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Dan Byrnes

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2014, 07:55:59 PM »
Members demanded them at my club and were willing to have higher dues to make up for the lost cart revenue.  Members being more active by walking may extend their membership length?

Don't see them as a big deal.  Membership demographics don't support use of caddies which would be preferred.  No club within an hour plus has any significant caddy program or Caddies at all that I am aware of.

They are member owned with a couple club owned ones for guests or fill in.  Club Storage for them is in addition to the bag but the staff sets your bag up on your cart.

Dan

BHoover

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #126 on: February 20, 2014, 08:09:17 PM »
As I stated in a prior post, I'm not personally a fan of push carts. But I think they ought to be an option, if the membership wants them. Ultimately it's up to the members whether to allow them, and to prospective members whether to join based on club policies.

That said, does it make sense to charge members using push carts (or carrying) to make up for lost cart revenue? Why should a club count on cart revenue as part of it's bottomline? It doesn't seem economically feasible for a club to depend on cart revenues to break even. I know I'm dreaming here, but I think that the point should be to reduce costs and make membership more affordable if the goal of most clubs is to survive.

Also, maybe I'm cheap for not wanting to pay a few extra $$ to cover lost cart revenue, but so be it. Maybe most members at high-end clubs in NYC or Chicago or LA have no problem dropping a few thousand in addition to $20K+ in ordinary dues. But that's not the reality in most markets around the country (and certainly not overseas). The key to survival is to reduce costs and make club membership more attractive to families, and that's not going to happen by limiting options and driving up costs.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2014, 08:11:27 PM »
'' Members being more active by walking may extend their membership length?''

Makes sense to me.  Dan, have you been able to attract new members since allowing them, and do people in the area know you allow them now?  Thanks for your post.  What City/State?

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2014, 08:13:33 PM »
Brian

   I agree with you 100%!

Dan Byrnes

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2014, 08:39:02 PM »
'' Members being more active by walking may extend their membership length?''

Makes sense to me.  Dan, have you been able to attract new members since allowing them, and do people in the area know you allow them now?  Thanks for your post.  What City/State?

This was done many years ago.  One of the early adopters.  Also the club was at the lower end of local privates at the time.  The lower end clubs adopted earlier than others.  Don't think it ever really helped in membership growth but maybe one or two.

Interestingly when my club went semi private and there was a mass exodus of its members to another local private club which at the time had a small, club owned rental fleet.  The use of  member owned carts and storage was one if not the biggest issue that was created.  The incoming members demanded that they could use and store their carts with no trail fee or additional expense outside of storage.  It took the new club time to adapt to providing the service and build the additional storage needed to accommodate the significant growth.  I think the new clubs handling of this issue was a key factor in melding the two clubs together.

It would be interesting to know how much if any of the original members of the "new" club that have adopted the use of the member owned push cart?

With my club now being semi private push cart use is way down due  to a riding cart being included for non members in the daily rate. 

Over half of the local clubs now allow them.  A few clubs have a fleet and you rent them, the majority that allow use have member owned ones.  A couple of hold outs are still having the discussion.

Biggest issue for my club at the time was the ability to store the carts in addition to bags for the members.  One of the clubs were members carts are the norm had to install a new storage solution while another had to add additional storage to meet the demand.

Upstate NY, Albany Area.

Dan

Lou_Duran

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2014, 11:54:24 PM »
The implication that our policy is somehow being imposed (and that is clearly what you implied) does not reflect the views of our membership which I know very well.  I suppose I might ask how you would vote but as you are not a member, that would hardly be fair.  Finally, I have no problem letting the marketplace speak.  Those who do not want a club with these policies should find one that suits their preferences. But don't assume that because a club adopts policies that are contrary to those espoused by outsiders, the club must be subject to the whims  or dictates of a minority.  That doesn't describe our club or, I might add, many others in our area that have similar policies.

