. 

[ChipRoyce]

But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.

Absolutely!
Its crazy to think that a club would prohibit outside push carts and charge anything more than $2-3 for a push cart rental. A cliqgear costs about $200 and should easily last 100-150 rounds.

[BHoover]

Does anyone else hate the terms "trolley" and "buggy" when used to describe pushcarts and riding carts?

If cart fees were reduced, most of my friends would be inclined to ride more often.

[Brent Hutto]

But don't you guys think 10 dollars to rent a push cart is excessive? The club must be making extra money off the fee.

Absolutely!
Its crazy to think that a club would prohibit outside push carts and charge anything more than $2-3 for a push cart rental. A cliqgear costs about $200 and should easily last 100-150 rounds.

You can buy a 12-pack of beer at the grocery store a lot cheaper than what it costs to drink in your club's bar. You can store clubs at home for free instead of paying a bag storage fee at your club. You can buy golf balls cheaper on eBay than in your club's pro shop. Everything can be found cheaper, somewhere.

Presumably a club charging $10 for a push-cart (or trolley, trolley, trolley, trolley...just for Brian ;-) is wishing to make money and not just break even.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Does anyone else hate the terms "trolley" and "buggy" when used to describe pushcarts and riding carts?

When I am in the UK playing golf, I love it and, for me, it is part of the charm of golfing there...

When I am in the USA or on GCA, at least to me, it is simply affectatious...