Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[Jason Thurman]

Picking and choosing what type of members interesting.

Not that interesting. It's standard practice for private clubs. Maybe someday you'll join one.

[Terry Lavin]

Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.

I'm +1 on this too.

This is one of the "cultural" issues at private clubs.  Many have always had tee times, particularly during hours when guest play is allowed.  Others have tee times at all times.  Still others have no formal tee times at all.  For decades, Olympia Fields had no tee times, even, as they say, "on the 4th of July", but a few years back, the club finally instituted tee times after a lot of the younger guys started complaining that they needed to be able to plan exactly when they were playing, probably so they wouldn't be late to watch their four year-old in soccer practice.  Then the old guys whined about being hemmed into a set schedule.  Eventually, everything settled down and everybody has figured out how to get a game scheduled in the new "culture".  In my experience, most of the clubs with no set tee times are old, fuddy-duddy clubs that get very little play.  Not that there's anything wrong with that!

[Sean_A]

 Having voting rights to justify $500+ a month dues, i'll pass even if I was a millionaire.

Hmmm, sounds very similar to the difference between owning a house and renting.  So lets just say folks at Radrick rent their golf membership only they are lucky that the start up costs (and capital improvements?) are not included in the rent thanks to a very kind person  .  I think I made my point that comparing a publicly owned facilty to a privately owned club is not very helpful.  No need to continue further.  

Oh really than explain why the UofM courses loses tons of money, it has a rich university backing it up?

How in the heck can a publicly owned course lose money?  The Blue course is operated as benefit to the staff and students.  You may as well say the women's basketball team loses money - its meaningless because its not a business.  

Jason

I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out    Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head.  

Ciao

[BCowan]

Picking and choosing what type of members interesting.

Not that interesting. It's standard practice for private clubs. Maybe someday you'll join one.

    Yeah we are in a recovery right now, I forgot.  Nah, to my friends I am already a member of one.  The in-exclusive process weeds out the folks I try and avoid.  

[John Kavanaugh]

All these old men playing golf into their 80's is a new phenomenon.  I started playing golf in 68 and they just weren't around in these numbers.  Sure there were some outliers who somehow escaped the great wars and antiquated health care but now they outnumber the youth.  I'm quickly becoming one myself and while we can be a nuisance we shall be tolerated or we will bring all of you down with us.

[BCowan]

Having voting rights to justify $500+ a month dues, i'll pass even if I was a millionaire.

Hmmm, sounds very similar to the difference between owning a house and renting.  So lets just say folks at Radrick rent their golf membership only they are lucky that the start up costs (and capital improvements?) are not included in the rent thanks to a very kind person  .  I think I made my point that comparing a publicly owned facilty to a privately owned club is not very helpful.  No need to continue further.  You and I both know the golden age courses have been paid off for 50+ years, so your point is null and void.  No, you re-iterated the typical private club.

Oh really than explain why the UofM courses loses tons of money, it has a rich university backing it up?

How in the heck can a publicly owned course lose money?  The Blue course is operated as benefit to the staff and students.  You may as well say the women's basketball team loses money - its meaningless because its not a business.  
It costs the Univ. Money.  It is set up as a non-profit.  Football donates money back to the univ., Woman's softball more than likely losses money.  Do you understand now?  Many different types of non-profits.  
Jason

I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out    Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head.  At the true private equity club I grew up at, one of the guys in my father's sat. morning group dropped out, due to wife playing a lot more and the cart fees were adding up due to them playing everyday.  So there you lose your monthly dues by gouging your members with absorbent cart fees.  Only you have been kicked by a mule!

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I'd say something on the order of 60-70% of the target market for private club memberships in my local area are cart users who wouldn't even look at a club that had no carts available. In fact, I'm not sure the true percentage isn't higher than that.

So by my definition of "profit" I'd say that golf carts produce a clear profit for private clubs. Given that only one course in town has anything close to a waiting list and most clubs are far below their full subscription numbers, nobody could afford to not offer golf carts and thereby turn away the vast majority of potential members.

Setting the exact cart fee is an internal matter that has to be reckoned on an individual-club basis. But you can't just plop down a walking-only golf course in the middle of a Sunbelt suburb and expect it to even get off the ground.

Anything that you can stay in business by offering and that you'd go out of business by not offering is certainly "profitable".

[BCowan]

I'd say something on the order of 60-70% of the target market for private club memberships in my local area are cart users who wouldn't even look at a club that had no carts available. In fact, I'm not sure the true percentage isn't higher than that.

So by my definition of "profit" I'd say that golf carts produce a clear profit for private clubs. Given that only one course in town has anything close to a waiting list and most clubs are far below their full subscription numbers, nobody could afford to not offer golf carts and thereby turn away the vast majority of potential members.