I was not implying anything nor am I  attempting to tell you or your club what to do.  I am not familiar with the membership nor the identity of your club.  We have broached this subject before and as you did on this thread, you presented your club's position on caddies which appears to be, if I may paraphrase, if you want to walk and a caddie is available, a caddie is required.  I was just curious whether you would allow this policy to come up for a vote and live with the consequences.  After your reply, I am no longer interested.

You seem to imply in your reply that the mandatory caddie use when walking policy enjoys majority support at your club.   So, had I joined your club knowing how important and set-in-stone this policy was, I would have no issue.  In reality, I would not have even looked at your club just as I am sure your club would not have had any interest in me as a member.

Personally, I prefer clubs and organizations with few rules for reasonable people with common interests and relatively few affectations.  Others may think that requiring a caddie or a motorized cart is very sensible.   Golf is a big world.  I did find it amusing learning from an unimpeachable source that not a small number of members of a Top 10 club with a mandatory caddie policy wait until the caddies are gone in the mid-afternoon before they venture out to the course.  It just seems that life would be much simpler and enjoyable if people did their thing and were willing to incur the full cost of their preferences.

And what business is it of yours or mine or anyone elses what that club or its members do? Yes, as noted, if I had the means and opportunity, I'd be proud to be a member of SL's club and to support that program; if someone else wouldn't, there are plenty of other places to play/become a member at. What would a secret ballot of members 'prove'? And why should the club/members prove anything to us outsiders? (Hey, why don't we ask Augusta National leadership if they'd be willing to hold a secret poll to determine if members want to automatically contribute to absurdly high maintenance practices for the sake of the tv exposure one week a year? My point: I grow tired of the notion that excess and selfishness and exclusivity and greed are all rights to be protected, while our impulses towards serving a broader good need to be carefully scrutinized lest we prove ourselves dictators). It's a free market, right?  

I normally don't address "stuff" like this, but I'll try this one time.  What I would like to write I can't without offending you and many others who think like you, so I will just limit it to a couple of things.

First of all, what SL's club does is but of mild interest to me and I have absolutely nothing riding on how it conducts its affairs..  He brought it up as he has other times before, noting the great cause it serves (ESP).  Being that you are much more impressed, perhaps even enamored with SL, his perspectives, and his way of expressing himself on this DG than I am, I understand and will countenance your tone.

Second, and most important, the point of a secret ballot is that people often act very differently when cloaked in anonymity than in the presence of pressure groups (the social psychology literature is a treasure trove on this stuff if you want to check it out).  The reason why labor unions are so much for card check is precisely that it puts them in much greater control of the process.  Ditto for the insistence on posting on this site under your proper name.  The results of a secret ballot are likely to be different and much more representative of what members believe than an expression of support or a show of hands in front of influential board and committee members which drive many important decisions.  SL offers that he knows his membership well and that the mandatory-caddies-if-walking policy enjoys majority support at his club, and I accept that (though for my own amusement, I wouldn't mind seeing him test it).

As to your weariness, well, I could suggest some help, but you really don't want to hear what I have to offer.  You like citations and references to smart people.  It was likely an unknown simple person who once passed on to me a great piece of advice: happiness comes from within.  Another one: when you point the finger at someone (the selfish, the greedy, the ones who value exclusivity), three fingers are pointing back at you.  BTW, who was it that said life was like a box of chocolates?  Good stuff!   ;)

For the record, I like walking, push carts, the occasional riding cart, and the opportunity to choose my means.  In the Dallas area at least, push carts are gaining greater acceptance, even though a number of clubs have their own fleet and require that you rent them.  
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 12:01:10 AM by Lou_Duran »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #131 on: February 21, 2014, 11:00:21 AM »
Lou - I half regretted my post because of its testiness. Nonetheless, I'll ignore your long post and your whole rash of assumptions and insinuations about me, because as you suggest there'd be no point in our trying to have a discussion. I'll only note this: yours was the only post in this thread that didn't stick to discussing/arguing the pros and cons of the subject at hand, but instead choose to question the motives, integrity and character of another poster, and none of it directly but by snide implication instead. (Your rhetorical 'musings' meant little else.) For me, THAT'S the bottom line; and for the purposes of a discussion board about gca, that bottom line is all I need to know. Btw, I've never met SL, never met anyone on this site in fact save for Joe Hancock. Yes, there are some that - from their posts - I tend to like more than others. So let's agree - I'll completely ignore you and your posts from here on in, and you can completely ignore mine.

