Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[Carl Johnson]

My club has two rules that I hate.  The first is a complete ban on push carts.  I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts.  I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.

The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride.  I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good).  The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.

For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag).  You use your own -- not the club's.  The club will store for you for $10/month.  Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes.  If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived.  We do not have a caddy program.  There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise.  Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart.  All of which seems quite reasonable to me.

[Brent Hutto]

My member-owned club in South Carolina has the same policies as Carl's except for the mandatory carts on Saturday mornings. That idea was mooted by the Board a few years back and never implemented due to overwhelmingly negative member feedback.

[EDIT] I forgot to mention that there is a per-round fee for walking at my club. It is three dollars (a buck fifty for nine holes) per round. The riding cart fee is somewhere in the twenty dollar range.

[David_Tepper]

Carl Nichols -

Good luck with your quest. I hope the trial period for push carts comes about.

Personally, I could never imagine belonging to a golf club where I would be charged a fee to walk at any time.

DT

[Carl Nichols]

Carl Nichols -

Good luck with your quest. I hope the trial period for push carts comes about.

Personally, I could never imagine belonging to a golf club where I would be charged a fee to walk at any time.

DT

Thanks David.  The fee didn't exist when I joined.  Several years ago we instituted a "trail fee" to walk on weekend mornings, but the amount was much lower (I think the first year it was $7 or $8).  I don't know when it got jacked up to what it is now. 

[Carl Nichols]

My club has two rules that I hate.  The first is a complete ban on push carts.  I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts.  I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.

The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride.  I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good).  The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.

For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag).  You use your own -- not the club's.  The club will store for you for $10/month.  Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes.  If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived.  We do not have a caddy program.  There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise.  Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart.  All of which seems quite reasonable to me.

Do you agree with the pace-of-play justification for the riding requirement on Saturday mornings--and do you agree that that's a reasonable rule?

[Brent Hutto]

My club has two rules that I hate.  The first is a complete ban on push carts.  I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts.  I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.

The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride.  I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good).  The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.

For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag).  You use your own -- not the club's.  The club will store for you for $10/month.  Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes.  If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived.  We do not have a caddy program.  There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise.  Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart.  All of which seems quite reasonable to me.

Do you agree with the pace-of-play justification for the riding requirement on Saturday mornings--and do you agree that that's a reasonable rule?

I won't answer for Carl but my club is near enough to an even mix of walkers and riders most weekend days. I can not perceive any difference in pace of play between the two. Many of the quickest players in the club are walkers but I can also think of a couple guys who play really quick who are riders. And of course plenty of slowpokes to be found in both groups as well.

Of course the rhythm of playing in carts vs. walking is totally different. So when walkers and cart riders play together each of them will be waiting on the other at certain points during the round. Which leads to both "sides" claiming that the other plays slowly.

This past Sunday I played a very slow round (by the standards of my club). I was playing solo and teed off behind a long string of foursomes and threesomes so I knew it would be a long day. There were two visitors (two gentlemen playing under a reciprocal-play arrangement with an out of town club) in a cart with the tee time right behind me. Both myself and the assistant pro who signed them in suggested they pair up with me since the course was full ahead of us. When we got to the first tee they noticed that I was walking as were the group ahead of us. They made some comment about how they didn't have time to play behind a bunch of walkers and bailed on me without even a fare-thee-well. Of course the foursomes two and three groups ahead of us were all cart riders but apparently that fact was lost on our two visitors.

Preconceptions abound, unfortunately.

[John Kavanaugh]

You will never win this argument if you create the illusion that it is all about money.  I get the distinct impression that many or most of you would be against a policy that everyone plays for free regardless if they walk, ride, cadet or trolley.  You seem to feel a need to pay less than cart riders.

[Brent Hutto]

John,

I'm just a very self-centered trunk slammer. All I care about is being able to show up and play golf in my accustomed manner (walking, usually with a push cart) and how much my bill is at the end of the month. I couldn't care less about what someone else does or doesn't pay to use or not use a riding cart.

I eat lunch in the dining room but don't drink so similarly, I care about the quality of the food and how much I'm billed for it but am not really concerned about the selection of single malts or how much the bartender charges another member for his beer.

It's actually fine with me to get billed an extra $30 this month to cover my "walking fee" for ten rounds of golf. I figure that's one little disincentive for some genius on the Board of Directors to start pitching one of those mandatory riding cart at prime time policies.

[Carl Johnson]

My club has two rules that I hate.  The first is a complete ban on push carts.  I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts.  I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.

The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride.  I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good).  The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.

For the record, my North Carolina private club allows push carts, pull carts, and power caddies (and, of course, carrying your own bag).  You use your own -- not the club's.  The club will store for you for $10/month.  Riding carts are required only Sat. a.m., ostensibly for pace of play purposes.  If on account of fairway conditions Sat. a.m. riding carts are restricted to paved riding cart paths, then the mandatory riding cart rule is waived.  We do not have a caddy program.  There is never an extra charge for walking, using your own push, pull or otherwise.  Dues cover golf -- all aspects, except for an extra charge for a riding cart.  All of which seems quite reasonable to me.

