[Tim Martin]

Not all of us are small business owners who set our own schedules Ben. I had to work. I also couldn't quite get through when I first clicked on it. Reading these stories of tyranny and oppression about selfish course operations that allow fivesomes and forcibly coerce players to ride in carts is really difficult and emotional. The Thomas Aquinas meme was just a stupid joke. I'm sure he's smiling down on you. Are you Catholic? I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move. I have a late uncle who was a priest and a great aunt who's a nun, and I'm a big fan of the work of Aquinas and All Saints. "Never Ever" was a great song.

Have you thought about the $40 monthly cart charge to all members as a possible way to grow walking golf? In my experience, John Kavanaugh is right - walkers are cheap and often perceived thusly by riders. I say that as an avid walker myself who is also deplorably cheap. Like John, I have Irish blood. If a club charges all members a monthly fee for unlimited cart use, and many members continue to walk, doesn't that legitimize walking as a way to enjoy the game instead of just a way to save a few bucks? It also removes the stigma that walkers are freeloaders who don't pay their full share to the club and whose memberships are subsidized by more free-spending members.

The club that is bumping the monthly fee obviously needs increased cash flow but has instituted a plan whereby there is "value added" in that the member can ride any time he chooses. Anyone that believes that cart usage won't increase based on this model is living in a fantasy world. "I usually walk but it's pretty hot today, I usually walk but I just had a Denny's Grand Slam breakfast, I usually walk but I have to cut my lawn later" ad infinitum. If you have always walked and continue to do so even after the new policy is put in place and you feel that some perceived stigma is removed than that is a sad commentary. If you are a supporter and enjoy the club then this has to be more palatable than a "trail fee" or just a flat dues increase no?

[Jason Thurman]

Clubs that are set up a limited play allow 5+ somes for they are limited play clubs and totally different than traditional golf clubs and CC's.  Don't get emotion Jason, that doesn't help anyone!  Maybe if you could have a different outlook you could see a differently.

Thanks. I try not to. It's just the oppression that gets me. When I think about all the middle and upper class Americans suffering in carts or paying a caddie instead of using their push trolley, it just makes me sick to my stomach. What would Thomas Jefferson say?

I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move.Not surprised you but down southerns.

i don't perceive walkers as cheap and my definition of cheap is different then yours

It sounds like we also have different definitions of self-awareness. Cheap is as cheap does.

that $40 could be the straw that breaks the camels back and also prevents people from joining a private club?

The subprime mortgage crisis taught me that anything that encourages people to spend within their means and live more responsibly is probably a good thing. Sometimes that means allowing the market to keep things unaffordable. Anything else is socialism. I see you choose red font for your replies, and I know you don't believe in the free market, but I'm a big fan of individual freedom including the freedom of businesses to set prices as appropriate. No one should join a golf club if it stretches them within $40 of breaking their monthly budget.

You use words like ''fair share'', not surprised you used that!

Regardless of the accuracy of the quote you've attributed here, do you not see a difference between asking a 10% of the population that already pays 90% of the nation's taxes to pay even more and asking a group that pays a small percentage of the revenue at their golf club to contribute an equal amount to other members who use the same club? If you can't, then it's appropriate that your club is a muni. Your lack of contextual understanding here is shocking. You're using Hannity Buzzwords like Fair Share! while clamoring for the 1%-ers to keep funding your subsidized membership. You're the first Tea Party Conservative ever to join the Occupy movement. This is historic.

Back in the day many head pros gave lessons morning till night and then managed the grill!

That sounds unsanitary.

They are in the best financial state than all the other clubs in the area.  The club i play at now has a waiting list.  So I think your ''subsidizing'' stigma is what is wrong with Golf in the US.

I'm sure your club is in a wonderful financial state, seeing as how your dues are subsidized by the dues of cart-buyers who contribute more capital than is their fair share, and their dues are in turn subsidized by a university that is in turn subsidized by taxpayers.