Peter

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2014, 11:26:08 AM »
  ''In the Dallas area at least, push carts are gaining greater acceptance, even though a number of clubs have their own fleet and require that you rent them.''

  Okay guys lets bring it back to the subject.  This is good news for the most part.  Wish the clubs didn't make you rent their trolleys.  Lou tell us about the Dallas market.  I do want to say that I support the Evans very much so, and hope more programs like it come about.  Even courses that no longer have caddies still give money to it through dues, which is great!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2014, 01:07:51 PM »
For Christ's sake Peter, you can't even do what you said in your second sentence.  Unlike you, I have met SL Solow, and though I don't claim to know him, I do read his posts carefully and have a good understanding of where he is coming from.  If he or you wish to believe that I was questioning his motives, integrity, or character, you're free to hold such fantasies.  I repeat, I did not.  Though I'd rather be liked than not, it is not my purpose in participating on this DG- the only interactive internet activity I participate in- to build a group of admirers or to gain access to the best golf courses.  I am interested in a variety of golf related matters and when I see something I care to comment on, I do so.

How we enjoy our golf is very personal.  I don't feel I have the right to tell anyone how they should play, whether they prefer riding, carrying, taking a caddie, or pushing a cart.  If I was a member of club holding a referendum on which things should be required, I'd be voting in favor of very few not already covered in the etiquette of golf.

At the same time, if a club wishes to enact a mandatory policy, it is its prerogative as it is mine to either accept its terms or play elsewhere.  I had a very painful separation from a club of over 20 years because one day it decided that golfers playing before noon on weekends and holidays were required to take and pay for a cart (later it was changed to just pay, though I was about the only taker of their generosity).  To the management's credit, it made no bones about it, it was all about revenues.

I am not questioning SL's representation that his club's membership widely supports its policy making it mandatory to take a caddie when walking, though a skeptic might wonder why, if it is so popular, must it be "required".  In my part of the world, it would be nearly impossible to establish a club where the majority of members would impose on themselves mandatory caddies with similar conditions.  Chicago has a much longer tradition in the game and I can see where such a membership is possible.
  
But by all means, do ignore my posts.  I believe I expressed similar sentiments to SL in the past.  Alas, I lack discipline.  Your view of the world appears to be well set, so it makes great sense from a time management standpoint.  Believe me that I too am selective on the subjects and posters I give my time of day.


BCowan,

Thanks for your attempt at making peace.  The good folks of Texas are extremely generous and contributing to good causes has been an important part of life from the first days.  I too would rather use my own Clicgear, but I understand the need for revenues and to maintain an image (a uniform fleet of well-maintained carts).  Along with better water management and environmental focus, these are important baby steps.

One thing I wish I could impact is course setup.  Most superintendents seem to have misunderstood the "Play It Forward" initiative and they are basically pushing the tees up 200+ yards without changing the course ratings.  It's a killer for handicap competitions against players from more serious clubs.  If you really have specific questions about the market, I can probably get good answers.



  

SL_Solow

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #134 on: February 21, 2014, 01:37:16 PM »
Lou;   I had intended to withdraw from this discussion, having staked out my position.  However the recent exchanges, which in all fairness were largely instituted by Peter, compel me to make a few brief comments.