Setting the exact cart fee is an internal matter that has to be reckoned on an individual-club basis. But you can't just plop down a walking-only golf course in the middle of a Sunbelt suburb and expect it to even get off the ground.

Anything that you can stay in business by offering and that you'd go out of business by not offering is certainly "profitable".

Who is advocating a walking only club?  I agree with everything else you said.  When people say riders subsidize walkers, it is beyond stupid of them to gouge their own cart riders imho.  A walking fee could piss off the 10-15% that walk and they quit.  Lower cart fees could stimulate more riding rounds if you are focusing on cart revenue at a club. 

[Jason Thurman]

Jason

I think the point is do carts actually generate a profit for private clubs? I am not sure this is the case much of the time because of extra costs such maintenance, storage, course damage, etc, but I am unwilling to join a cartball club to find out    Now, go see a doctor about yer mule kicked head. 

Sean, they generate a profit at my club, and I think buried somewhere back on page 2 or 3 of this thread was some data that showed they almost always generate a profit for a club that has them. In the absence of any real data to support the contention, I’m considering the notion that carts cost more in expenses than they recoup through revenue to be...

[Bill_McBride]

How did clubs survive prior to carts???  

Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.

Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.

As a senior member myself, I object to your characterization!  

The average age of the members in private clubs is probably 60+ and rising.  

I still have to be persuaded that carts are a net profit center.  I don't think maintenance of cart paths and compacted soil, or the storage building, are properly accounted for in a true analysis of the costs.  

EDIT:  Sorry Sean, missed your post.  We think alike on this issue. 

[Brent Hutto]

Bill,

What proportion of your membership would you lose if you had no carts? I'd guess for Pensacola CC it would be approximately 100%. Give or take ;-)

So regardless of accounting truth or fiction, carts are as much as part of the infrastructure as having restrooms or electrical and water utilities. Without the carts, the club ceases to exist.

Pricing cart fees is therefore a political issue and not an accounting one, by my thinking.

[Jud_T]

At the true private equity club I grew up at, one of the guys in my father's sat. morning group dropped out, due to wife playing a lot more and the cart fees were adding up due to them playing everyday.  So there you lose your monthly dues by gouging your members with absorbent cart fees. [color]

Ciao

47 posts and gallons of red and blue ink to find out that your world view was shaped during your formative years by Joe the Plumber who couldn't hack the cart fees.  Perhaps an on-line adult education course in Concision 101 is in order...

[Daryl David]

Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.

+1

[BCowan]

At the true private equity club I grew up at, one of the guys in my father's sat. morning group dropped out, due to wife playing a lot more and the cart fees were adding up due to them playing everyday.  So there you lose your monthly dues by gouging your members with absorbent cart fees. [color]

Ciao

47 posts and gallons of red and blue ink to find out that your world view was shaped during your formative years by Joe the Plumber who couldn't hack the cart fees.  Perhaps an on-line adult education course at University of Phoenix in Concision 101 is in order...

    Jud, bringing politics into this are we?  Your educational back ground doesn't make up for your lack of common sense.  I've been around the block.  Funny thing is, the course i grew up is in the best financial shape of every club in the area it is in.  Coming from a guy who drives 5 hours to play his home course, lol.  $5,000 in cart fees adds up in Flyover country. 

[Lou_Duran]

This has all the look and feel of a great day.

This could be the best post ever.

Come on Scott.  You can add to this post.  Tell us how riding carts are viewed in the industry and how much they add to the bottom line.  When I was looking at it in Texas many years ago, my recollection is that most courses do well over 80% of rounds on carts and profit margins were in the 60-70%.  Fully allocating barn, cart paths, and wear and tear, carts probably have a larger net profit margin than even soft goods.  Consider the revenue that would be lost after inclement weather (a purpose of the hated cart path) as well as the fixed cost nature of the fleet, and it is no wonder that club managers seek to maximize usage.

It behooves me how an entrepreneur like The Yank can't tell the difference between an item that commands incremental revenue at most courses and something that only adds costs.  Why pray tell would a manager mess with a cart fleet if it didn't add value?

A reason that some riders look down at walkers is because in relative terms they don't add as much to the  financial well-being of the club.  Scott may have some data on this, but a manager at a former club told me that the average monthly bill of his active riders dwarfed those of his active walkers, and by considerably more than could be accounted for by cart usage (F&B, balls and equipment, soft goods, etc.).   While I know that most of us are calling for flexibility as opposed to banning riding carts, perhaps a more correct attitude would be one of gratitude for those who spend generously at our clubs.

[John Kavanaugh]

It wasn't all that long ago that many pros owned the carts.  The clubs saw how much money they were giving away and being a pro was never again so sweet.

[Jud_T]

$5,000 in cart fees adds up in Flyover country. 

This sounds like a bargain for 200 rounds of golf.  So how do you suggest the club replace that 5k?  Oh yeah, more members, less maintenance and tee times.  Got it.