''It costs 10 times more to play golf in the US and most courses are in the red, have we not learned anything from where the game originated''-Perry Maxwell shortened quote.  Wow the foresight!

I think you're giving too much credit to Maxwell. No one born in Kentucky is very smart. Didn't he do a semester at the University of Kentucky too? Trust me, no one who attended that university should ever be taken seriously.

[BCowan]

Clubs that are set up a limited play allow 5+ somes for they are limited play clubs and totally different than traditional golf clubs and CC's.  Don't get emotion Jason, that doesn't help anyone!  Maybe if you could have a different outlook you could see a differently.

Thanks. I try not to. It's just the oppression that gets me. When I think about all the middle and upper class Americans suffering in carts or paying a caddie instead of using their push trolley, it just makes me sick to my stomach. What would Thomas Jefferson say?
Your stretching of oppression is priceless, you are good at spinning things.  Jefferson would think little of you.

I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move.Not surprised you but down southerns.

'''put'', typical elitist mindset

i don't perceive walkers as cheap and my definition of cheap is different then yours

It sounds like we also have different definitions of self-awareness. Cheap is as cheap does.Cheap is when you take a caddie and don't tip them well, when you can't afford a caddie all the time when you play golf that is living within your means!

that $40 could be the straw that breaks the camels back and also prevents people from joining a private club?

The subprime mortgage crisis taught me that anything that encourages people to spend within their means and live more responsibly is probably a good thing. Sometimes that means allowing the market to keep things unaffordable. Anything else is socialism. I see you choose red font for your replies, and I know you don't believe in the free market, but I'm a big fan of individual freedom including the freedom of businesses to set prices as appropriate. No one should join a golf club if it stretches them within $40 of breaking their monthly budget.You obviously don't know the whole story with the 08' collapse.  The market was propped up for houses and artificially increased their values with cheap artificial interest rates!  The market keeps prices down, you have no clue what you are talking about in regards to markets!  I am a huge fan of freedom and free markets.  I never advocated a that a club can't set their prices, just don't yell ''economy'' if members leave or you don't attract new ones!  Oh, how smug of you to think $40 a month is no big deal to subsidize a service that members don't want to use!

You use words like ''fair share'', not surprised you used that!

Regardless of the accuracy of the quote you've attributed here, do you not see a difference between asking a 10% of the population that already pays 90% of the nation's taxes to pay even more and asking a group that pays a small percentage of the revenue at their golf club to contribute an equal amount to other members who use the same club? If you can't, then it's appropriate that your club is a muni. Your lack of contextual understanding here is shocking. You're using Hannity Buzzwords like Fair Share! while clamoring for the 1%-ers to keep funding your subsidized membership. You're the first Tea Party Conservative ever to join the Occupy movement. This is historic.Again it isn't a revenue problem, most private clubs have a spending problem.  Don't you ever call my club a muni you little punk!  Your lack of critical thinking is the problem, you have your head so far up your butt and impressed with what you think you know!  You call people spending $5k a year on dues cheap and non important because they don't spend another $2,000 on carts, that is how dumb you are!

Back in the day many head pros gave lessons morning till night and then managed the grill!

That sounds unsanitary.
Yes, the pro that taught me was an asst under Byron Nelson, they worked their butt off, you couldn't comprehend that way of life!  Your words are unsanitary.

They are in the best financial state than all the other clubs in the area.  The club i play at now has a waiting list.  So I think your ''subsidizing'' stigma is what is wrong with Golf in the US.

I'm sure your club is in a wonderful financial state, seeing as how your dues are subsidized by the dues of cart-buyers who contribute more capital than is their fair share, and their dues are in turn subsidized by a university that is in turn subsidized by taxpayers.
With over 60% of the members walking i find it funny that you think 40% that take carts subsidize the majority, but you do lack common sense.  How did private clubs survive prior to golf carts Jason, that is what you need to figure out?  No, the course i play at gives money back to the University!  The head pro makes all his money teaching ''lessons''!  They also don't lose money trying to host weddings and have a staff to handle all those needs, it is a golf club!