First, I remember our meeting at the Glen Club.  I enjoyed the conversation and I suspect I would enjoy a round of golf together.  If you get back to Chicago, let me know.  However, your suggestion that your initial post did not reflect an undertone of disparagement and disbelief is more than a little disingenuous.  Its not that I mind anyone disagreeing with me; after all I make a living taking sides in disputes.  I just prefer to be up front about it.  Moreover, the mere fact that I disagree with someone on issues, be they political, economic or even golf related does not disqualify them from being my friends.  I have had ongoing disputes with some friends and mentors for more than 50 years.

But even your most recent post reflects your incredulity with your references to members at other clubs who play after mandatory times or your suggestion that if our policy had such wide support we wouldn't need it.  So let"s be honest with each other.  I don't claim that any policy at our club enjoys 100% support but I know that the vast majority favor this approach.  Our club is also one that recognizes human nature and realizes that notwithstanding this support, when faced with a chance to save a few bucks, some will ignore their "better natures".  Eventually this will erode the program as fewer loops will lead to fewer caddies.  So we have decided that a rule is appropriate.  Its not a matter of snobbery, I assure you, but a recognition that we think the program is worth preserving for all the reasons previously enumerated.  As noted, prospective members are informed of the policy and any member can seek a referendum to change any rule.

But, there are not many rules at our club; it is a pretty laid back place as those who have visited from the board will attest.  I hope some day I can host you.  We can talk politics, economics and golf course architecture between shots and after golf.  With luck, you'll have your bag carried by one of our Evans or Briarwood Scholars.  It would be a good day.

SL_Solow

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2014, 03:45:41 PM »
Lou, one other point, this one far more related to golf.  Your club should contact the local golf association that handles course ratings in Dallas.  The USGA guidelines provide for different ratings from different tees.  Since distance is the largest single component in the course rating formula, you are absolutely correct that those posting scores from "play it  forward" tees are getting hammered on handicaps when they travel unless the rating is reduced to reflect the shorter yardage.  We conduct these types of ratings at the CDGA on a regular basis.  Your association should do so as well.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #136 on: February 21, 2014, 05:04:45 PM »
. . .
One thing I wish I could impact is course setup.  Most superintendents seem to have misunderstood the "Play It Forward" initiative and they are basically pushing the tees up 200+ yards without changing the course ratings.  It's a killer for handicap competitions against players from more serious clubs.  If you really have specific questions about the market, I can probably get good answers.  

Lou - Not sure how this got into a trolleys/push carts thread, but let me ask this about "playing it forward" and course ratings.  My understanding is that courses are rated and sloped separately for each tee, so as long as the slopes and ratings are properly (as can be) done for each set of tees, and handicaps adjusted accordingly for play from said tees, playing it forward should not, in theory, make any difference in competitiveness.  So, are you saying that the "supers" will, say, move the whites a notch closer, to where the reds normally are, yet play competitions off ratings and slopes for the white tees?  A different question - should not an appropriate club committee be making tee decisions for competitions, and instructing the supers where to set the tees?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 05:06:41 PM by Carl Johnson »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2014, 05:20:52 PM »
However, your suggestion that your initial post did not reflect an undertone of disparagement and disbelief is more than a little disingenuous.  Its not that I mind anyone disagreeing with me; after all I make a living taking sides in disputes.  I just prefer to be up front about it.

Admittedly, English is not my first language and I have had little formal training in communications.  I have been blessed, however, with the ability to figure things out on the fly and to assimilate information easily.  I do know that often how the message is received is more important than what it contains.  Here again is what I wrote initially:

I wonder if Mr. Solow, if he had the power to do so, would allow a simple secret ballot on this one question at his club AND live with the results?

Preface:

"Members of the various committees and boards of the club believe that the use of caddies is important for a variety of reasons including the support of the Evans Scholarship Program.  We believe that without the use of caddies being mandatory, the club's support for the program will be greatly diminished, possibly leading to the demise of the program."