[Mike Hendren]

Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.

IMHO perhaps the most outrageous post I've read in my dozen years here.

Bogey

[Carl Johnson]

Bill,

What proportion of your membership would you lose if you had no carts? I'd guess for Pensacola CC it would be approximately 100%. Give or take ;-)

So regardless of accounting truth or fiction, carts are as much as part of the infrastructure as having restrooms or electrical and water utilities. Without the carts, the club ceases to exist.

Pricing cart fees is therefore a political issue and not an accounting one, by my thinking.

I think it's both - apples and oranges.  Whether carts are profitable or not depends on revenue vs. expense.  Cart fees are the revenue.  No matter how you look at it, I'd guess that if a club charged $4.00 per player cart fee for 18 holes, you'd be hard pressed to show a cart "profit."  On the other hand, a friend of mine belongs to a Naples, Fla. area course that charges members $25 per person for a cart for 18 holes.  Every round my friend and his wife play together, which is a lot, riding, costs them $50 (in addition to their hefty initiation fee and very hefty dues).  Seems like an odd arrangement to me, but my guess is that this club shows a cart profit on its books.  On the other hand, the expense side is tricky.  What expenses do you allocate to the cart column?  As discussed above, there are all kinds of possible charges.  I have no idea how various clubs do their cart accounting, if they do it at all, but what they show as "profit," if they do, is an accounting issue -- both on the revenue side and on the expense side.  (Caveat - I am not an accountant, but for me accounting is all fiction.  The idea seems to be that the presentation of the numbers can be useful if the rules -- man-made -- under which the numbers are presented are reasonable, clear, and consistently followed.  Sounds like a good idea to me.)

In the USA it would be a very rare club that could exist without carts.  They have become part of the game.  So, as Brent says: "carts are as much as part of the infrastructure as having restrooms or electrical and water utilities. Without the carts, the club ceases to exist."

On the other hand, how the club decides to price carts, or anything else at the club for that matter, is 100% a political (i.e. policy), decision.

[BCowan]

$5,000 in cart fees adds up in Flyover country. 

This sounds like a bargain for 200 rounds of golf.  So how do you suggest the club replace that 5k?  Oh yeah, more members, less maintenance and tee times.  Got it.

   Yeah, from an elitist perspective living in Chicago it does sound like a bargin.  Again you keep proving your ignorance.  Explain how the club replaces a $5,000 a year in dues from a member that was a member for 25 years?  If a membership isn't 90+%- full, they might want to consider keeping existing members?  It doesn't require more maint.  the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.  Do clubs have senior membership fees?  yeah.  Why no senior cart fee?  Oh the terrible idea of having to make a tee time, the inconvenience of logging on and typing your name it. wow. 

[Brent Hutto]

...the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.

B,

You just make this shit up as you go along, don't you?

At my club the 65, 70, 75 year old guys either walk every round or most rounds. It's the 30, 40, 50 year olds that always take carts when they play. It's not an age thing, it's a generational thing.

[BCowan]

...the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.

B,

You just make this shit up as you go along, don't you?

At my club the 65, 70, 75 year old guys either walk every round or most rounds. It's the 30, 40, 50 year olds that always take carts when they play. It's not an age thing, it's a generational thing.

Brent,

    My mom's 67 and walks 4 days a weak with a 50 deg curvature in her back with a trolley.  Many of the members walk into their 70s and 80's but some switch to carts around 65 and 70.  I have no problem charging 30 year olds $25 for carts, but I do for members that are at the age of needing them.  $10 it should be for 65+ inho.  The gentlemen i was referring too had diabetes, do I need to write a 3 page short story for you?  I agree with the generational thing.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Here it is in black and white:  Radrick Farms reservation policy.  Works more like a Russian bread line than a private club tee sheet.

http://radrick.umich.edu/?page_id=139

[Paul Gray]

11 pages and, so far as I'm aware, not one reference to the successful models which exist outside your own country. Crazy, I know, but do you think there might actually be something to learn from the rest of the planet?

[Aaron McMaster]

...the gentlemen was 65+ years of age, the people carts are meant for.

B,

You just make this shit up as you go along, don't you?

At my club the 65, 70, 75 year old guys either walk every round or most rounds. It's the 30, 40, 50 year olds that always take carts when they play. It's not an age thing, it's a generational thing.

Brent,

    My mom's 67 and walks 4 days a weak with a 50 deg curvature in her back with a trolley.  Many of the members walk into their 70s and 80's but some switch to carts around 65 and 70.  I have no problem charging 30 year olds $25 for carts, but I do for members that are at the age of needing them.  $10 it should be for 65+ inho.  The gentlemen i was referring too had diabetes, do I need to write a 3 page short story for you?  I agree with the generational thing.   

"Don't you people have HOMES!"