''It costs 10 times more to play golf in the US and most courses are in the red, have we not learned anything from where the game originated''-Perry Maxwell shortened quote.  Wow the foresight!

I think you're giving too much credit to Maxwell. No one born in Kentucky is very smart. Didn't he do a semester at the University of Kentucky too? Trust me, no one who attended that university should ever be taken seriously.Wow, you are smarter than Perry Maxwell, good job.  Did Donald Ross have a degree in LARCH?  Typical response from someone who lacks common sense and critical thinking skills!

[BCowan]

You can add the following clubs from upstate NY that allow push carts:

Oak Hill CC
The Country Club of Rochester
Monroe Golf Club
Crag Burn Club

The only club I can think of that DOESN'T allow them up here is the CC of Buffalo which has a caddie program.

Ekwanok CC in Vermont allows them late afternoon.

I can't imagine a club not allowing them because it doesn't "fit an image." And people wonder why private clubs are struggling and the game is still perceived by many as a stuffy sport.

You make too much sense, and thanks for providing those courses.  By some people's standards on here, they would classify those courses as muni's, lol!

[John Kavanaugh]

I own two trolleys and every course where I am a member allows their use. It's no big deal.

[BCowan]

If the course is a walking course it is to some extent.  You have good taste.  There are a lot of clubs that don't allow them, and if you are in financial trouble limiting potential members isn't a smart idea.  It is not the most important factor, but depending on region it helps.   

[Jeff Shelman]

A club I was previously a member at had unlimited free carts as part of the dues. I still walked a good bit, but it was nice to sometimes walk nine and grab a cart for the back nine in order to finish.

I was probably in the minority. Outside of a smallish subset of members who walked on a regular basis, pretty much everybody rode.

It did impact the condition of the golf course. What would normally be medium traffic areas started to look like higher traffic areas. Higher traffic areas didn't always look good. While people should know better (and people on this site do), many, many golfers drive carts like idiots.

I'm currently a member at a club that allows pushcarts and has a rental pushcart fleet.

[SL_Solow]

The one factor that has not been considered is a club's desire to encourage an active caddy program.  Like many clubs in the greater Chicago area, we are ardent supporters of the Evans Scholar program.  We also have our own Foundation to help employees and/or their children obtain a higher education.  If walking without caddies is an alternative (when caddies are available), we are concerned that it may lead to the eventual demise of the program.  Therefore, we have made a group decision to favor the caddy program by greatly reducing the availability of walking carts.  I would limit the use of riding carts but I can't win that one.  Nonetheless, we provide gainful employment for area youth (and some adults), create goodwill in our community and introduce young people to the game.  We think that its worth the limitation on the use of trolleys and the extra cost.

[BCowan]