Question:

"Yes or no, should members and their guests be required to use and pay for a caddie when they play golf at the club?"   

 
I can see how you might perceive disbelief in the above, but disparagement?  Might you be allowing our past disagreements not the least of which is our very different political ideology to seep in ascribing ill motives?   And what set your pal off to accuse me of impugning your character and integrity?  I simply wanted to know if you would be willing to have a referendum- some folks believe that since a rather small number of members are willing to get heavily involved in club matters, it is not a democratic process and the major decisions should fall on them.  I am satisfied with your reply.

But even your most recent post reflects your incredulity with your references to members at other clubs who play after mandatory times or your suggestion that if our policy had such wide support we wouldn't need it.  So let"s be honest with each other.  I don't claim that any policy at our club enjoys 100% support but I know that the vast majority favor this approach.  Our club is also one that recognizes human nature and realizes that notwithstanding this support, when faced with a chance to save a few bucks, some will ignore their "better natures".  Eventually this will erode the program as fewer loops will lead to fewer caddies.  So we have decided that a rule is appropriate.  Its not a matter of snobbery, I assure you, but a recognition that we think the program is worth preserving for all the reasons previously enumerated.  As noted, prospective members are informed of the policy and any member can seek a referendum to change any rule.

Again, the experience that you describe at your club is not one I am familiar with.  I do not doubt that what you believe and present here is true, though I think it is probably exceptional (admittedly, I am not very familiar with the old east coast clubs).  My reference to the Top 10 club supports the second part of your last statement about their 'better natures'.  Your system appears to work to your club's satisfaction.  I would probably prefer one that achieves similar results without being "mandatory" or peer pressured.  And that's about as honest as I can get.

I do appreciate your kind offer to play.  I am in the sunset of my golfing life and there are so many places I have yet to see.  I am fortunate to have played quite a few courses in the Chicago area and I am a big fan.  Perhaps one day.

Thanks also for the suggestion on getting the Texas Golf Association involved in rating some new tees.  The problem is not so much that there are not four or five sets of tees already rated at most courses.  It is that the maintenance staff sets up the tees with no rhyme or reason other than to move more than half of them to the front end of the tee boxes, sometimes as much as half way in front of the plate for the next set of tees.  Seldom do I see any of the tees behind the plates.  While this practice seems to be more common at daily fee facilities during the weekend (ostensibly to speed up play), my home course does it pretty much all six days each week (though the back tees seem to be less variable).       

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #138 on: February 21, 2014, 05:32:32 PM »
Lou;  Thanks for the reasoned response.  Be assured from my end that any political differences we may have are simply that,political differences.  They make no difference in my analysis of any individual issue.  As an aside, my favorite Professor of all time at any level was a gentleman who I met in 1970.  We became fast friends and I was fortunate that before he retired, he also taught and mentored my son.  Politically we are at very different points on the spectrum.  But ever since we became acquainted, we enjoyed the exchange of ideas  and shared other interests.  That continues today.  So while you and I may disagree, from my end it will always be substantive and issue specific.  Who knows, from time to time we may agree!

As for the course set up issue, I now have a better understanding.  You must have some pretty long tees although a change of 10 yards on every hole could add up.  Perhaps a conversation with your pro and super might help.  Alternatively, a new set of plates near the front of the tees which gets rated?  Tee it forward was really conceived as a way to get folks to move up one set of tees to a length they could handle, not as an excuse to push tees forward which might lessen the experience for one playing the appropriate markers.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 05:46:21 PM by SL_Solow »

Lou_Duran

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #139 on: February 21, 2014, 05:35:46 PM »
My understanding is that courses are rated and sloped separately for each tee, so as long as the slopes and ratings are properly (as can be) done for each set of tees, and handicaps adjusted accordingly for play from said tees, playing it forward should not, in theory, make any difference in competitiveness.  So, are you saying that the "supers" will, say, move the whites a notch closer, to where the reds normally are, yet play competitions off ratings and slopes for the white tees?  A different question - should not an appropriate club committee be making tee decisions for competitions, and instructing the supers where to set the tees?