Do you agree with the pace-of-play justification for the riding requirement on Saturday mornings--and do you agree that that's a reasonable rule?

Carl Nichols - personally I don't think riding helps pace of play at our course.  I don't know what data the club has on this - I doubt any.  It seems reasonable on its face, but my anecdotal experience as a golfer who mostly walks (except Sat. a.m.) says it is not a sound policy justification.  Walkers, as dedicated golfers, are generally fast players, in my experience.  However, at this stage in my club membership it's not something I care that much about.  Up until a few years ago we required carts at more times, but I forget the details.  So, we are moving in the right direction.  Also, I should have said that Sat. a.m. riding requirement only applies during daylight savings time.  Carl Johnson

[Carl Johnson]

You will never win this argument if you create the illusion that it is all about money.  I get the distinct impression that many or most of you would be against a policy that everyone plays for free regardless if they walk, ride, cadet or trolley.  You seem to feel a need to pay less than cart riders.

Not quite sure I get your point, exactly, but here's my view:  I belong to a golf club.  I joined to have a place to play golf.  I paid an initiation fee and pay monthly dues.  That's so I can play golf.  Golf is a walking game.  I regard carts as an extra, it's an expense over and above what's necessary (except for medical issues) to play golf.  Therefore, if we have carts, which we do, then those who choose to use them should pay for them - to cover the cost - not to provide the club with a "profit."  Having said that, a club could adopt a business model that accepts riding carts as part of the normal game, and structures basic dues to cover the cost of carts for those who wish to ride.  I wouldn't want to join such a club, but it could be a viable business model.

[Paul Gray]

On behalf of every golfer in Britain, thanks for this excellent comedy thread. 

[Carl Johnson]

On behalf of every golfer in Britain, thanks for this excellent comedy thread.  

And to all of you Brits, (on behalf of myself) you are very welcome.  

[Brent Hutto]

Paul,

I hope you're over 60 so you don't have to be around in 20 years when the riding-cart culture takes over British golf. It's coming and there isn't a thing you can do to stop it.

[Ronald Montesano]

I watched the New Era Junior Championship this week at River Oaks on Grand Island, NY (8.2 minutes from mi casa.)

Among the girls, I'd say 90% used push carts. Among the boys, probably 35%.

What that tells me is, that group will have fewer back issues in 20 years if they keep pushing.

Unless a club has a caddy program and well-heeled members, push carts should never be a negative/prohibited.

[Jud_T]

I still don't get this thread.

[BCowan]

Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now.  We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board.  Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them.  The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average.  We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men.  We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas.  The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.

Thanks

[Carl Johnson]

Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now.  We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board.  Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them.  The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average.  We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men.  We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas.  The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.

Thanks

Come August I'll have been a member of my walking-friendly club for 20 years.  We have no caddie program and the course is walkable (tees close to greens, although hilly).  In my experience there's never been a political or stigma problem with the walking culture at the club.  Maybe I'm just "out of it," but that's my sense.  Keep in mind that my club is a golf club -- not a typical full scale American country club.

[Paul Gray]

Paul,

I hope you're over 60 so you don't have to be around in 20 years when the riding-cart culture takes over British golf. It's coming and there isn't a thing you can do to stop it.

I say this with a huge slice of optimism but I'm genuinely of the opinion that the buggy, as we call carts over here, is already becoming a little passe. Certainly I won't be too surprised if I'm wrong as convenience culture does tend to arrive later in Britain but, over all, there are signs already that using a buggy is an insult to ones manliness. Great for the elderly and I'll be happy to get in one when my legs pack up but by then I'll hopefully have stopped pretending to myself that I can actually play the game a little.

[Josh Stevens]

So where did this apparent Muni stigma come from?  Royal Melbourne and Sunningdale seem to manage with the shame ok

[BHoover]

I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.

[BCowan]

Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now.  We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board.  Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them.  The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average.  We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men.  We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas.  The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.

Thanks

Come August I'll have been a member of my walking-friendly club for 20 years.  We have no caddie program and the course is walkable (tees close to greens, although hilly).  In my experience there's never been a political or stigma problem with the walking culture at the club.  Maybe I'm just "out of it," but that's my sense.  Keep in mind that my club is a golf club -- not a typical full scale American country club.

Carl, I was just reposting the initial post to help Mr Tigerman out with understanding what the thread was about.  You have good taste and make very good sense.  You are ''in the know''..

[John Kavanaugh]

I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.

So if your club adopted a policy where all golfers could either walk or ride for no additional costs you would resign?

[BHoover]

I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.

So if your club adopted a policy where all golfers could either walk or ride for no additional costs you would resign?

No I would not. If the policy allows for choice, why would I resign? I'm opposed to mandatory means of conveyance--be it cart, caddie, trolley, Segway, skateboard, etc.

[Bill Gayne]

At my club it's walk with no additional charge (carry or walk with your own trolley), use a trolley that belongs to the club for $4, or ride for $16. I'm guessing 80% of the rounds are walking or trolley.

[John Kavanaugh]

You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use.  My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.