The one factor that has not been considered is a club's desire to encourage an active caddy program.Mr. Solow I have caddied at 3 of 5 clubs that have produced Evan's Scholars.  The Gentleman who taught me the game was honored at the OSU Evans lawn.  My Father caddied for my mother and that is how my parents met so I know a little about caddie programs.Like many clubs in the greater Chicago area, we are ardent supporters of the Evans Scholar program. Almost all the Toledo,OH clubs support and produce Evan Scholars (I still play golf and keep in contact with my first caddie master)We also have our own Foundation to help employees and/or their children obtain a higher education. That is great and should be encouraged.  I have talked to Head pros that collect substantial money for caddie scholarships outside of Evans too.
 If walking without caddies is an alternative (when caddies are available), we are concerned that it may lead to the eventual demise of the program.  Barton Hills a very elite course in Ann Arbor has caddies and allows trollies.  Don't know about exact rules though.  I have this conversation with my caddie master from 22 years ago for course across the pond have caddies and allow trollies.  People who can afford caddies are going to take them.  There is some people that either when they retire (people i used to caddie for) that can't afford caddies for they play 70-100 times a year without income coming in.  I have caddied at course that you must take a caddie if you are under 60 years old.  When I was a caddie, a person walking or carrying wasn't my meal ticket, it was the one that took a golf cart.  I would rather that person at 60+ take a trolley then take a cart to save money.  Caddies are expensive, i know I was one.Therefore, we have made a group decision to favor the caddy program by greatly reducing the availability of walking carts. Totally disagree with you, for I know the private Chi-town market is totally different.  There are bad caddies and I would rather them replaced by trolleys than Golf carts! I would limit the use of riding carts but I can't win that one.  Maybe allowing trolleys for 60+ year olds that are retired and no income would be great.  I know elite clubs loath the look of trolleys.Nonetheless, we provide gainful employment for area youth (and some adults), create goodwill in our community and introduce young people to the game.  We think that its worth the limitation on the use of trolleys and the extra cost.People using golf carts are much worse for the game of golf.  I just played golf this past summer with a friend from my high school golf team and a past even's scholar and I have many friend who are scholars or have learned golf through caddying.  90% of people are still going to take caddies, there maybe some that can't afford 50-100 rounds a year with a caddie, less likely in Chi-town.  It comes down to people in the US not liking the look of trolleys, hangups.

[SL_Solow]

Ben;  I appreciate your point of view but disagree.  as for those across the pond, the professional caddy, or even the member caddy is the rule.  Not really a high school summer job.  as for the impact on caddies, our experience throughout the CDGA  more closely comports with my view than with yours.  I agree that some clubs just don't like the "look" but that is no longer the prevailing motivation.

[BCowan]

SL

    I just found out from a friend who is a member of a top club that I used to caddie at.  They are now going from a youth development program to ''Professional'' caddies.  Due to kids growing up with too much these days, parents don't encourage them to work and local caddie programs have gone down hill and some clubs have gone to professional caddies.  A good ''case study'' would be for Medina to allow trolley's and or caddies for under the age of 60.  I would bet that 98% would take a caddie due to having enough discretionary income and for the fear of being labeled ''cheap''.  The Evans program in Ohio and Michigan is very very strong and is not going away.  Lower tier clubs would have caddies on call (that would get Evans) and trolleys.  My mistake for using across the pond.  Barton Hills produces evans scholars annually.   

[Sean_A]

The one factor that has not been considered is a club's desire to encourage an active caddy program.  Like many clubs in the greater Chicago area, we are ardent supporters of the Evans Scholar program.  We also have our own Foundation to help employees and/or their children obtain a higher education.  If walking without caddies is an alternative (when caddies are available), we are concerned that it may lead to the eventual demise of the program.  Therefore, we have made a group decision to favor the caddy program by greatly reducing the availability of walking carts.  I would limit the use of riding carts but I can't win that one.  Nonetheless, we provide gainful employment for area youth (and some adults), create goodwill in our community and introduce young people to the game.  We think that its worth the limitation on the use of trolleys and the extra cost.

SL

I always wondered if clubs that heavily support Evans Scholars can in some way become charities themselves.  Or at least a charity within the club.  I think its a totally different ball game for a club to encourage (demand?) caddies because of an over-riding cause ratehr than solely to have a caddie program.  I have no idea how it all would work, but it does strike me that promoting Evans Scholars is a very positive movement which deserves ssome sort of protection to allow the program to continue to thrive.  Charity has always been the back bone of American largesse and long may it continue.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

The only clubs I've seen that have really active caddie programs in this country are those that require caddies.  Otherwise you get a situation where one has to arrange for caddies in advance, a la Shel's extensive experience.  If a guy spending 20 grand a year at his club is sweating the 3 grand he spends on caddies he probably shouldn't be a member.  If a caddie isn't readily available one should be able to carry or use a pushcart.  Kids should be able to carry afternoons.  I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  Where is the modestly priced club with a full-time stocked caddie shack which Joe the Butcher can no longer afford because of the price of his pro jock?