I don't play much competitive golf any more, so what I am talking about is normal daily play.  As I noted in my comments to SL, the process seems to be haphazard and it would be difficult to get an accurate course/slope rating because the tees are all over the place, though nearly always shorter.  When I was playing tournament golf, only the club championships and city and regional tournaments seemed to have course set ups that were thoughtfully planned.  In the several clubs I've been a member of over the last 40+ years, the relationships between the pro shop and the maintenance staff were arms-length at best and often testy.  At a couple places, it was non-existent (I have never belonged to a member-owned club).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 05:57:58 PM by Lou_Duran »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #140 on: February 21, 2014, 11:54:55 PM »
Lou,

How many strokes do you need?  You are already pushing against double digits. Last I checked you were a 6.3 index. Do they not offer gratis lessons in Texas? 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #141 on: February 22, 2014, 11:49:42 AM »
Lou,

How many strokes do you need?  You are already pushing against double digits. Last I checked you were a 6.3 index. Do they not offer gratis lessons in Texas? 

Mine was mostly a general gripe.  I play in very few competitions anymore and I keep my handicap more as a means to document my inevitable decline (I also weigh myself and test my blood when I wake up each morning, other mostly losing battles, but something I highly recommend).  BTW, with my last two scores, the index is now 7.1 (I am wiping out some better rounds from last Oct. and Nov. before I took off the better part of two months).  My goal is to be an 8 by the 5th Major in case I have to go up against you and a 4 by the Buda.

I had several lessons in 2013 from Nathan at my home club which were helpful.  What I really need is golf-related conditioning which I have been meaning to do for years, but can't seem to overcome my inertia.

You must have some pretty long tees although a change of 10 yards on every hole could add up.  Perhaps a conversation with your pro and super might help.  Alternatively, a new set of plates near the front of the tees which gets rated?  Tee it forward was really conceived as a way to get folks to move up one set of tees to a length they could handle, not as an excuse to push tees forward which might lessen the experience for one playing the appropriate markers.

Some courses do have very long tees- 4+ club difference.  Others like my home club have a combination of irregularly shaped, long, medium, and small teeing areas set at varying angles.  The supt. and his asst. are very capable, but being that it is a non-equity private club where the owner has a fairly strict firewall between herself and the members, they communicate primarily through formal club newsletters and emails.  I have resigned effective the end of this month, so it is not worth pursuing further.  It could also be that the membership may not share in my concern- probably because I never play in high stake games, I've come across far more golfers who value a vanity handicap than those who fudge to gain a competitive advantage; what's losing $25-$50 if one is perceived to be a "stick"?

I think that the Play It Forward initiative gives some operators cover to misapply it, when what they're really trying to do is get golfers around the course faster and with better scores, without having to put much effort into it.  While I have no issue with golf design which makes the course appear harder than it plays, I do with what I am describing.  Guys I often play with will go up to whatever set of tees they normally play without giving it a second thought.  If a tee is way up, particularly if it seems to be done often and provided that I am disrupting play, I will go back to the plate of the proper tee and hit from there.  No doubt that some of the folks think it is weird, but I am OK with that.  Admittedly, with all the many things ailing golf today, this one is a very minor one, but one that has my craw nonetheless.

To bring it back to the subject, about the only thing I can think of that's bad about push carts other than reducing the source of revenues to the club is that they can sometimes clutter around the clubhouse.  This may not be a problem with clubs which do a lot of volume on riding carts and already have staging areas, but I have seen a couple places where 30-40 push carts in heavily traveled areas seemed to be creating some flow issues.     

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #142 on: February 22, 2014, 05:31:13 PM »
I think that the Play It Forward initiative gives some operators cover to misapply it, when what they're really trying to do is get golfers around the course faster and with better scores, without having to put much effort into it.  While I have no issue with golf design which makes the course appear harder than it plays, I do with what I am describing.  Guys I often play with will go up to whatever set of tees they normally play without giving it a second thought.  If a tee is way up, particularly if it seems to be done often and provided that I am disrupting play, I will go back to the plate of the proper tee and hit from there.  No doubt that some of the folks think it is weird, but I am OK with that.  Admittedly, with all the many things ailing golf today, this one is a very minor one, but one that has my craw nonetheless.

The USGA handicap system has a simple way to deal with this problem.  (FWIW, I don't think it has anything to do with Play It Forward, as daily-fee and resort courses have been doing this for years.  Just last week I played Longbow GC in Mesa AZ and as usual it played much shorter than the card on several holes.)

The solution can be found here:



It's not hard to make a note on the card of holes that are played off the shorter tee, just circle the yardage it played from, add up the difference and use the chart.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2014, 07:06:52 PM »
Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now.  We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board.  Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them.  The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average.  We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men.  We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas.  The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires.

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable. 


This was emailed to me and came from some magazine.  Happy to see that someone had the sense to print this.

David_Tepper

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2014, 07:26:35 PM »
BCowan -

Thanks for posting that article.

I am sure I have posted this earlier on this thread, but just as a reminder, clubs that offer 3-wheel pushcarts/trolleys in Northern California include:

- California Golf Club
- Lake Merced
- Monterey Peninsula
- Sonoma GC
- Olympic Club (Ocean Course)

DT

BHoover

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2014, 07:36:34 PM »
My home course allows the use of push/pull carts with the caveat that they must be rented from the pro shop for a small fee. I don't know the specifics on how the policy was approved because it was adopted well before I joined. I do know that it seems fairly popular. Most golfers either carry or ride but a fair number rent the either pushcarts (Sun Mountain) or pullcarts (the wide-wheeled rickshaw variety).


Josh Stevens

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2014, 08:15:05 PM »
I will never cease to find these arguments not only hilarious, but an interesting cultural contrast.  I simply don't get why there is even a debate.  Buggies (as we call push carts) are the standard, it is the these silly ride on carts that are the subject of disdain and ridicule.

Amazing how the US always finds a way look at an issue from a whole new perspective.  Never dull

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2014, 08:20:49 PM »
Josh.  Many os us in the USA don't understand it either

Josh Stevens

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2014, 08:38:47 PM »
Although I confess there may be a regulatory issue in play in Australia - we are as fat and lazy as you.

At Australian private clubs, social golf is the minority, the vast bulk of rounds are in competition which in turn are used for national handicapping purposes.  In the interests of equity and fairness then it is usual (at least at the proper clubs - cant speak for those semi resort things) that riding in a cart is only permitted if you can provide a medical certificate from a specialist outlining why you are unable to walk.  As my track is quite hilly,on a warm day, riding would be a huge advantage and so is not permitted unless you are on deaths door.

Socially its different and you can do as you please


Carl Nichols

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2014, 02:57:21 PM »
My club has two rules that I hate.  The first is a complete ban on push carts.  I have made various arguments against the stigma associated with them, but more concretely have proposed a trial run, whereby the club would purchase a limited number (say 5) and allow only those 5 push carts to be used--with a fee to recoup the costs of the carts.  I'm optimistic we'll at least take that step.

The second rule, which I haven't started agitating against yet, is that while walking is permitted at all times, on weekends and holidays we charge walkers who carry their own bags the same fee as if they were to ride.  I haven't talked to anyone yet about the reasons for the rule, but I'm pretty sure its primary purpose was/is revenue generation, though it also serves to ensure we have some caddies around [by reducing the number of people who walk and carry]--and I suspect some would argue it helps our pace of play (which is very good).  The effect, unfortunately, is that the strong majority of rounds played on weekend mornings are by riders.

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