P.S.  many clubs have reduced dues for seniors.

[BCowan]

''Where is the modestly priced club with a full-time stocked caddie shack which Joe the Butcher can no longer afford because of the price of his pro jock?''

I agree with many of your points.  Modestly priced clubs with caddie programs are not going to be found in Chicago or New York.  More caddie on call programs are probably going to be the future vs sitting in the caddie yard.  I have experienced 2 strong caddie programs in the Toledo area one that did not demand a member take a caddie and one that did.  It really comes down the club, their customs, and leadership. 

[SL_Solow]

Jud;  thanks for the comments.  Clearly we are on the same page.  Sean;  the Evans Scholar Foundation is already qualified as a charity.  It raises money for its scholarships through annual contributions (dues) from individuals.  They appoint directors at clubs who have 2 main jobs.  First, they make sure all of the club members make their annual contribution.  At our club, and many others, the contribution is automatic unless a member opts out.  There are very few opt outs.  The second job is to recruit suitable candidates from the caddie ranks.  The quality of the applicants is truly outstanding.

Given that the Evans Foundation is already a charity, and given the other activities that take place at a club, it would be nigh impossible to obtain charitable status for a club.  Additionally, the money paid to the caddy, even if part of the motivation is to support the program, is in exchange for a service.

Our club has dealt with this by setting up the Briarwood Schloarship Foundation.  We fund scholarships for employees and their relatives if they qualify based on length of service, need and qualifications.  While the stipends do not rival the full tuition, room and board offered by Evans, they are very useful.  We fund it via contributions and through an annual Foundation Day tournament and dinner which is the best attended event of the year.  Our members and trustees take the foundation and the grant process very seriously.  I have tried to encourage other clubs to utilize this model with very limited success. 

I agree that private charity is part of the backbone of this country.  At least at our club, we have taken the view that those who are in a position to enjoy a club should give back.  Otherwise, they may not be the type of members we want.  This view also extends to the admission process.  We think its the right way.

[BHoover]

I think the right approach is a market-based one.  I don't want to be required to take a cart or a caddie (nor can I afford it, quite frankly).  So the solution for me is to join a club that (a) I can afford and (b) allows me to choose whether to walk, use a cart or take a caddie.  Simple.  I suggest that if you feel strongly about issues such as trolleys, caddies, Evans Scholars, etc., you put your money where your mouth is and join a club that both meets your needs and is within your budget.

[Peter Pallotta]

SL - I haven't said this in a while, and I hope it doesn't embarrass you, but both on here and in PMs, you really do seem to embody and consistently demonstrate the very fine qualities I'm trying to learn how to embody and express myself. Your club and the people around you are fortunate to have you.  

Best
Peter

[Adam Lawrence]

Ben;  I appreciate your point of view but disagree.  as for those across the pond, the professional caddy, or even the member caddy is the rule. 

If 'by across the pond' you mean over here in the UK, I'd say what I've said before when caddy discussions have come up: there is NO caddy culture in British golf. Only at courses frequented in large numbers by high rolling tourists (basically the very top Scottish links) and a minuscule number of ultra high end courses around London - basically Queenwood, Wentworth and Sunningdale - are caddies even available without significant advance notice. 99 per cent of British golfers will never have taken a caddy in their lives.

[Jud_T]

Jason,

As an aside, for full disclosure it does appear that Radrick Farms, which is now fully under the auspices of the University of Michigan athletic department, did turn a profit of $130k, at least in fiscal year 2012 (1.73mm revenue vs. 1.6mm expenses):

http://annarborchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Athletics-FY2013-Budget-Presentation-6-21-final-v.2.pdf

[BCowan]

Jud

   thank you


SL

    We agree for the most part, i plan on doing HHH for Evens or Solich this year. 

[Lou_Duran]

I wonder if Mr. Solow, if he had the power to do so, would allow a simple secret ballot on this one question at his club AND live with the results?

Preface:

"Members of the various committees and boards of the club believe that the use of caddies is important for a variety of reasons including the support of the Evans Scholarship Program.  We believe that without the use of caddies being mandatory, the club's support for the program will be greatly diminished, possibly leading to the demise of the program."

Question:

"Yes or no, should members and their guests be required to use and pay for a caddie when they play golf at the club?"   

[BCowan]

BCowan -

Last year the Olympic Club approved usage of 3-wheel push carts on its Ocean Course.

Within the last 3-4 years, Lake Merced CC, the California GC, the Sonoma GC and the Monterey Peninsula CC have all approved usage of 3-wheel push carts.

DT

DT

     Has the approval of trolleys at Olympic hurt the caddie program there?  Do you have caddie scholarship programs in Cali?  I want to steer this back to the title of the thread of courses allowing trolleys that used to not allow them.

[SL_Solow]

Lou,  First, carts are allowed at our club. Caddies are not mandatory, notwithstanding my preference. Second we are very democratic, any and all issues are open for votes.  Third, our rules are explained in depth before anyone joins.  Fourth, our scholarship event is entirely voluntary and is oversubscibed.  Fifth, no one, except Board Members, learns about Evans opt outs and they are minimal.  You can draw your own conclusions.  Since your proposition does not reflect our policy, it would never be presented.  The implication that our policy is somehow being imposed (and that is clearly what you implied) does not reflect the views of our membership which I know very well.  I suppose I might ask how you would vote but as you are not a member, that would hardly be fair.  Finally, I have no problem letting the marketplace speak.  Those who do not want a club with these policies should find one that suits their preferences. But don't assume that because a club adopts policies that are contrary to those espoused by outsiders, the club must be subject to the whims  or dictates of a minority.  That doesn't describe our club or, I might add, many others in our area that have similar policies.

[David_Tepper]

"Has the approval of trolleys at Olympic hurt the caddie program there?  Do you have caddie scholarship programs in Cali?  I want to steer this back to the title of the thread of courses allowing trolleys that used to not allow them."

BCowan -

Sorry, but I cannot speak with absolute authority to answer your questions. But, to the best of my knowledge -

1) the Olympic Club has a combination of a relatively small number of full-time caddies supplemented by high-school kids in the summer months and on weekends. I do not know if or how the introduction of push carts on the Ocean Course has impacted the caddie program. My sense is only a relatively small percentage of golfers at Olympic take caddies on either course.    

2) I am not aware of caddie scholarship programs in California similar to the Evans program.  

DT

[Peter Pallotta]

Lou - it strikes me that, as Pat M and others have noted countless times regarding a wide range of matters (e.g. from membership categories to maintenance practices) "it's a private club, so what they do is their own affair." Prospective members have the freedom not to join if they are aware of practices/principles/an ethos not to their liking; and existing members can work to influence those policies and practices, or choose to leave, or - in this case -- even "opt out" of a specific program the club supports. What could be fairer? And what business is it of yours or mine or anyone elses what that club or its members do? Yes, as noted, if I had the means and opportunity, I'd be proud to be a member of SL's club and to support that program; if someone else wouldn't, there are plenty of other places to play/become a member at. What would a secret ballot of members 'prove'? And why should the club/members prove anything to us outsiders? (Hey, why don't we ask Augusta National leadership if they'd be willing to hold a secret poll to determine if members want to automatically contribute to absurdly high maintenance practices for the sake of the tv exposure one week a year? My point: I grow tired of the notion that excess and selfishness and exclusivity and greed are all rights to be protected, while our impulses towards serving a broader good need to be carefully scrutinized lest we prove ourselves dictators). It's a free market, right?  

Peter

Edit: just saw SL's more reasoned and reasonable answer.

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